1974 George Foreman -vs- 1988 Mike Tyson?

[DaveV17]

edit

[Robinson]

I think peak for peak Tyson wins this fight. He has the better speed, an under rated chin, fast and frustrating defence.

I think Tyson is a super powered Patterson...as opposed to being a poor mans Frazier.

Frazier would fight from a cross defence and bobbed and weaved from the waist, his jab was active, but wasn't solid and his hook was devastating. But maybe superficially they are similiar they really are different fighters.

Foreman was wild, powerful and had a hard but diesel like jab, it would plow through bone, glove and flesh provided the target was in its path. I think he would have trouble landing often. I am confident that he would frustrate and trap Tyson often with his ability to cut of the ring.

After the 5th round this fight would go more to Tyson, who at his best did have good late stage power and stamina.

I think post prime say 1991 Foreman vs 2002-5 Tyson, Big george wins in a decision.

Kym

[p4p1]

tyson would of shat himself over foreman and in the early rounds when his bombs didnt bother foreman and foreman hit him harder back he would lose confidene and eventually get KO'D i like tyson and think he is a great fighter just dont think he beats a prime foreman

[generic screen name]

Tyson could also walk into Foreman's uppercuts which were pretty deadly.

[BoxBuzz]

I hear there is a personal fear that Tyson had of Foreman that would have Tyson avoiding Foreman even in real time....A time when Mike would have had every advantage age wise.

[-KOKid-]

In fantasy fights people go way overboard with the "Tyson by KO within 3 rounds"

What true world class fighter did Tyson ever knockout inside 3 rounds besides Trevor Berbick and Tony Tubbs??

If he doesn't do it to Smith, Tucker, Tillis, Green, Ribalta, Bruno, and Ruddock, he's not doing it to George Foreman.

I think this is a good point.

It's an excellent point.
And to make it even more so - Tubbs wasn't even rated in the top 10 at the time he fought Tyson.

-KOKid-

[observer1]

Tyson would destroy him before round 9.

seen a few of his fights around 88 period. That guy was Fast, Bouncing all over the Place, nothing like how he was after 95. I was genuinely shocked.

I do think his ability to take Punches is shockingly Under-rated.

I mean, even over the hill Tyson fought Lewis, he took a Shocking Beating.

[chiricahua]

This is a very interesting and exciting discussion.
When a puncher fights another puncher there is a high KO risk.
This fight for me would be like Foreman Lyle without any doubt one of the best of all time.
Lion against lion.
Foreman was a slugger and prime tyson a boxer puncher.
If foreman cuts tyson, foreman could be the winner,post prison tyson couldn't stand the pression of a cut(holyfield-tyson1-tyson won the first 6 rounds but after the headbutt and cutt in the eye he lost the focus to keep the advantage)however i don't how prime tyson would react against this.
So let's assume a cut doesn't bother him and i think tyson would be the winner because with Cus D'Amato style Atack/defense and sustained counter punches combinations
george would be always in serious trouble.
Never forget against lyle george was saved by the bell,and floored 2 times by Lyle,
tyson was a more complete boxer than foreman, tyson had the power and speed to put foreman back like lyle joe never had that power, but tyson had great defense and offense however against a puncher it is hard to say what can happen 100% coz the little things like 1 or 2 punches at the right time would make the difference.
However i would give a 70% for tyson and 30% for george.
By the way Cus never said george would be the winner against tyson he only said George would be a serious challenge.
For the people who love to speak about green bone and tucker(never forget tyson won these fights by UD and these fighters only landed 1 significative punch during the whole fight) next time don't also forget to speak about george's bad days in the office too
Roberto Davila(21-15) UD in 8 rounds
Levi Forte (19-21-2)UD 10 rounds
Gregorio Manuel Peralta 77-5-8 UD 10 rounds
defeat against Jimmy Young by UD.
Finnaly George said about prime Mike Tyson "Tyson could punch like me and he had Ali's speed".
Please don't mention patterson in ali and tyson's speed league.
Tyson could thrown 28 punches in 9 seconds.
Cus stated Tyson was faster than Patterson.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Forget about whether or not they share a league together, Patterson's hands are flat-out faster than Tyson's.

Anyone with access to the second Johansson fight will see that Patterson had quicker hands than Tyson. & Louis. & Ali.

You also neglected (intentionally or not, I don't know) that those Tyson fights he went the distance in were in his prime. None of the fights Foreman went the distance in were during his prime. They were all pre or post-prime.

[chiricahua]

Forget about whether or not they share a league together, Patterson's hands are flat-out faster than Tyson's.

Anyone with access to the second Johansson fight will see that Patterson had quicker hands than Tyson. & Louis. & Ali.

You also neglected (intentionally or not, I don't know) that those Tyson fights he went the distance in were in his prime. None of the fights Foreman went the distance in were during his prime. They were all pre or post-prime.

I saw the second Johansson fight and i don't agree he had a sustained speed like tyson or ali but yes he was fast.
However,Mike tyson could throw 28 punches in 9 seconds and patterson couldn't both trained under Cus guidance however cus said tyson was faster no offense but i think Cus is above you.
when george fought against Roberto Davila(21-15) UD in 8 rounds
Levi Forte (19-21-2)UD 10 rounds and
Gregorio Manuel Peralta 77-5-8 UD 10 rounds he was in the prime unless you consider prime foreman after joe frazier fight,but in that case he only fought 10 times in the prime.
You neglected the fight with Lyle or george was out of his prime too???
Tell me since when do you consider a prime george.
Tyson went the distance but his opponents only landed a significative punch during the whole fight plus they only tried to survive(their own words)so as you know the most difficult ko comes when a good fighter fights to survive and tucker and bone were good fighters.

[Syntax Error]

The fight would have been as good as over, the minute that Foreman did not fall over from Tyson's first big punch.

Both men had excellent chins & not the greatest stamina, but George was tougher mentally than Mike.

Mike would have got demoralised & tired & George would end up crushing him in about 6.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"I saw the second Johansson fight and i don't agree he had a sustained speed like tyson or ali but yes he was fast.
However,Mike tyson could throw 28 punches in 9 seconds and patterson couldn't both trained under Cus guidance however cus said tyson was faster no offense but i think Cus is above you.
when george fought against Roberto Davila(21-15) UD in 8 rounds
Levi Forte (19-21-2)UD 10 rounds and
Gregorio Manuel Peralta 77-5-8 UD 10 rounds he was in the prime unless you consider prime foreman after joe frazier fight,but in that case he only fought 10 times in the prime.
You neglected the fight with Lyle or george was out of his prime too???
Tell me since when do you consider a prime george.
Tyson went the distance but his opponents only landed a significative punch during the whole fight plus they only tried to survive(their own words)so as you know the most difficult ko comes when a good fighter fights to survive and tucker and bone were good fighters." - Chiricahua

Yes, I'm sure Cus is above me. He said Foreman would beat Tyson. Should we take that into account here, as well?

I'm not sure where you're getting the notion Foreman was in his prime when he fought Lyle. If the fight took place two months after Foreman met Ali, it would have been a post-prime Foreman who --- as the footage will show --- was never the same fighter after losing to Ali. As it was, the fight with Lyle came after nearly two years of inactivity to boot. This was clearly a post-prime Foreman.

All that fight shows me is something I already knew. That Tyson had the punching power to hurt & KO Foreman. It also showed me Foreman, even when ring-rusted, could recover from serious punishment, get off the deck more than once, & go on to win. Tyson never got off the deck to win. Not even once, in a career that spanned some fifteen active years. He does not have the style or the mental stability. He was afraid to fight a 40+ Foreman. He would never climb into the ring with a 25-year-old Foreman.

As for those other fights, c'mon. Foreman didn't turn pro until the middle of 1969 & met Peralta in 1971. It's also worth pointing out that those three fights Foreman went the distance in were less than twelve rounds, unlike Tyson's early distance fights. From mid-to-late 1972 through to the Rumble In The Jungle would appear to be covering Foreman's best performances.

No one ever went the distance with a prime Foreman. I don't really hold the distance fights of Tyson against him because Smith held shamelessly, & he is entitled to otherwise have some off-nights. But the difference in competition faced by the men is astronomical. A prime Foreman is better than anyone Tyson faced, & with the exception of Lennox Lewis, is light-years ahead of any Tyson opponent.

[chiricahua]

"I saw the second Johansson fight and i don't agree he had a sustained speed like tyson or ali but yes he was fast.
However,Mike tyson could throw 28 punches in 9 seconds and patterson couldn't both trained under Cus guidance however cus said tyson was faster no offense but i think Cus is above you.
when george fought against Roberto Davila(21-15) UD in 8 rounds
Levi Forte (19-21-2)UD 10 rounds and
Gregorio Manuel Peralta 77-5-8 UD 10 rounds he was in the prime unless you consider prime foreman after joe frazier fight,but in that case he only fought 10 times in the prime.
You neglected the fight with Lyle or george was out of his prime too???
Tell me since when do you consider a prime george.
Tyson went the distance but his opponents only landed a significative punch during the whole fight plus they only tried to survive(their own words)so as you know the most difficult ko comes when a good fighter fights to survive and tucker and bone were good fighters." - Chiricahua

Yes, I'm sure Cus is above me. He said Foreman would beat Tyson. Should we take that into account here, as well?

I'm not sure where you're getting the notion Foreman was in his prime when he fought Lyle. If the fight took place two months after Foreman met Ali, it would have been a post-prime Foreman who --- as the footage will show --- was never the same fighter after losing to Ali. As it was, the fight with Lyle came after nearly two years of inactivity to boot. This was clearly a post-prime Foreman.

All that fight shows me is something I already knew. That Tyson had the punching power to hurt & KO Foreman. It also showed me Foreman, even when ring-rusted, could recover from serious punishment, get off the deck more than once, & go on to win. Tyson never got off the deck to win. Not even once, in a career that spanned some fifteen active years. He does not have the style or the mental stability. He was afraid to fight a 40+ Foreman. He would never climb into the ring with a 25-year-old Foreman.

As for those other fights, c'mon. Foreman didn't turn pro until the middle of 1969 & met Peralta in 1971. It's also worth pointing out that those three fights Foreman went the distance in were less than twelve rounds, unlike Tyson's early distance fights. From mid-to-late 1972 through to the Rumble In The Jungle would appear to be covering Foreman's best performances.

No one ever went the distance with a prime Foreman. I don't really hold the distance fights of Tyson against him because Smith held shamelessly, & he is entitled to otherwise have some off-nights. But the difference in competition faced by the men is astronomical. A prime Foreman is better than anyone Tyson faced, & with the exception of Lennox Lewis, is light-years ahead of any Tyson opponent.

Excellent points but you have wrong information there.
Cus never said foreman would beat tyson that is a rumor made by tyson haters if you don't believe me come to Catskill and Rooney Nadia or Stewart will tell you face to face.
Actually Cus said Tyson would be invincible if he could keep his fighting system principles and he also said "He throws every punch with bad intentions. Even at this stage of his career, nobody can match his power. I guarantee you, when he hits them, they’ll go down”-Cus D’Amato, Sept 5, 1985 Sports Illustrated, speaking of his unbeaten 19 year-old heavyweight prospect, Mike Tyson. One month later Cus was dead and by August 1987 Mike Tyson became the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.
Cus said tyson was the hardest puncher he ever saw.
Tyson never refused to fight old foreman that is another rumor,Morrison defeated Old Foreman and Alex stewart took old george to 10 rounds and mike destroyed Alex in 1 round so don't tell me mike couldn't beat or fight old george.
You are right tyson after prison was mentally weak but with pros in his corner like Atlas Rooney or Cus he would be another man much more confidant.
Just look what Atlas made with Moorer against Holyfield.
The only great fighters foreman defeated before Ali were Frazier and Norton but the question is Tyson could defeat Norton and Frazier oh yes Norton was spanked by every puncher he faced like a maggot which means tyson would beat him too.
Well against Frazier even if frazier was tougher mentally than mike people have to agree mike also had the power to destroy easily frazier.
Young george had stamina problems just watch chuvalo fight where later george confessed how tired he was in that fight.
About the Lyle fight,foreman made a great fight simply Lyle was a powerfull puncher you see george was a slugger and he fought like a slugger and he was physically fine simply Lyle had the power to hurt him and push him back and Lyle was a great fighter too.
Simply i can't see what would be different in this fight if foreman faced Lyle earlier.
Slugger against slugger lion against lion Lyle was 8 years older than george with 35 years old george had 27 so i would say it was a fair fight.
A prime Tyson is better than anyone young Foreman faced except Ali.
I think prime foreman would crush Lennox no doubt.
George refused to fight a second time against Lyle and he also refused to fight against Shavers and Larry Holmes,Foreman was tough, but as you can see foreman wasn't so strong mentally like you claim.

[dempseyfire]

"I saw the second Johansson fight and i don't agree he had a sustained speed like tyson or ali but yes he was fast.
However,Mike tyson could throw 28 punches in 9 seconds and patterson couldn't both trained under Cus guidance however cus said tyson was faster no offense but i think Cus is above you.
when george fought against Roberto Davila(21-15) UD in 8 rounds
Levi Forte (19-21-2)UD 10 rounds and
Gregorio Manuel Peralta 77-5-8 UD 10 rounds he was in the prime unless you consider prime foreman after joe frazier fight,but in that case he only fought 10 times in the prime.
You neglected the fight with Lyle or george was out of his prime too???
Tell me since when do you consider a prime george.
Tyson went the distance but his opponents only landed a significative punch during the whole fight plus they only tried to survive(their own words)so as you know the most difficult ko comes when a good fighter fights to survive and tucker and bone were good fighters." - Chiricahua

Yes, I'm sure Cus is above me. He said Foreman would beat Tyson. Should we take that into account here, as well?

I'm not sure where you're getting the notion Foreman was in his prime when he fought Lyle. If the fight took place two months after Foreman met Ali, it would have been a post-prime Foreman who --- as the footage will show --- was never the same fighter after losing to Ali. As it was, the fight with Lyle came after nearly two years of inactivity to boot. This was clearly a post-prime Foreman.

All that fight shows me is something I already knew. That Tyson had the punching power to hurt & KO Foreman. It also showed me Foreman, even when ring-rusted, could recover from serious punishment, get off the deck more than once, & go on to win. Tyson never got off the deck to win. Not even once, in a career that spanned some fifteen active years. He does not have the style or the mental stability. He was afraid to fight a 40+ Foreman. He would never climb into the ring with a 25-year-old Foreman.

As for those other fights, c'mon. Foreman didn't turn pro until the middle of 1969 & met Peralta in 1971. It's also worth pointing out that those three fights Foreman went the distance in were less than twelve rounds, unlike Tyson's early distance fights. From mid-to-late 1972 through to the Rumble In The Jungle would appear to be covering Foreman's best performances.

No one ever went the distance with a prime Foreman. I don't really hold the distance fights of Tyson against him because Smith held shamelessly, & he is entitled to otherwise have some off-nights. But the difference in competition faced by the men is astronomical. A prime Foreman is better than anyone Tyson faced, & with the exception of Lennox Lewis, is light-years ahead of any Tyson opponent.

Excellent points but you have wrong information there.
Cus never said foreman would beat tyson that is a rumor made by tyson haters if you don't believe me come to Catskill and Rooney Nadia or Stewart will tell you face to face.
Actually Cus said Tyson would be invincible if he could keep his fighting system principles and he also said "He throws every punch with bad intentions. Even at this stage of his career, nobody can match his power. I guarantee you, when he hits them, they’ll go down”-Cus D’Amato, Sept 5, 1985 Sports Illustrated, speaking of his unbeaten 19 year-old heavyweight prospect, Mike Tyson. One month later Cus was dead and by August 1987 Mike Tyson became the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.
Cus said tyson was the hardest puncher he ever saw.
Tyson never refused to fight old foreman that is another rumor,Morrison defeated Old Foreman and Alex stewart took old george to 10 rounds and mike destroyed Alex in 1 round so don't tell me mike couldn't beat or fight old george.
You are right tyson after prison was mentally weak but with pros in his corner like Atlas Rooney or Cus he would be another man much more confidant.
Just look what Atlas made with Moorer against Holyfield.
The only great fighters foreman defeated before Ali were Frazier and Norton but the question is Tyson could defeat Norton and Frazier oh yes Norton was spanked by every puncher he faced like a maggot which means tyson would beat him too.
Well against Frazier even if frazier was tougher mentally than mike people have to agree mike also had the power to destroy easily frazier.
Young george had stamina problems just watch chuvalo fight where later george confessed how tired he was in that fight.
About the Lyle fight,foreman made a great fight simply Lyle was a powerfull puncher you see george was a slugger and he fought like a slugger and he was physically fine simply Lyle had the power to hurt him and push him back and Lyle was a great fighter too.
Simply i can't see what would be different in this fight if foreman faced Lyle earlier.
Slugger against slugger lion against lion Lyle was 8 years older than george with 35 years old george had 27 so i would say it was a fair fight.
A prime Tyson is better than anyone young Foreman faced except Ali.
I think prime foreman would crush Lennox no doubt.
George refused to fight a second time against Lyle and he also refused to fight against Shavers and Larry Holmes,Foreman was tough, but as you can see foreman wasn't so strong mentally like you claim.

I'm not going to get into this debate as Tyson fans refuse to listen to reason. But your comment about Foreman being tired in the Chuvalo fight . . .huh? That fight lasted 3 rounds, Foreman kept up a TREMONDOUS pace and at the end of the fight was throwing about 40 hard punches to Chuvalo's face and body until his corner threw in the towel . . .that fight doesn't show Foreman getting tired at all.

[Tantum]

To the person who said "Tyson could throw 28 punches in 9 seconds"

I have a clip of Patterson throwing 4 BOMBS (ending in a devastating KD) in 6/10ths of a second.

That would (mathematically) equate to "60 punches in 9 seconds"


Learn what you speak of, before you open your trap.

[BoxBuzz]

To the person who said "Tyson could throw 28 punches in 9 seconds"

I have a clip of Patterson throwing 4 BOMBS (ending in a devastating KD) in 6/10ths of a second.

That would (mathematically) equate to "60 punches in 9 seconds"


Learn what you speak of, before you open your trap.

According to Tantum Floyd is officially faster that "The Flash". Something that DC comics has filed suit over in superior court regarding reputational damage to the Red Suited Super Hero.. With the financial damage imposed on Tantum via their top notch team of lawyers, we suspect that Tantum will no longer be able to afford the price of admission to the finer boxing establishments such as BoxRec.

Though I have seen the evidence regarding Patterson and it is compelling.

[chiricahua]

"I saw the second Johansson fight and i don't agree he had a sustained speed like tyson or ali but yes he was fast.
However,Mike tyson could throw 28 punches in 9 seconds and patterson couldn't both trained under Cus guidance however cus said tyson was faster no offense but i think Cus is above you.
when george fought against Roberto Davila(21-15) UD in 8 rounds
Levi Forte (19-21-2)UD 10 rounds and
Gregorio Manuel Peralta 77-5-8 UD 10 rounds he was in the prime unless you consider prime foreman after joe frazier fight,but in that case he only fought 10 times in the prime.
You neglected the fight with Lyle or george was out of his prime too???
Tell me since when do you consider a prime george.
Tyson went the distance but his opponents only landed a significative punch during the whole fight plus they only tried to survive(their own words)so as you know the most difficult ko comes when a good fighter fights to survive and tucker and bone were good fighters." - Chiricahua

Yes, I'm sure Cus is above me. He said Foreman would beat Tyson. Should we take that into account here, as well?

I'm not sure where you're getting the notion Foreman was in his prime when he fought Lyle. If the fight took place two months after Foreman met Ali, it would have been a post-prime Foreman who --- as the footage will show --- was never the same fighter after losing to Ali. As it was, the fight with Lyle came after nearly two years of inactivity to boot. This was clearly a post-prime Foreman.

All that fight shows me is something I already knew. That Tyson had the punching power to hurt & KO Foreman. It also showed me Foreman, even when ring-rusted, could recover from serious punishment, get off the deck more than once, & go on to win. Tyson never got off the deck to win. Not even once, in a career that spanned some fifteen active years. He does not have the style or the mental stability. He was afraid to fight a 40+ Foreman. He would never climb into the ring with a 25-year-old Foreman.

As for those other fights, c'mon. Foreman didn't turn pro until the middle of 1969 & met Peralta in 1971. It's also worth pointing out that those three fights Foreman went the distance in were less than twelve rounds, unlike Tyson's early distance fights. From mid-to-late 1972 through to the Rumble In The Jungle would appear to be covering Foreman's best performances.

No one ever went the distance with a prime Foreman. I don't really hold the distance fights of Tyson against him because Smith held shamelessly, & he is entitled to otherwise have some off-nights. But the difference in competition faced by the men is astronomical. A prime Foreman is better than anyone Tyson faced, & with the exception of Lennox Lewis, is light-years ahead of any Tyson opponent.

Excellent points but you have wrong information there.
Cus never said foreman would beat tyson that is a rumor made by tyson haters if you don't believe me come to Catskill and Rooney Nadia or Stewart will tell you face to face.
Actually Cus said Tyson would be invincible if he could keep his fighting system principles and he also said "He throws every punch with bad intentions. Even at this stage of his career, nobody can match his power. I guarantee you, when he hits them, they’ll go down”-Cus D’Amato, Sept 5, 1985 Sports Illustrated, speaking of his unbeaten 19 year-old heavyweight prospect, Mike Tyson. One month later Cus was dead and by August 1987 Mike Tyson became the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.
Cus said tyson was the hardest puncher he ever saw.
Tyson never refused to fight old foreman that is another rumor,Morrison defeated Old Foreman and Alex stewart took old george to 10 rounds and mike destroyed Alex in 1 round so don't tell me mike couldn't beat or fight old george.
You are right tyson after prison was mentally weak but with pros in his corner like Atlas Rooney or Cus he would be another man much more confidant.
Just look what Atlas made with Moorer against Holyfield.
The only great fighters foreman defeated before Ali were Frazier and Norton but the question is Tyson could defeat Norton and Frazier oh yes Norton was spanked by every puncher he faced like a maggot which means tyson would beat him too.
Well against Frazier even if frazier was tougher mentally than mike people have to agree mike also had the power to destroy easily frazier.
Young george had stamina problems just watch chuvalo fight where later george confessed how tired he was in that fight.
About the Lyle fight,foreman made a great fight simply Lyle was a powerfull puncher you see george was a slugger and he fought like a slugger and he was physically fine simply Lyle had the power to hurt him and push him back and Lyle was a great fighter too.
Simply i can't see what would be different in this fight if foreman faced Lyle earlier.
Slugger against slugger lion against lion Lyle was 8 years older than george with 35 years old george had 27 so i would say it was a fair fight.
A prime Tyson is better than anyone young Foreman faced except Ali.
I think prime foreman would crush Lennox no doubt.
George refused to fight a second time against Lyle and he also refused to fight against Shavers and Larry Holmes,Foreman was tough, but as you can see foreman wasn't so strong mentally like you claim.

I'm not going to get into this debate as Tyson fans refuse to listen to reason. But your comment about Foreman being tired in the Chuvalo fight . . .huh? That fight lasted 3 rounds, Foreman kept up a TREMONDOUS pace and at the end of the fight was throwing about 40 hard punches to Chuvalo's face and body until his corner threw in the towel . . .that fight doesn't show Foreman getting tired at all.

No you refuse to listen the truth even when the fighters state something I'm not a Tyson fan You are wrong Foreman said he was very tired in the round 3 in the ESPN Classic not me Chuvalo also said he was fine to continue actually he believed in the victory and he feels the referee had a wrong decision.

Though I have seen the evidence regarding Patterson and it is compelling

Sure and Cus is stupid coz he said Tyson was faster and the clip i'm talking about is real it was before the fight against Brown in the amateurs.
You can see it in the mike tyson story or in youtube.

I have a clip of Patterson throwing 4 BOMBS (ending in a devastating KD) in 6/10ths of a second.

That would (mathematically) equate to "60 punches in 9 seconds"

Tyson was the black superman he had inter-dimensional speed.

[Tantum]

I will agree on one thing regarding Patterson's speed.

He did not use it consistantly, he used it in bursts.

This is why many people thought/think Ali was faster than Patterson by viewing their fight.

But when those flashes* came they were amazing.




*Yes, I am patronizing you right back, Buzz.

[chiricahua]

I will agree on one thing regarding Patterson's speed.

He did not use it consistantly, he used it in bursts.

This is why many people thought/think Ali was faster than Patterson by viewing their fight.

But when those flashes* came they were amazing.




*Yes, I am patronizing you right back, Buzz.

Exactly!

[yancey]

Thanks for the analysis Dave. Of course, I'd favor Scott Frank over either one of them.

New to this place and like it already.

p.s. Pretty much agree that Tyson would stay down against prime George instead of getting up like Joe did.

[ringsider]

Patterson faster than Tyson.....absurdity abounds here.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Patterson faster than Tyson.....absurdity abounds here.

This would be the same eye-rolling sage who said Tyson & Bowe had better jabs than Liston?

[ringsider]

Patterson faster than Tyson.....absurdity abounds here.

This would be the same eye-rolling sage who said Tyson & Bowe had better jabs than Liston?

I've never said that.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Holmes could jab, but that was about it, he threw it too hard most of the time. Liston's jab was was clubber. Just because a fighter has a hard jab, doesn't make it a great jab. You jab too hard, you mess up your balance, & ability to follow with the right& a decent hook. Jabbing is about setting up your other punches. You can't be trying to knock a guy's block off with every jab.

Ali had a better jab
Joe Louis
Lennox Lewis
Riddick Bowe even!
Tyson(before he forgot what a jab was)
Ezzard Charles
Even George Foreman jabbed decent when he turned it down a bit. He used it to set everything up, ala Michael Moorer...

" - Ringsider

Taken from the thread, "Larry Holmes 1980 vs. Sonny Liston 1959". Maybe someone else called Ringsider?

My point is this --- in every other thread you are rolling eyes or insulting people, & as we can see above, you are hardly any kind of boxing expert. So quit the pretense that you are exasperated at the, "stupid" observations of others.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Excellent points but you have wrong information there.
Cus never said foreman would beat tyson that is a rumor made by tyson haters if you don't believe me come to Catskill and Rooney Nadia or Stewart will tell you face to face.
Actually Cus said Tyson would be invincible if he could keep his fighting system principles and he also said "He throws every punch with bad intentions. Even at this stage of his career, nobody can match his power. I guarantee you, when he hits them, they’ll go down”-Cus D’Amato, Sept 5, 1985 Sports Illustrated, speaking of his unbeaten 19 year-old heavyweight prospect, Mike Tyson. One month later Cus was dead and by August 1987 Mike Tyson became the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.
Cus said tyson was the hardest puncher he ever saw.
Tyson never refused to fight old foreman that is another rumor,Morrison defeated Old Foreman and Alex stewart took old george to 10 rounds and mike destroyed Alex in 1 round so don't tell me mike couldn't beat or fight old george.
You are right tyson after prison was mentally weak but with pros in his corner like Atlas Rooney or Cus he would be another man much more confidant.
Just look what Atlas made with Moorer against Holyfield.
The only great fighters foreman defeated before Ali were Frazier and Norton but the question is Tyson could defeat Norton and Frazier oh yes Norton was spanked by every puncher he faced like a maggot which means tyson would beat him too.
Well against Frazier even if frazier was tougher mentally than mike people have to agree mike also had the power to destroy easily frazier.
Young george had stamina problems just watch chuvalo fight where later george confessed how tired he was in that fight.
About the Lyle fight,foreman made a great fight simply Lyle was a powerfull puncher you see george was a slugger and he fought like a slugger and he was physically fine simply Lyle had the power to hurt him and push him back and Lyle was a great fighter too.
Simply i can't see what would be different in this fight if foreman faced Lyle earlier.
Slugger against slugger lion against lion Lyle was 8 years older than george with 35 years old george had 27 so i would say it was a fair fight.
A prime Tyson is better than anyone young Foreman faced except Ali.
I think prime foreman would crush Lennox no doubt.
George refused to fight a second time against Lyle and he also refused to fight against Shavers and Larry Holmes,Foreman was tough, but as you can see foreman wasn't so strong mentally like you claim." - Chiricahua

Well, I didn't disagree with everything here, but there are a couple of points I'll take up...

A) D'Amato said Foreman would beat all swarmers. Unless you disagree Tyson was a swarmer in style, this includes him. He's a short fighter coming out of a crouch, looking to get under the jab & fight, for the most part, at close range given his lack of height & reach. Sounds like a swarmer to me. Catskill is a bit far for me to travel, though.

B) So D'Amato said Tyson would be invincible? I'm sure you'll agree that while D'Amato is undoubtedly above me, this proves he is human & gets carried away as we all do. Tyson had barely fought pro when D'Amato died, so that statement was premature in the extreme. Proof here that his word, like anybody's, shouldn't be taken as gospel. Also, Tyson didn't become the linear (legitimate, undisputed in this case) champ until he beat Spinks, which didn't occur until 1988.

C) I never said the 90's Foreman would beat Tyson in real-time, though. What I said was Tyson feared him, & didn't want to fight him. This has been substantiated by a published document (it was on here as a talking point recently, I'll try to bring it up later for you if you'd like to see it) & as someone rightly pointed out, the publisher would've been sued if he were making up the conversations, which asserted from those close to the Tyson camp that he was afraid to face Foreman. I don't agree Tyson should have been afraid of the old Foreman, but that is something you'll have to take up with Mike.

D) I agree, the peak Tyson would've beaten Frazier & Norton both in my book. However, this is not the point. He didn't face them. Tyson did not have one genuinely great opponent before or during his championship reign, like Foreman did. It's also worth pointing out that Foreman arguably faced better competition in Tyson's era, than Tyson did at the time, & when coming through the ranks, Foreman faced & bested better competition than did Tyson.

This is not Tyson's fault. He could only fight what was available at the time. Agreed that up until possibly the 1974 Ali, Tyson is better than anyone Foreman faced at that time. However, Foreman is miles better than anyone Tyson met circa 1985-1990. This fight would be a huge step up in class for Tyson. Not so for Foreman, who beat great Heavyweights in Frazier & Norton, & what's more, did it easily on both occasions.

E) I would like to see some supporting documentation that Foreman ducked Holmes, Shavers & a rematch with Lyle. I'm not trying to call you out on this or asserting anything against you, I'm just saying I have never heard anything beyond rumours about Holmes (& have not even heard that he ducked a rematch with Lyle or a fight with a third-rater like Shavers).