BoxRec

silkov wrote:This is my view of Britains all time heavyweight top ten!....

1. Joe Bugner
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Frank Bruno
5. Tommy Farr
6. Len Harvey
7. Henry Cooper
8. Jack Peterson
9. Bruce Woodcock
10. Horace Notice

Silkov, how can you put Bugner over Lewis.........cmon get real.

silkov wrote:This is my view of Britains all time heavyweight top ten!....

1. Joe Bugner
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Frank Bruno
5. Tommy Farr
6. Len Harvey
7. Henry Cooper
8. Jack Peterson
9. Bruce Woodcock
10. Horace Notice

Controversial; having Bugner at number 1, but it's about opinions & they are all to be valued.

I'd personally go with the flow have Lennox Lewis at number 1, he's far & away Britain's best ever HW.

I'd also have Gary Mason above Frank Bruno, curiously enough, although it would be lower down than you have Frank in your list.

Syntax Error wrote:

silkov wrote:This is my view of Britains all time heavyweight top ten!....

1. Joe Bugner
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Frank Bruno
5. Tommy Farr
6. Len Harvey
7. Henry Cooper
8. Jack Peterson
9. Bruce Woodcock
10. Horace Notice

Controversial; having Bugner at number 1, but it's about opinions & they are all to be valued.

I'd personally go with the flow have Lennox Lewis at number 1, he's far & away Britain's best ever HW.

I'd also have Gary Mason above Frank Bruno, curiously enough, altough it would be lower down than you have Frank in your list.

I weighed Bugner and Lewis up as toi how they would have matched up and there respective careers, Lewis may have acheived more but Bugner fought the better opposition and I think had they fought eachother I could see Bugner outboxing Lewis.......
Mason never really fought anyone of note, while Bruno fought some of the top guys of his era....

Silky, Lewis beat Holyfield, Tyson and Ruddock, and Bowe in the Olympic final - Tyson albeit way past his best. Yes, Bugner fought better opposition but who did he beat compared to these guys? Bugner was a great survivor, but his win ledger bears no comparison to Lewis'.
In a heat to head match up Lewis would win, probably on points although I wouldnt rule out a stoppage

dr_devious wrote:Silky, Lewis beat Holyfield, Tyson and Ruddock, and Bowe in the Olympic final - Tyson albeit way past his best. Yes, Bugner fought better opposition but who did he beat compared to these guys? Bugner was a great survivor, but his win ledger bears no comparison to Lewis'.
In a heat to head match up Lewis would win, probably on points although I wouldnt rule out a stoppage

What you think Lewis would stop Bugner when neither Ali, Frazier or Lyle could stop him??. You're also forgetting how close Bruno came to beating Lewis and the trouble Lewis always had with tall fighters with good jabs. Bugner did far more than just survive against Ali and Frazier, .....he did far better against them than say Jerry Quarry, who is often named as one of the best guys of his era. Can you see Lewis having done better against Ali or Frazier??.....

I can see the scorecard between Ali and Lewis being closer, whilst the Frazier fight goes either Frazier early-mid rounds KO or Lewis on points.
Lewis still beat much better guys than Bugner did, was the undisputed champions, successfully defended title belts many times, and beat every guy he ever faced. Theres no way that Bugner should be rated above him

>>>Bob Fitzsimmons isn't going to beat Lennox Lewis. If they fought 100 times, Fitzsimmons would be dead after the fourth fight.<<<

If Fitz could do as well as he did with Jeffries, who is an all-time great, then Lewis, who is not, and his safety-first style certainly is not going to hurt Fitzsimmons any! Not only would Fitzsimmons last, but he would very likely win as much asd he lost against Lewis! Dead by his fourth fight...shit!!!

As to Bugner...he was beat by Marvis Frazier...he was stopped by Shavers, not to mention that he was beaten by Jack Bodell and Larry Middleton among others. Lewis, for all of his flaws, would most likely never lose to those types of fighters! Bugner has a resume that has wins over second and third rate heavyweights, but whenever he stepped up he lost. Doing good and losing, well only Vitali Klitschko seems to get credit for it, but no matter how much someone may try...they will never get gold from plastic!

Decagon wrote:You're assuming that Jeffries - a man who Fitzsimmons probably could never beat - is better than Lewis. Given the dearth of footage of Jeffries, your assumption is moot. Fitzsimmons, carrying his hands low against the straight, accurate punches of Lennox Lewis? He'd have no chance of winning.

Would have to agree. He'd do well to get past the first round.

Decagon wrote:You're assuming that Jeffries - a man who Fitzsimmons probably could never beat - is better than Lewis. Given the dearth of footage of Jeffries, your assumption is moot. Fitzsimmons, carrying his hands low against the straight, accurate punches of Lennox Lewis? He'd have no chance of winning.

80% of Lewis's opponents carried their hands at their waist.

silkov wrote:

pundit wrote:

silkov wrote:This is my view of Britains all time heavyweight top ten!....

1. Joe Bugner
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Frank Bruno
5. Tommy Farr
6. Len Harvey
7. Henry Cooper
8. Jack Peterson
9. Bruce Woodcock
10. Horace Notice

Sorry mate but Bugner ahead of LL is silly.

The top 5 I'd have

1 Lewis
2 Bruno
3 Bugner
4 Cooper
5 Farr

Fitz I'd have down as a Kiwi.

Silly???..... do you see Bruno going the distance with Ali, Frazier and Lyle???...... do you see Lewis going the distance with them??... the punches Bugner took from Frazier would have koed Lennox imo.... its all opinions but I dont think rating Bugner ahead of Lewis is any sillier than rating Bruno ahead of Bugner!!!.....

You can't compare fighters like that. Could you see Bugner beating Holyfield or Tyson?

Bugner was basically a safety first fighter with a good chin, thats why he normally went the distance with good fighters. You can't compare his record with Lewis. (remember Bugner was ko'ed in his pro debut before any comparisons with their chins is made).

Where's the option for Hughroy Currie, then?

Bugner is an interesting case, isn't he?

First, I want to mention something that many people may disagree with.
I think that Bugner (at his best) would have beaten the version of Holyfield and Tyson that Lewis beat. It wouldn't have taken a great fighter to have beaten them at that stage in their career.

Having said that, I still maintain that it's pretty clear that Lewis had a better career than Bugner. However, you can make a decent arguement that Bugner could be as high as the #2 British Heavyweight.

With Bugner, you have the rare case where people can some decent victores he had can actually be used as an arguement against him.

He beat Page,Smith, Bey and Tillis after he lost to Marvis Frazier. This suggests that he wasn't washed up when he lost to Frazier. Which means that it is a fairly embarrasing loss for Bugner to have lost to Marvis Frazier if he wasn't washed up.

However, if you have actually seen the Bugner-Marvis Frazier fight, you will see that Bugner was no where near the top of his game. If he would have retired after losing to Frazier, the loss to Frazier would have been written off as "past his Prime" loss. However, Bugner went on to beat better fighters.

So why was he able to beat fighters better than Frazier, after he looked so bad against Frazier? That is the interesting question.

Ambling Alp wrote:Bugner is an interesting case, isn't he?

First, I want to mention something that many people may disagree with.
I think that Bugner (at his best) would have beaten the version of Holyfield and Tyson that Lewis beat. It wouldn't have taken a great fighter to have beaten them at that stage in their career.

Having said that, I still maintain that it's pretty clear that Lewis had a better career than Bugner. However, you can make a decent arguement that Bugner could be as high as the #2 British Heavyweight.

With Bugner, you have the rare case where people can some decent victores he had can actually be used as an arguement against him.

He beat Page,Smith, Bey and Tillis after he lost to Marvis Frazier. This suggests that he wasn't washed up when he lost to Frazier. Which means that it is a fairly embarrasing loss for Bugner to have lost to Marvis Frazier if he wasn't washed up.

However, if you have actually seen the Bugner-Marvis Frazier fight, you will see that Bugner was no where near the top of his game. If he would have retired after losing to Frazier, the loss to Frazier would have been written off as "past his Prime" loss. However, Bugner went on to beat better fighters.

So why was he able to beat fighters better than Frazier, after he looked so bad against Frazier? That is the interesting question.

I don’t think that I would consider his loss to Frazier that embarrassing. Marvis was blown out by 2 ATG’s, but also beat a few other very good HWs in Smith and Tillis, as well as a good win over the credible James Broad. In fact, I think Marvis is probably a bit under-rated these days because most only remember him getting pummeled by Holmes and Tyson.

It’s been quite a while since I’ve seen Bugner-Frazier, but Bugner wasn’t known as a real big hitter and Frazier was an aggressive, well conditioned fighter that could fight at a good pace. That’s the type of fighter who could give Bugner problems. No one would ever say that Smith, Bey, Page and Tillis were well conditioned fighters who could fight at a good pace, which is why Bugner was able to beat them.

Having said that, I have to admit to being a Bugner fan, and also think that he is a bit under-rated by most current fans and would probably have given Lewis a very good fight. In fact, if he was in his prime today I would make him a favorite over all of the current top 10 HWs, although he was rather inconsistent.

...it is impossible to under rate marvis frazier....

Jaclem wrote:...it is impossible to under rate marvis frazier....

See what I mean...

On paper a Lewis-Bugner fight sounds interesting, but I could see it being a very dull match, with lots of long-range sparring, clinches and posing. Lewis was the harder puncher and Bugner was probably better defensively. It could be close, with Lewis a probable winner by decision. Even if it were a draw, British fans would boo the decision, as I don't believe either fighter was very popular.

Cap


Cap's Journal

Controversial wrote:
silkov wrote:
Decagon wrote:
silkov wrote:
Yep, and you've probably never even seen Bugner fight either!....
Like pretty much everyone in this forum, I'm addicted to Youtube. It's the Boxrec of the last half of this decade. Of course I've seen Bugner fight, but you have inspired me to watch more, and I thank you for that. Ranking him based on his record and a couple of fights with Ali might not have been the best, but after watching all the other footage I could find, I still can see NO REASON to rank him above Lewis, even though I've gained a greater appreciation for Bugner.

I will concede that our difference in opinion comes from the way we rank fighters. To you, the outcome or even the deserved outcome of a fight bears little or no weight in how you rank fighters, and I simply cannot agree with that. Here is the conclusion I've made:
Bugner lost to most of the top heavyweights he fought.

Lewis beat every fighter he fought.
I simply can't understand how you can ignore this.


Judging by your comments you have absolutely no idea how I rate fighters and I'm afraid I havent really the time or inclination to enlighten you... as for Lewis winning every fight he was in I think you're leaving out the two times he was koed by mediocre fighters!....


You do realise this post was about the middleweight division not the heavyweights?

Anyhow Lewis was a world champion with 15 title defences (only Louis and Holmes above him). He avenged both defeats by stoppage and beat every fighter there was to beat (apart from Bowe who wanted no part of him).

Bugner, was a good fighter but just doesn't compare to Lewis's achievements. You say Lewis was ko'ed by medioce fighters, what about Bugner being ko'ed in his pro debut by a fighter with a 1-3 record who went on to lose every other fight he ever had?

If I asked you to name the top 10 or 20 heavyweights of all time you can't honestly say you would have Bugner ahead of Lewis, that just doesn't make sense !!


Henry Armstrong was koed in his debut also, I suppose he sucked as well!!. If you cant see the difference between someone being koed when theyre just a kid of 18 and someone being koed twice when theyre supposedly at their peak, then I dont think theres much hope for you I'm afraid!!.....

I didn't say Bugner sucked because he was ko'ed? Bugner was a good fighter but I can't see how you can rate him above Lewis. Yes Lewis was stopped twice, but avenged both defeats by stoppage. The defeats were in world title fights to large, big punching, fit and up for it fighters. You don't always have to be a world class fighter to ko someone, sometimes a big punch is all you need. A big punch hurts no matter who throws it, a world class fighter or a jouneyman.

You can certainly make excuses for Lewis's condition in the Rahmen fight as it was well publicised he didn't train properly for it.

So going back to my previous statement if I asked you to name your top 20 heavyweight of all time, you would honestly have Bugner ahead of Lewis?

No Don Cockell?

..well, cockell DID get up after marciano hit him while he was down, and continued to fight after marciano hit him low and after the bell....

Cockell was actually a very good fighter but should never have been more than a lightheavy but had to move up to heavy due to a gland problem that meant his body converted all water he took in into sugar, or something like that.... but it meant that he basically had no control over his weight.... its doubtfull that he'd be allowed to fight with such an illness today. As for Marciano his treatment of Cockell was nothing short of disguting, just about the only thing he didnt do to Don was hit him on the head with the stool.... Cockell probably deserves to be in at 9 or 10 in my list, he picked up some useful wins as a heavy despite his illness, he was certainly not a joke fighter like some seem to think....

Silkov I'll ask you again.

If you were to name your top 20 heavyweights of all time are you saying you would rate Bugner ahead of Lewis?

Only Bob Fitzsimmons seems to have been as dominant against his contemporaries as Lennox Lewis.

In terms of p4p its Bob Fitzsimmons all the way, for being no more bigger than a Super Middleweight, he had the power of a Super-Heavyweight. He was known for knocking out much larger men than himself, if I recall one such opponent was 6'7" and over 300 pounds, yet Fitz stopped him in two rounds.

As for his lineage, I can't remember if Fitzsimmons was originally a Welshman who then went to New Zealand, or vice versa. That situation reminds me of Joe Bugner, as he wasn't English either, but a Hungarian who later moved to Australia.

As far as Heavyweight British Champions are concerned, Henry Cooper was the best of all time, but then again are we talking just Marquis of Queensbury or in general? If it's the latter, then Jem Mace was the greatest. Then I would throw in the Tommy Farr's, and the Ben Foord's, etc. But yes, Lewis is the #1 Heavyweight world champion to ever come out of Britain.

Bob Fitz was Cornish, and emigrated to New Zealand as a child.