BoxRec

My take:

Norton > Bowe
Lewis > Young

dempseyfire wrote:

markl wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:He had life-&-death with Kenny Norton, nearly shut Ron Lyle out (twice) beat Muhammad Ali (despite what the judges said) & handsomely embarressed George Foreman...& he's nearly shut out against Lennox Lewis?

Don't get me wrong, I don't envision Young winning. Ultimately, Lewis' size, range & skill-set IS going to be too much. But he's so damn slow next to Young, & doesn't have half the wit or ingenuity that a prime Young had. Overall Lewis is the superior fighter, & his size seals the deal, but while the decision may never be in serious doubt, this is no embarressment.

Keep in mind an ancient Evander Holyfield (2nd time around) very nearly outpointed a prime Lewis.

I am not as enamored with LL as many others are. But this is probably the worst matchup in Heavyweight history for Jimmy Young. The people that gave Lewis trouble did it with aggression.

The people that Young shined against came at him. Maybe not a shutout but if Jimmy young won more than 2 rounds I would call it an upset.

Lewis is slow next to almost anybody. But his cautious approach camouflages that. I can't seee Young getting real brave and even is he does. He has nothing to attack with.

Easy, easy win for Lennox. Like I said, Norton could hjave given Lewis trouble and Young would fair better against Bowe. But if LL fought Jimmy Young 100 times, not one of them would be close.

You know, I had the same opinion. But I recently re-watched Lewis-Mavoric. How Lennox was huffing and puffing by the 6th and letting a very sloppy (yet strong chinned and tough) challenger make it a competetive fight. Then I remember Lewis getting tired in Holyfield II, Mercer, Tucker etc. Lennox had heart and could pull out some flurries late but he still as a big guy got pretty tired late in fights (of course, his opponents had to make it to the late rounds first)

Jimmy Young, on the other hand, upped the activity as fights went on. He was so relaxed and comfortable in the ring, he could've excelled in the era of 20 rounders. Lewis wasn't (usually) the aggresive come forward attacker in the mold of Foreman and Lyle. Lewis would certaintly win the first 5 rounds or so by being more active as Young would be playing defense. But when Young starts putting in sharp right hand counters and working Lennox's body when Lewis holds Young in-close (something Heavyweights no longer do as they enjoy to rest in the clinch rather than work) in the middle-late rounds, how would Lewis respond?? Lennox's jab (over-rated BTW, Lyle actually had a stiffer harder jab) wouldn't just keep Young at bay all night. Young of course doesn't have the power to hurt Lewis but his body work could affect you.

This fight is more interesting the more I think about it.

Lewis was out of shape against an overmatched opponet there. I don't think Young could get inside to do any substantial body work. I see a really boring affair that Lewis wins every round in.

markl wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

markl wrote: I am not as enamored with LL as many others are. But this is probably the worst matchup in Heavyweight history for Jimmy Young. The people that gave Lewis trouble did it with aggression.

The people that Young shined against came at him. Maybe not a shutout but if Jimmy young won more than 2 rounds I would call it an upset.

Lewis is slow next to almost anybody. But his cautious approach camouflages that. I can't seee Young getting real brave and even is he does. He has nothing to attack with.

Easy, easy win for Lennox. Like I said, Norton could hjave given Lewis trouble and Young would fair better against Bowe. But if LL fought Jimmy Young 100 times, not one of them would be close.

You know, I had the same opinion. But I recently re-watched Lewis-Mavoric. How Lennox was huffing and puffing by the 6th and letting a very sloppy (yet strong chinned and tough) challenger make it a competetive fight. Then I remember Lewis getting tired in Holyfield II, Mercer, Tucker etc. Lennox had heart and could pull out some flurries late but he still as a big guy got pretty tired late in fights (of course, his opponents had to make it to the late rounds first)

Jimmy Young, on the other hand, upped the activity as fights went on. He was so relaxed and comfortable in the ring, he could've excelled in the era of 20 rounders. Lewis wasn't (usually) the aggresive come forward attacker in the mold of Foreman and Lyle. Lewis would certaintly win the first 5 rounds or so by being more active as Young would be playing defense. But when Young starts putting in sharp right hand counters and working Lennox's body when Lewis holds Young in-close (something Heavyweights no longer do as they enjoy to rest in the clinch rather than work) in the middle-late rounds, how would Lewis respond?? Lennox's jab (over-rated BTW, Lyle actually had a stiffer harder jab) wouldn't just keep Young at bay all night. Young of course doesn't have the power to hurt Lewis but his body work could affect you.

This fight is more interesting the more I think about it.

Lewis was out of shape against an overmatched opponet there. I don't think Young could get inside to do any substantial body work. I see a really boring affair that Lewis wins every round in.

Lewis was 243 lbs, his peak fighting weight. Lewis never showed strong stamina in any of his distance bouts unless you count throwing 20 jabs against a slow plodding Tua as good stamina. If a lethargic old Evander with diminished reflexes can do effective body work vs Lewis, a peak Young certainly can.

That version of Holyfield was still more dangerous than Young. Wisely,Lewis was afraid of getting into a firefight with Vander.

Not sure why you keep using that comparison. Because I can't envision Young employing the same almost reckless style that Holyfield did in that fight.

We will just have to agree to disagree. i can't see any of the things you do.

markl wrote:That version of Holyfield was still more dangerous than Young. Wisely,Lewis was afraid of getting into a firefight with Vander.

Not sure why you keep using that comparison. Because I can't envision Young employing the same almost reckless style that Holyfield did in that fight.

We will just have to agree to disagree. i can't see any of the things you do.

I recall when Young and Foreman were in top condition Young beat Foreman if just barely....many years later an old Foreman gives a young Evander all he can handle. Now to me that says that Jimmy Young who beat Foreman is likely going to be very competitive with Lennox IMHO.

I don't see any similarity in how Foreman and Lewis fight. So that one is right over my head.

markl wrote:I don't see any similarity in how Foreman and Lewis fight. So that one is right over my head.

You could run with this.....Young was pretty adaptable with his ability to deal with various styles. Does that bring it out of the stratosphere for you?

BoxBuzz wrote:

markl wrote:I don't see any similarity in how Foreman and Lewis fight. So that one is right over my head.

You could run with this.....Young was pretty adaptable with his ability to deal with various styles. Does that bring it out of the stratosphere for you?

I don't think there is anything Young can do to win this fight. Any other fights involving completely different styles you want to throw out?

Earnie Shavers knocked Young out. Just as meaningless as your Foreman mention.

markl wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

markl wrote:I don't see any similarity in how Foreman and Lewis fight. So that one is right over my head.

You could run with this.....Young was pretty adaptable with his ability to deal with various styles. Does that bring it out of the stratosphere for you?

I don't think there is anything Young can do to win this fight. Any other fights involving completely different styles you want to throw out?

Earnie Shavers knocked Young out. Just as meaningless as your Foreman mention.

Ah...well then I will look forward to more "meaningful" input from you on this and other matters. I simply think this would be competitive. I do marvel at how "championship status" gives an almost magical "leg up" to competitive theoreticals in our forum.

I'd throw out a Sam Langford, Primo Carnera fight for discussion but I'm afraid of what my eyes would be forced to read. After all Primo became champion and we all know what that means. The Valuev and Klitschko vs Langford discussions are about as close as I care to get to those debates.

People always go on about Lewis' chinas a weakness but it wasn't as bad as people say. On the other hand he did huff and puff and really did not like a fast pace. Lennox could pace hismelf so he didn't run our of steam but it would be interesting to see how he'd deal with Joe Frazier turning the heat up as the rounds went by.

Ezzard wrote:People always go on about Lewis' chinas a weakness but it wasn't as bad as people say. On the other hand he did huff and puff and really did not like a fast pace. Lennox could pace hismelf so he didn't run our of steam but it would be interesting to see how he'd deal with Joe Frazier turning the heat up as the rounds went by.

Lewis excelled in an era of poorly conditioned Heavyweights. 245 lb Tua, Rahman, 238 lb Mercer, Morrison (who's stamina always sucked regardless of his weight), 2002 Tyson, Bruno, Briggs etc. (of course, compared to this era i.e. last Saturday night's hug fest of "mouthpiece smiles" it looks like Olympic Decathaloners vs your Saturday night bowling club)

Seeing how he struggled vs some guys in 12 rounders, with 15 round championship fights vs guys in top condition (and I'm not even going into overall skill level), Lennox doesn't have nearly as much success as he did.

Reviewing some of Larry Holmes's fights on Youtube, one can see, despite the technical averageness of fighters like Weaver, Snipes, and Berbick, those guys got into REAL condition, made you fight for 3 minutes of each round, and if Lewis doesn't score knockouts within 5 rounds against those guys he's in trouble. Talk about the likes of Frazier, Quarry, Ali, Holmes etc. and you are in another league altogether.

Lewis was great for his era, but I see him having less success in other eras. People under-rate the importance of stamina and conditioning and boxing all the time. You can have the biggest right hand in the world, but your chances of landing that knockout punch vs a durable opponent are much less than your chance having to deal with that man in your face in the late rounds.

dempseyfire wrote:

Ezzard wrote:People always go on about Lewis' chinas a weakness but it wasn't as bad as people say. On the other hand he did huff and puff and really did not like a fast pace. Lennox could pace hismelf so he didn't run our of steam but it would be interesting to see how he'd deal with Joe Frazier turning the heat up as the rounds went by.

Lewis excelled in an era of poorly conditioned Heavyweights. 245 lb Tua, Rahman, 238 lb Mercer, Morrison (who's stamina always sucked regardless of his weight), 2002 Tyson, Bruno, Briggs etc. (of course, compared to this era i.e. last Saturday night's hug fest of "mouthpiece smiles" it looks like Olympic Decathaloners vs your Saturday night bowling club)

Seeing how he struggled vs some guys in 12 rounders, with 15 round championship fights vs guys in top condition (and I'm not even going into overall skill level), Lennox doesn't have nearly as much success as he did.

Reviewing some of Larry Holmes's fights on Youtube, one can see, despite the technical averageness of fighters like Weaver, Snipes, and Berbick, those guys got into REAL condition, made you fight for 3 minutes of each round, and if Lewis doesn't score knockouts within 5 rounds against those guys he's in trouble. Talk about the likes of Frazier, Quarry, Ali, Holmes etc. and you are in another league altogether.

Lewis was great for his era, but I see him having less success in other eras. People under-rate the importance of stamina and conditioning and boxing all the time. You can have the biggest right hand in the world, but your chances of landing that knockout punch vs a durable opponent are much less than your chance having to deal with that man in your face in the late rounds.

I agree. I think a guy with a sturdy chin and good workrate would be a nightmare opponent for Lewis. Holyfield, in his prime, would have taken him IMO.

Too much today is focused on power and size and maybe it was the shift to 12 rounds that made this happen.

Today many people seem to think that size automatically goes hand in hand with power. People keep saying that Samuel Peter is supposed to be this brutal puncher despite all the proof to the contrary.

Anyway, Bowe-Norton would be an interesting fight. I would pick Bowe 2 out of 3. Lewis would have a lot trouble with Young but should get the win. However, if it's a 15 round fight, it's not out of the the question for Young to pull out a decision.

BoxBuzz wrote:

markl wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote: You could run with this.....Young was pretty adaptable with his ability to deal with various styles. Does that bring it out of the stratosphere for you?

I don't think there is anything Young can do to win this fight. Any other fights involving completely different styles you want to throw out?

Earnie Shavers knocked Young out. Just as meaningless as your Foreman mention.

Ah...well then I will look forward to more "meaningful" input from you on this and other matters. I simply think this would be competitive. I do marvel at how "championship status" gives an almost magical "leg up" to competitive theoreticals in our forum.

I'd throw out a Sam Langford, Primo Carnera fight for discussion but I'm afraid of what my eyes would be forced to read. After all Primo became champion and we all know what that means. The Valuev and Klitschko vs Langford discussions are about as close as I care to get to those debates.

I never said a word about them being champions. There are a lot of knowledgable people around here. But you act like you invented the sport. I have seen as many if not more fights than you have.

Saying Lennox Lewis would dominate Jimmy young is not like saying Hamsho drubs Monzon. it is the probable outcome.

Don't worry about anymore of my "meaningful" input. fornicate this place.

markl wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

markl wrote: I don't think there is anything Young can do to win this fight. Any other fights involving completely different styles you want to throw out?

Earnie Shavers knocked Young out. Just as meaningless as your Foreman mention.

Ah...well then I will look forward to more "meaningful" input from you on this and other matters. I simply think this would be competitive. I do marvel at how "championship status" gives an almost magical "leg up" to competitive theoreticals in our forum.

I'd throw out a Sam Langford, Primo Carnera fight for discussion but I'm afraid of what my eyes would be forced to read. After all Primo became champion and we all know what that means. The Valuev and Klitschko vs Langford discussions are about as close as I care to get to those debates.

I never said a word about them being champions. There are a lot of knowledgable people around here. But you act like you invented the sport. I have seen as many if not more fights than you have.

Saying Lennox Lewis would dominate Jimmy young is not like saying Hamsho drubs Monzon. it is the probable outcome.

Don't worry about anymore of my "meaningful" input. eff this place.

Before any rumors start, I did not invent the sport....nor did I mean to disrespect this contributor. Just having a bit of a give and take on a subject that is somewhat less than concrete in it's nature. Anything I say is simply one man's humble opinion....no more no less.

Effing this place will give you little if any satisfaction. For that purpose I would suggest a who and not a what, I prefer feminine myself, warmer, more shapely, and sweetly fragranced is always a plus.

and good luck to you.