VITALI KLITSCHKO HAS SURGERY ON HIS BACK

[Goz]

Interesting to read such a damning critique on the state of drug abuse amongst Heavyweights by someone as knowledgable as you clearly are.

As a matter of interest do you think fighters in lower classes use steroids too or is just the Heavyweights?

Its hard to tell with lower weight fighters because its quite possible to have an amazing smaller physique naturally. As a boxer you also want to fit into the lowest weight class you can without. I'd say lower weight boxers using diuretics/stimulants more than steroids. But low androgenic steroids will definately make a fighter be more explosive in their weight class.

The obvious cases are the 1s who have tested positive like Vargas/RJJ and the Mosley balco connection.

Some fighters look a little unnatural to me like Urango and Pacquaio but they could be genetic freaks of nature. Steroids are very easy to get hold of in the Philipines and Latin America though.

Most fighters make good use of performance enhancing supplements anyway and those are legal but can allot to a performance.

Yeah I guess with the lighter guys they would be looking at un-natural means of aiding recovery without weight gain, thus being able to train hard and still make the weight.

Someone like Mosely is a bit different because he jumped up from Lightweight to Welter/Junior-Middle and didn't appear to suffer much in the way of conceding strength to his peers at the new weight class..

[knockout]

The typical caucasian doesnt stack up well at heavyweight, the black fighters are more likely to be athletic at that size.

How?

How? I am no scientist so cannot explain it......but its the same reason the Mexicans and far east fighters are so succesful at lower weights.

Their body type performs better at the weight generally!

When was the last time we saw a "natural", athletic, white heavyweight boxer?? I struggle to think of one.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

The typical caucasian doesnt stack up well at heavyweight, the black fighters are more likely to be athletic at that size.

How?

How? I am no scientist so cannot explain it......but its the same reason the Mexicans and far east fighters are so succesful at lower weights.

Their body type performs better at the weight generally!

When was the last time we saw a "natural", athletic, white heavyweight boxer?? I struggle to think of one.

Have you watched HW boxing recently, all the best HWs are white these days

Wlad Klitchko, Vitali Klitchko, Chagaev, Ibragimov.

[knockout]

How?

How? I am no scientist so cannot explain it......but its the same reason the Mexicans and far east fighters are so succesful at lower weights.

Their body type performs better at the weight generally!

When was the last time we saw a "natural", athletic, white heavyweight boxer?? I struggle to think of one.

Have you watched HW boxing recently, all the best HWs are white these days

Wlad Klitchko, Vitali Klitchko, Chagaev, Ibragimov.

......and most people agree they are pretty crap compared to their predecessors!!!

Plus atleast 2 of them you said were on juice (and I agreed with), which was the initial point I was making.

[DavidPayne]

He was never any good anyway.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

How? I am no scientist so cannot explain it......but its the same reason the Mexicans and far east fighters are so succesful at lower weights.

Their body type performs better at the weight generally!

When was the last time we saw a "natural", athletic, white heavyweight boxer?? I struggle to think of one.

Have you watched HW boxing recently, all the best HWs are white these days

Wlad Klitchko, Vitali Klitchko, Chagaev, Ibragimov.

......and most people agree they are pretty crap compared to their predecessors!!!

Plus atleast 2 of them you said were on juice (and I agreed with), which was the initial point I was making.

Well Vitali and Wlad arent definately on juice, they are no more obviously on juice than Holyfield/Tyson who were there great predocessors. Juice is a large part of sports today

Great fighters dont come along that often but Wlad looks like standing at the top of this division for a long time unless another white fighter in Povetkin can dethrone him

[knockout]

I think there is enough evidence in sport (boxing, basketball, NFL) to suggests the black athletes are better at the bigger sizes :-)

Basketball you hardly ever get a white centre with real skills, they are normally too slow or not strong enough.

Boxings heavyweight division has been dominated by black fighters practically since day one (apart from when Dempsey's team drew the colour line).

NFL I am no expert in this sport but a quick look at a game tells you proportionally there are a lot more black athletes than white.

All the above cannot be purely coincidence anymore than the smaller weight categories in boxing being dominated by asians and mexicans.

[jamesmcdonnell]

There are definetly genetic factors involved.

Black men and women have proportionally longer arms and legs, and tend to have more fast twitch fibres.

Mexicans tend to be pretty short though, as are south east asians, so they are going to be lighter my that very fact.

[ebeneezer]

A
Therefore you get smaller white guys with the necessary skills, juicing up to get the necessary size.

Yeah like Holyfield, Tyson, Roy Jones (at heavyweight), McCline, Briggs ect.

[ebeneezer]

I think there is enough evidence in sport (boxing, basketball, NFL) to suggests the black athletes are better at the bigger sizes :-)

Basketball you hardly ever get a white centre with real skills, they are normally too slow or not strong enough.

Boxings heavyweight division has been dominated by black fighters practically since day one (apart from when Dempsey's team drew the colour line).

NFL I am no expert in this sport but a quick look at a game tells you proportionally there are a lot more black athletes than white.

All the above cannot be purely coincidence anymore than the smaller weight categories in boxing being dominated by asians and mexicans.

1: How do you explain the American Olympic basketball team getting absolutley thrashed by all white Italy, Lithuania, Spain and Portugal several times?

2 : The NFL is filled to the brim with roid abusers and outside of NFL Europe is a domestic American sport. How about Rugby which is played on a world level without padding and helmets and requires greater stamina?

3 : How do you explain the gigantic boom of European dominance from middleweight to heavyweight?

I believe it's 18 out of 24 belt holders from middle to heavy are Europeans?

This would have happened years ago if the soviet union fell before it did. Eastern bloc fighters always did outstandingly well in the amatuers but due to communism could not turn pro.

4: you are a dipshit

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think there is enough evidence in sport (boxing, basketball, NFL) to suggests the black athletes are better at the bigger sizes :-)

Basketball you hardly ever get a white centre with real skills, they are normally too slow or not strong enough.

Boxings heavyweight division has been dominated by black fighters practically since day one (apart from when Dempsey's team drew the colour line).

NFL I am no expert in this sport but a quick look at a game tells you proportionally there are a lot more black athletes than white.

All the above cannot be purely coincidence anymore than the smaller weight categories in boxing being dominated by asians and mexicans.

1: How do you explain the American Olympic basketball team getting absolutley thrashed by all white Italy, Lithuania, Spain and Portugal several times?

2 : The NFL is filled to the brim with roid abusers and outside of NFL Europe is a domestic American sport. How about Rugby which is played on a world level without padding and helmets and requires greater stamina?

3 : How do you explain the gigantic boom of European dominance from middleweight to heavyweight?

I believe it's 18 out of 24 belt holders from middle to heavy are Europeans?

This would have happened years ago if the soviet union fell before it did. Eastern bloc fighters always did outstandingly well in the amatuers but due to communism could not turn pro.

4: you are a dipshit

Most of the African-American athletes are going into different sports now. American football, basketball, baseball are sucking up most of the talent. It's easier money than getting smashed in the head, and they can get a scholarship through college on the basis of it, something you cannot do with boxing.

Rugby is a different sport to boxing and requires different physical ability, same goes for basketball.

The point that Knockout was making, was that the massive black dudes in basketball, were far more athletic than their white counterparts, more flexible, can jump higher etc.

That there are genetic differences between races is undeniable.

For instance, how do you account for the fact that no caucasian sprinter has ever broken 10 seconds, despite their being a huge award on offer for the last decade.

Why do the Ethiopians and Kenyans excel at long distance running, while the middle distances are dominated by the Moroccans, Algerians, and Europeans?

How come the northern Europeans from around the nordic countries have dominated strong man events for almost the entire history of the event?

Economic factors obviously play a large part, which is why the former Eastern Bloc countries are excelling in a lot of sporting areas lately, they are hungry and have the opportunity for the first time.

[knockout]

James, dont bother yourself.

Some people will never accept there are genetic differences between races.

They get all insecure and start insulting people by calling them "dipshit".

As James has kindly answered a number of your points I will just add a little bit more.

1)The American Olympic basketball team has lost a few games, yes. Thrashed, I dont ever remember that.

USA came 3rd in 2004 losing to Argentina by 8 points in the Semi and then beating Lithuania in the Bronze medal game.

USA won in 2000, 1996, 1992.

All this despite most national teams having played together for years, where as the US team is normally thrown together last minute and the guys don't gel at all.

2) Rugby, in the UK, Union is played predominantly at posh schools by posh boys, very few black pupils found in those schools. Rugby league again played mainly in Northern England away from the areas of high black population, however Martin Offiah, Ellery Hanley and Jason Robinson weren't bad were they.

Lets not even mention the All Black team shall we...

3) James has made the point about black athletes choosing other sports in USA which has led to the decline of US boxing generally.


4) The communists countries did well in Amateur boxing I agree, but more often than not they were grown men fighting teenagers from western countries.... Greatest boxing olympians.... Savon, Stevenson and Hungarian Papp.

If you look at recent winners of the heavyweight/super heavyweight winners (which was what my initial post was about "the bigger athletes")
you can see a definate skew. of the last 11 gold medal winners, 9 went to black fighters.

Povetkin
Harrison
Wlad
Balado
Lennox
Biggs
Stevenson x 3
George Foreman
Joe Frazier

[yiddo14]

To be fair knockout...the all blacks are made up of white and polynesian guys.Not blacks.

[ebeneezer]

For instance, how do you account for the fact that no caucasian sprinter has ever broken 10 seconds, despite their being a huge award on offer for the last decade.

James,

A white South African Dean Wicks just ran a 10.00

"Running in Saturday's 100m final, Newton flashed across the finish
line virtually deadlocked with his Fast Feet clubmate and training
partner, Dean Wicks, who was timed at an equally impressive
10.00sec.

Fast Feet coaches, Mark Labuschagne and Victor Vaz, said they were
"astounded" when they glanced at their stop-watches to see that
both showed sub-10 seconds.


'We could not even separate them visually'
"We could not even separate them visually," said Vaz.

Labuschagne said that he had been "ecstatic" at the time.

"I was astounded to learn that the official hand-held stop-watch
time was 9.78 which compared with my time of 9.93 and Victor's
9.78 while the official electronic time showed up as 9.95.

"Now we face an agonising week or so to see if ASA are going to
ratify the time, and if they do so, it will not only be a new South
African record, but one of the fastest times for the 100m."

The official ASA record for the 100m stands at 10.06sec and was set
in 1988 by Johan Rossouw.


'I knew it was a fast race'
Labuschagne said that Wicks's time of 10.00sec for the 100m was
probably the fastest time ever recorded for a white athlete, and was
all the more remarkable as he had achieved it within two hours of
having won the 200m final in 20.33sec."

Jeremy Wariner is a sprinter you should look out for as well.

As for you other points :

The excuse that European boxers are doing well in the heavier divisions because blacks have suddenly moved on to other sports is silly and has been debunked on a thread on the current forum on this site. The reason for the huge upsurge in their success is simply because since the fall of communism more of them are competing.
Eastern Europe in churning out boxing talent like a convyer belt.

Didn't boxing always compete for the best athletes with the NFL and NBA in America for decades?
Why wasn't that excuse used for the horrendous shape of the heavyweight division in the pre Tyson early 1980s?

Futhermore a quick glance at the American Olympic boxing team shows that 9 out of 11 members are black.

And I never tried to deny that there aren't racial differences in sports. I just wanted to point out that they are not as pronounced as people make them out to be.

The problem isn't that people don't acknowledge racial differences in sports, it's that
people don't want to admit that different advantages and disadvantages
can be negated.
They also don't want to admit there is a large crossover
between human groups when it comes to physiological traits. If anyone thinks that there isn't one, just one black who is capable of winning the world's strongest man contest or a white who is capable of running 10.00 they're crazy.

BTW - the muscle fiber differences aren't what most people think. There
are two types of fast twitch fiber (yes, look it up) and whites on average
tend to have more of the type geared for strength, while blacks on average tend to have the type suited for speed.
But the differences aren't major, and we're dealing with averages, a concept which I have to admit a
lot of people do not grasp.

Also my post the other night was made late and poorly put together and I apologize to knockout for being out of line.

I hope this clears up my points on the matter a bit better.