BoxRec

dempseyfire wrote:
22 . . .doesn't matter. Just b/c he'd defeated good fighters doesn't mean he was in his prime. At 22 he had not yet reached his physical prime nor peak level of experience/ring intelligence. By 1938-39 this had changed.

As many know, I'm not a Klitschko fan, but I'm not going to start claiming Wladimir was in his prime at 22 when he lost to Purrity.

Hmmm ....comparing Klitschko with Louis and Ross Purrity with Max Schmeling ...and comparing that two Fights does not convince me.

Joe Louis was not at his absolute peak in '36, but he was already in his career prime imo. If it was not for the Schmeling-Fight we wouldn't have this discussion at all.

Louis physical condition (he was well trained and 6 lbs heavier than Schmeling) and level of experience (27 Fights with tough opposition) was not the reason he lost the Fight.

The reason he lost was Max Schmeling's genious fight plan and brilliant performance that night.

Decagon wrote:

silkov wrote:Louis got koed yes, but look at the guys he beat and how he dominated the division for over a decade, its foolish to even begin to compare Louis with Lewis!!... 8)

Louis twice lost his title to former middleweights, just like John Ruiz.

Louis actually never "lost" his title to anyone.

Louis was in his career prime in 1936 at 22? . . that's an awfully long prime . . .since he was clearly at top form until he went into the army in World War II in 1942.

28 pro fights . . in under 2 years as a professional!!! Was Larry Holmes in his prime in 1975? Or Ali in his prime in 1962? Give me a break.

Yes Schmeling fought a great fight but Louis was still green and had much to learn, which he did after the loss.

dempseyfire wrote:
Louis was in his career prime in 1936 at 22? . . that's an awfully long prime . . .since he was clearly at top form until he went into the army in World War II in 1942.

28 pro fights . . in under 2 years as a professional!!! Was Larry Holmes in his prime in 1975? Or Ali in his prime in 1962? Give me a break.

Yes Schmeling fought a great fight but Louis was still green and had much to learn, which he did after the loss.

Joe Louis have had an awfully long prime, yes. And therefore he was Champ for an awfully long time too.

Did you see his fights against Primo Carnera and Max Baer ? That was already a prime Louis, not at his career-peak but already in his prime.

Who did Ali beat till 1962 besides an Old Archie Moore ? And who did Larry Holmes beat till 1975 ? Nothing to compare with two former Champions and some more topnotchers I guess. In 1936 -before the Fight with Max- Louis was already the "unbeatable Brown Bomber", the Number One Contender behind a lucky Champion. No one could stop him on his way to he throne. The fight against Schmeling was a setback like Alis loss to Frazier in 1971 (in 1971 Ali was in his prime I suppose). :P

Decagon wrote:

silkov wrote:Louis got koed yes, but look at the guys he beat and how he dominated the division for over a decade, its foolish to even begin to compare Louis with Lewis!!... 8)

Louis twice lost his title to former middleweights, just like John Ruiz.

When did Louis lose his title in the ring??.... when he fought Charles he had already given up the title undefeated champion, I dont remember a second time Louis lost his title either??? ....
and to compare Louis to Ruiz is just foolish... Ruiz wouldnt have gone 5 rounds with Joe...

Decagon wrote:He lost the Linear title to Charles, a former middleweight, just like John Ruiz lost the WBC World Heavyweight Championship to Roy Jones, a former middleweight. Louis got the shit beat out of him by Jersey Joe Walcott, but was able to keep his title, just like John Ruiz got the shit kicked out of him by James Toney, but managed to keep his title.

right!... toney = Walcott!....

Decagon wrote:He lost the Linear title to Charles, a former middleweight, just like John Ruiz lost the WBC World Heavyweight Championship to Roy Jones, a former middleweight. Louis got the shit beat out of him by Jersey Joe Walcott, but was able to keep his title, just like John Ruiz got the shit kicked out of him by James Toney, but managed to keep his title.

Clever.

However,

Walcott was only at middleweight when he was 17 and under!! James Toney was a career middle/super middle who's prime in his mid 20s was at 168.

As Walcott actually grew into a man he wouldn't have been able to make middleweight without spending a night at the hospital.

dempseyfire wrote:

Decagon wrote:He lost the Linear title to Charles, a former middleweight, just like John Ruiz lost the WBC World Heavyweight Championship to Roy Jones, a former middleweight. Louis got the shit beat out of him by Jersey Joe Walcott, but was able to keep his title, just like John Ruiz got the shit kicked out of him by James Toney, but managed to keep his title.

Clever.

However,

Walcott was only at middleweight when he was 17 and under!! James Toney was a career middle/super middle who's prime in his mid 20s was at 168.

As Walcott actually grew into a man he wouldn't have been able to make middleweight without spending a night at the hospital.

I wouldnt humour Dec by actually taking him seriously... you know I've heard whispers that Louis was a middleweight himself at one point!!!...

Lennox fought all the best boxers from his era, you can't ask more than that. The only one he didn't fight was Bowe, & we all know Riddick was sh*t scared of Lewis.

Bowe is one of the most overrated fighters ever, not Lewis.

Wheelchair wrote:Lennox fought all the best boxers from his era, you can't ask more than that. The only one he didn't fight was Bowe, & we all know Riddick was sh*t scared of Lewis.

Bowe is one of the most overrated fighters ever, not Lewis.

i agree.lewis beat every available fighter out there.
bowe was afraid of lewis yet people rate riddick higher

Decagon wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Decagon wrote:He lost the Linear title to Charles, a former middleweight, just like John Ruiz lost the WBC World Heavyweight Championship to Roy Jones, a former middleweight. Louis got the shit beat out of him by Jersey Joe Walcott, but was able to keep his title, just like John Ruiz got the shit kicked out of him by James Toney, but managed to keep his title.

Clever.

However,

Walcott was only at middleweight when he was 17 and under!! James Toney was a career middle/super middle who's prime in his mid 20s was at 168.

As Walcott actually grew into a man he wouldn't have been able to make middleweight without spending a night at the hospital.

Come on. Toney entered the ring at 180 or 190 when he fought at 168. That's how much Walcott weighed during much of his career.

Walcott didnt eat like a pig and dose himself up to the eye balls with steriods!... :x

MEISINGER wrote:

Wheelchair wrote:Lennox fought all the best boxers from his era, you can't ask more than that. The only one he didn't fight was Bowe, & we all know Riddick was sh*t scared of Lewis.

Bowe is one of the most overrated fighters ever, not Lewis.

i agree.lewis beat every available fighter out there.
bowe was afraid of lewis yet people rate riddick higher

They do? Who the hell does that?

The simple answer is that Lennox cannot be rated as a great heavyweight as he is not American and America is the only country that produces good boxers.

Decagon wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Decagon wrote:He lost the Linear title to Charles, a former middleweight, just like John Ruiz lost the WBC World Heavyweight Championship to Roy Jones, a former middleweight. Louis got the shit beat out of him by Jersey Joe Walcott, but was able to keep his title, just like John Ruiz got the shit kicked out of him by James Toney, but managed to keep his title.

Clever.

However,

Walcott was only at middleweight when he was 17 and under!! James Toney was a career middle/super middle who's prime in his mid 20s was at 168.

As Walcott actually grew into a man he wouldn't have been able to make middleweight without spending a night at the hospital.

Come on. Toney entered the ring at 180 or 190 when he fought at 168. .

Source??

There's a difference between someone who trains down to a completely ripped 193, and a guy who trains down to 168 and can eat and drink up to 180 come fight time (and eat his way WAY beyond that sometimes). Walcott was a natural Heavyweight and a much stronger/bigger man than Toney. Walcott at 23 years old wouldn't have been able to make 159 for his life.

Decagon wrote:James Toney never got knocked out by Abe Simon.

eeeerrr yeh, but had they fought he probably would have. Joe Louis didnt get koed by Abe Simon either for your information!!....

Decagon wrote:A ton of people like to say that if Lewis had fought Bowe in 1993, Bowe would have won. Bowe did look incredible in that first Holyfield fight. It's too bad that he never looked that good again. That version of Bowe would have given any heavyweight in the history of the sport trouble.

Topics about Lewis being overrated come up every few months on this forum, because no one really likes him. He's not American and he's not really British, Canadian or Jamaican, either. The people who like Lewis (such as I) are purists for the sport.

Why are you a boxing purist just because you cant see the flaws in Lennox Lewis??...... watching him hug his way through many of his big fights was anything but pure to me...

Just a few scattered remarks here.

I've only seen Lewis-Holyfield II once, but I thought Lewis won. Perhaps it'll be worth seeing again.

Someone made the comment that Lewis should have KO'd Tyson sooner... Lewis said he carried Mike a bit to avenge the bite he says he got from Tyson on the leg.

I don't see how anyone could compare the right hand Lewis took against Rahman to the left hooks Louis took against Baer and Galento. There were certainly some Heavyweight champions who would have gotten up from that punch, but plenty wouldn't have. The McCall stoppage was questionable to me. I agreed with what Merchant said after the fight was stopped, that Lewis may very well have gotten stopped if the fight had been allowed to go on, but they could have let it go for a few more seconds. Maybe Lewis survives the round, maybe he doesn't, but it would have been worth seeing.

Lewis hit a couple of bumps but he beat every man he ever faced, and he was dominant in most of his performances. I can see how some Heavyweight champions in history could beat him, but, overall, if he fights the right fight he could beat a lot of them. His size and power and boxing skill isn't easy to dismiss.

I would rank Lewis ahead of Holyfield, who I tend to rank somewhere from 7-10, so I don't see how Lewis could not be in the top 10 all time at Heavyweight. Perhaps if I re-watch the rematch my opinion will change, I'd have to see that fight again.

It was a close fight. I scored it a draw. But i am a holyhugger.

Lewis is made as far as I see it.
No question at all.
Other than Riddick Bowe, he fought and beat everyone he faced.
Lewis has the respect here.

Decagon wrote:

silkov wrote:Why are you a boxing purist just because you cant see the flaws in Lennox Lewis??...... watching him hug his way through many of his big fights was anything but pure to me...

Of course Lewis has flaws. All fighters do. I have him right at #10, and that's a perfectly fair assessment of him, given his record and abilities.

I dont see how you can rate him in the top ten when he had such mediocre opposition, and still managed to get koed twice even then???.... top 20 yes, but he fought too poor opposition and had too erratic a career to merit being in the top 10... or even 15...

I Feel Fine wrote:Just a few scattered remarks here.

I've only seen Lewis-Holyfield II once, but I thought Lewis won. Perhaps it'll be worth seeing again.

Someone made the comment that Lewis should have KO'd Tyson sooner... Lewis said he carried Mike a bit to avenge the bite he says he got from Tyson on the leg.

I don't see how anyone could compare the right hand Lewis took against Rahman to the left hooks Louis took against Baer and Galento. There were certainly some Heavyweight champions who would have gotten up from that punch, but plenty wouldn't have. The McCall stoppage was questionable to me. I agreed with what Merchant said after the fight was stopped, that Lewis may very well have gotten stopped if the fight had been allowed to go on, but they could have let it go for a few more seconds. Maybe Lewis survives the round, maybe he doesn't, but it would have been worth seeing.

Lewis hit a couple of bumps but he beat every man he ever faced, and he was dominant in most of his performances. I can see how some Heavyweight champions in history could beat him, but, overall, if he fights the right fight he could beat a lot of them. His size and power and boxing skill isn't easy to dismiss.

I would rank Lewis ahead of Holyfield, who I tend to rank somewhere from 7-10, so I don't see how Lewis could not be in the top 10 all time at Heavyweight. Perhaps if I re-watch the rematch my opinion will change, I'd have to see that fight again.

I don't know why Rahman's KO punch of Lewis is awarded some mythical status. Rahman was a decent puncher but he landed flush right hands on the likes of Holyfield, Maskaev, Toney, Ruiz, Al Cole etc. without them even getting wobbly. Lewis is the only world class HW Rahman ever knocked out unless you want to count Hasim stopping an exhausted Corrie Sanders on his feet.

Baer (45 KOs in 50 wins including KOs over Galento, Simon, Mann) and Galento ( 56 knockouts . . more KOs than Rahman has had fights, including over the normally durable Nova and Ettore etc.) on the other hand, were certified one-punch KO fighters.

And I'm not even including Buddy's older brother Max, whose punching power I won't even defend here.

Same situation with McCall . . .who did he ever knock out? Akinwande? Damiani??

That's why those losses are so damaging. If Lewis had been starched by Baer or Galento level-punchers it wouldn't look so bad.

Basically Lewis getting stopped by McCall and Rahman is akin to if Holmes had benn knocked out by Roy Tiger Williams (McCall) and Renaldo Snipes (Rahman).

Imagine how much lower people would rank Holmes!

The punch that Rahman landed on Lewis was awesome. It was right on the button, about as perfect as you can land. There are only a handful of heavyweight champions in history who may have remained on their feet after that punch.

Rahman didn't land a punch like this against Cole,Ruiz, and Maskaev. If he had, he would have knocked them out as well. You don't always land the haymaker in every fight. (Of course the great punchers do it a high % of the time)

Max Baer was ragrded as a great puncher, however his ko % isn't anything special. He was unable to stop a lot of guys who weren't that good. The main reason? Because in some of his fights he didn't land his best shot on the button.

Rahman did deck Sanders twice. Sanders had a pretty good chin. Vitali Klitschko teed off on Sanders for 8 rounds and couldn't do that. Rahman had many faults as a fighter and was very inconsistent. However, his best shot was pretty good.

If you are going to say that its a big deal for Buddy Baer to ko people like Galento, Simon and Mann and it's a big deal for Galento to stop Nova and Ettore and a string of tomato cans, then yes it's a big deal for McCall to ko Akinwande and Damiani and for Rahman to stop Sanders.

This isn't to say that the Rahman and McCall fights should be held against Lewis. They should be. However, that doesn't mean that Lewis wasn't a great fighter or had a weak chin. He had too many other fights against hard punchers and was never knocked down and rarely hurt.

I don't understand your comment about Larry Holmes. Did someone say that Lewis should be ranked ahead of Holmes? If they did, then yes I agreee that Lewis shouldn't be ranked as high as Holmes.

You are right. I meant Sanders. I went back and edited it.

LL might not be the all time best... he didn't catch the status of Ali or Big George. But he was obviously the best in his era.

is LL overrated? I don't think so.

Ambling Alp wrote:The punch that Rahman landed on Lewis was awesome. It was right on the button, about as perfect as you can land. There are only a handful of heavyweight champions in history who may have remained on their feet after that punch.

Rahman didn't land a punch like this against Cole,Ruiz, and Maskaev. If he had, he would have knocked them out as well. You don't always land the haymaker in every fight. (Of course the great punchers do it a high % of the time)

Max Baer was ragrded as a great puncher, however his ko % isn't anything special. He was unable to stop a lot of guys who weren't that good. The main reason? Because in some of his fights he didn't land his best shot on the button.

Rahman did deck Sanders twice. Sanders had a pretty good chin. Vitali Klitschko teed off on Sanders for 8 rounds and couldn't do that. Rahman had many faults as a fighter and was very inconsistent. However, his best shot was pretty good.

If you are going to say that its a big deal for Buddy Baer to ko people like Galento, Simon and Mann and it's a big deal for Galento to stop Nova and Ettore and a string of tomato cans, then yes it's a big deal for McCall to ko Akinwande and Damiani and for Rahman to stop Maskaev.

This isn't to say that the Rahman and McCall fights should be held against Lewis. They should be. However, that doesn't mean that Lewis wasn't a great fighter or had a weak chin. He had too many other fights against hard punchers and was never knocked down and rarely hurt.

I don't understand your comment about Larry Holmes. Did someone say that Lewis should be ranked ahead of Holmes? If they did, then yes I agreee that Lewis shouldn't be ranked as high as Holmes.

Sorry, so Rahman got his best punch off ONCE vs Lewis and never landed that punch vs any of his other top level opponents in his entire career??

Baer might have gone the distance vs a few C grade fighters, but he knocked out/floored more than just ONE top level HW.

Hasim even landed a right hand with a little running start on Holyfield like he did Lennox and Evander just stood there with a little smirk on his face. Rahman also landed several BIG right hand bombs on Oleg in their two fights and Maskaev, who got starched by Johnson, T-Rex, and Whitaker, didn't even go down.

Sanders a pretty good chin? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6_BPrWdN4

Vitali also took 8 rounds of continual hammering on Danny Williams before the ref finally stopped the fight. Vitali despite his KO percentage (vs mostly journeyman) was not close to being a one punch knockout artist. Evenso Rahman scored two flash KDs on Sanders and only got the TKO when he was throwing a flurry at Corrie and Sanders was so tired he couldn't even fire back.

Rahman is a typical B grade level puncher but to say that punch KO's most Heavyweights in history is pure BS. The Holmes analogy wasn't for people who rank Lewis ahead of Holmes but to put into perspective those two KO losses on Lennox's record. No other all time great HWs ever got knocked out by that level of fighter (and don't bring up Fireman Flynn . . that fight has fishy circumstances written all over it and in hundreds of fights Dempsey never lost another fight by KO)

Am I saying this to prove Lewis wasn't great or that he had a glass chin? No. But he is up there with that upper echelon of special elite HWs? No.

Decagon wrote:

silkov wrote:I dont see how you can rate him in the top ten when he had such mediocre opposition, and still managed to get koed twice even then???.... top 20 yes, but he fought too poor opposition and had too erratic a career to merit being in the top 10... or even 15...

... and yet you still think that Vitali Klitschko is a good fighter.

A good fighter yes, but you dont see me rating him in the all time top ten do you???...

Rahman never hit Toney as hard as he did Lewis. Rahman-Holyfield, again, is a fight I've only seen once and have a hazy memory of, but I don't recall any massive punches by Rahman. I could be wrong on that one.

I wouldn't say that Rahman is a great puncher, but he's not a bad puncher, and that was a flush shot.

I have to seriously question the idea that Galento hit Louis harder than Rahman hit Lewis. The Baer punch was a pretty big shot, but I don't know that Lewis gets knocked out by that punch.