BoxRec

I can understand Joe's anger to a degree, as Ali's comments were hurtful & disrespectful, but him continually dwelling on it does not make any sense.

It was over 35 years ago when Ali first said those things & even Ali himself has said that he likes Joe after all.

Frazier did the one thing that not many other fighters ever did; he rammed Ali's taunts rammed back down his gob & knocked him on his back! That is the best way to shut someone up.

There aren't many that can say that.

dempseyfire wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:I have a few opinions on this.

The first one is that I don't have a problem with anything Ali said about Frazier in the buildup to the second and third fights, there was no political/racial slurs in that fight.

There's nothing racial about being called a big dumb ugly gorilla?? That was before Manilla.

Yes, if you had read the post you would have seen that I mentioned Ali's use of the term "gorilla." I'm also aware that it took place before Manila... afterall, it rhymes with Manila, which is why Ali used it. But, as to your assertion of racism; that's sort of like the Cosell controversy about him calling the football player a "monkey." Just because others use the term in a racial way doesn't mean Cosell meant it in that way, and the same thing here, I do not know that Ali meant "gorilla" to be a racial slur. Perhaps Ali was "racist" against another black man in Frazier, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility, if it wasn't for his history of calling his other opponents "bear" and "rabbit". That doesn't give you pause for thought about the notion that "gorilla" was meant to be a racial slur? Or are you more interested in rushing to the nastiest possible conclusion?

You can certainly find examples of Ali being a racist, but I think some might be jumping to conclusions with this "gorilla" thing. But, I could be wrong.

Another thing that is missed in all of this is that Ali was always very complimentary of Frazier... when the fight was over. Before the fight it was a different story, and Ali had a different mindset. If you've ever seen a Mayweather fight, you'll see the night and day difference in attitude he has towards his opponents before and after a fight. This is sports, afterall, and professional athletes do take the concept of "opponent" seriously. Frazier certainly did, he asked God to help him kill Ali.

That doesn't mean Ali was right to call Frazier some of the things he did, primarily before the first fight, but the idea that Ali was all together wrong in seeking a psychological advantage is stupid.

But, again, I don't really care about the perception about Ali here. I do think the big picture is being missed, but I can understand that criticism. What does bother me is the idea that Frazier was a victim. I'm sorry, he was not. And as for this question of Frazier looking for attention; yes, I think that he was/is sincere that he was hurt by Ali, but that's sort of irrelevant to the question about him looking for attention. It can be both; he can be both hurt and looking for attention... hardly something unusual. Again, this happened during the Nixon and Ford administrations, you'd imagine his pain wouldn't still be so great that he still needs to run to ESPN every six months to relive the great 'atrocity.'

I still don't see the threads about Duran spitting on Leonard's sister, or Monzon killing his wife, or Jack Johnson hospitalizing his girlfriends. I know what Ali said was wrong, but I'd have to rank his comments in fourth place behind some of those.

One thing about Ali's taunts was that he usually kept them for black fighters. Ali knew that pulling the 'what's my name' trick on white boxers would not be recieved too well.

I like Frazier. I like his honesty in the ring. He didn't have Ali's quicksilver tongue or talent for self-promotion and maybe it's these facotrs, more than anything, which bothers him still.

Ezzard wrote:One thing about Ali's taunts was that he usually kept them for black fighters. Ali knew that pulling the 'what's my name' trick on white boxers would not be recieved too well.

I like Frazier. I like his honesty in the ring. He didn't have Ali's quicksilver tongue or talent for self-promotion and maybe it's these facotrs, more than anything, which bothers him still.

The thing that bothers Frazier the most is that Ali was the better fighter and is regarded as such, its as simple as that imo... would we still be hearing about the name calling had Frazier beaten Ali 2 out of 3 three times?.... no...

I Feel Fine wrote:I still don't see the threads about Duran spitting on Leonard's sister, or Monzon killing his wife, or Jack Johnson hospitalizing his girlfriends. I know what Ali said was wrong, but I'd have to rank his comments in fourth place behind some of those.

True. There are plenty of fighters who have said worse. Ali stands out the most though because Ali is perceived as this great symbol of human and civil rights. Underneath it all though Ali was not below damaging an African-American man for the sake of his own name. Yet people still refuse to look at it like that. When Ali is dead and gone, he will be mentioned alongside Gandhi and Mother Theresa when the truth puts him far from it. And that may be what pisses Joe Frazier off the most. Ali put the tag of "Uncle Tom" on Joe Frazier's legacy for all time. Who wouldn't be pissed?

silkov wrote:

Ezzard wrote:One thing about Ali's taunts was that he usually kept them for black fighters. Ali knew that pulling the 'what's my name' trick on white boxers would not be recieved too well.

I like Frazier. I like his honesty in the ring. He didn't have Ali's quicksilver tongue or talent for self-promotion and maybe it's these facotrs, more than anything, which bothers him still.

The thing that bothers Frazier the most is that Ali was the better fighter and is regarded as such, its as simple as that imo... would we still be hearing about the name calling had Frazier beaten Ali 2 out of 3 three times?.... no...

So why doesn't he have the same bile in his belly for Foreman who beat Frazier far more convincingly than Ali?

Frazier's style would always cause Ali problems, so much so that peak for peak I think Joe has the edge, but it's always a close thing.

Terry D wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

silkov wrote: The thing that bothers Frazier the most is that Ali was the better fighter and is regarded as such, its as simple as that imo... would we still be hearing about the name calling had Frazier beaten Ali 2 out of 3 three times?.... no...

So why doesn't he have the same bile in his belly for Foreman who beat Frazier far more convincingly than Ali?

Frazier's style would always cause Ali problems, so much so that peak for peak I think Joe has the edge, but it's always a close thing.

Because Big George would still whip his arse.

Ezzard wrote:

silkov wrote:

Ezzard wrote:One thing about Ali's taunts was that he usually kept them for black fighters. Ali knew that pulling the 'what's my name' trick on white boxers would not be recieved too well.

I like Frazier. I like his honesty in the ring. He didn't have Ali's quicksilver tongue or talent for self-promotion and maybe it's these facotrs, more than anything, which bothers him still.

The thing that bothers Frazier the most is that Ali was the better fighter and is regarded as such, its as simple as that imo... would we still be hearing about the name calling had Frazier beaten Ali 2 out of 3 three times?.... no...

So why doesn't he have the same bile in his belly for Foreman who beat Frazier far more convincingly than Ali?

Frazier's style would always cause Ali problems, so much so that peak for peak I think Joe has the edge, but it's always a close thing.

Good point, it doesn't have to do with Ali beating Frazier. It has to do with Frazier and how his perception in the black community was tainted permanently by the picture Ali painted of him. Yes, the gorilla comment was very racial. Ali made Frazier into the image of the dumb black Uncle Tom, who said 'yessir' to the white man, living off his strength but no brains. Frazier didn't understand why the son of a sharecropper who rose from the South into the HW championship wouldn't be elevated in the black community above a middle-class, half-white loudmouth from Louisville.

Again, I do think Frazier's bitterness after all these years is a little petty and he needs to just suck it up. But people should understand where it comes from. Everyone I've known who knows Frazier thinks of him as one of the nicest people they've ever met so I don't believe this is some pathetic grab at "attention" (the comments he made were always to low-level boxing writers and in informal conversation) or him just being spiteful b/c Ali is more famous.

dempseyfire wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

silkov wrote: The thing that bothers Frazier the most is that Ali was the better fighter and is regarded as such, its as simple as that imo... would we still be hearing about the name calling had Frazier beaten Ali 2 out of 3 three times?.... no...

So why doesn't he have the same bile in his belly for Foreman who beat Frazier far more convincingly than Ali?

Frazier's style would always cause Ali problems, so much so that peak for peak I think Joe has the edge, but it's always a close thing.

Good point, it doesn't have to do with Ali beating Frazier. It has to do with Frazier and how his perception in the black community was tainted permanently by the picture Ali painted of him. Yes, the gorilla comment was very racial. Ali made Frazier into the image of the dumb black Uncle Tom, who said 'yessir' to the white man, living off his strength but no brains. Frazier didn't understand why the son of a sharecropper who rose from the South into the HW championship wouldn't be elevated in the black community above a middle-class, half-white loudmouth from Louisville.

Again, I do think Frazier's bitterness after all these years is a little petty and he needs to just suck it up. But people should understand where it comes from. Everyone I've known who knows Frazier thinks of him as one of the nicest people they've ever met so I don't believe this is some pathetic grab at "attention" (the comments he made were always to low-level boxing writers and in informal conversation) or him just being spiteful b/c Ali is more famous.

I think you've got a good handle on the bitterness.

I remember a quote from Frazier that said something like despite Joe having the darker skin Ali was trying to make him out to be white...or something to that effect... Whether it was true or not Frazier seemed to think it was.

Ezzard wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Ezzard wrote: So why doesn't he have the same bile in his belly for Foreman who beat Frazier far more convincingly than Ali?

Frazier's style would always cause Ali problems, so much so that peak for peak I think Joe has the edge, but it's always a close thing.

Good point, it doesn't have to do with Ali beating Frazier. It has to do with Frazier and how his perception in the black community was tainted permanently by the picture Ali painted of him. Yes, the gorilla comment was very racial. Ali made Frazier into the image of the dumb black Uncle Tom, who said 'yessir' to the white man, living off his strength but no brains. Frazier didn't understand why the son of a sharecropper who rose from the South into the HW championship wouldn't be elevated in the black community above a middle-class, half-white loudmouth from Louisville.

Again, I do think Frazier's bitterness after all these years is a little petty and he needs to just suck it up. But people should understand where it comes from. Everyone I've known who knows Frazier thinks of him as one of the nicest people they've ever met so I don't believe this is some pathetic grab at "attention" (the comments he made were always to low-level boxing writers and in informal conversation) or him just being spiteful b/c Ali is more famous.

I think you've got a good handle on the bitterness.

I remember a quote from Frazier that said something like despite Joe having the darker skin Ali was trying to make him out to be white...or something to that effect... Whether it was true or not Frazier seemed to think it was.

I think those were Ali's intentions. Ali was waging his own little war, along with the rest of the Black Muslims, on the white man. Ali couldn't directly come out and viciously attack the white man. I mean, who was cutting Ali's checks? It wasn't Don King at that time. What better way to attack the white man than through a man of his own race? Joe Frazier was Ali's pawn in that game through no fault of his own.

And Ali was no more than a pawn in the game of the black muslims. He was manipulated and used.

Ezzard wrote:And Ali was no more than a pawn in the game of the black muslims. He was manipulated and used.

Ezzard wrote:

silkov wrote:

Ezzard wrote:One thing about Ali's taunts was that he usually kept them for black fighters. Ali knew that pulling the 'what's my name' trick on white boxers would not be recieved too well.

I like Frazier. I like his honesty in the ring. He didn't have Ali's quicksilver tongue or talent for self-promotion and maybe it's these facotrs, more than anything, which bothers him still.

The thing that bothers Frazier the most is that Ali was the better fighter and is regarded as such, its as simple as that imo... would we still be hearing about the name calling had Frazier beaten Ali 2 out of 3 three times?.... no...

So why doesn't he have the same bile in his belly for Foreman who beat Frazier far more convincingly than Ali?

Frazier's style would always cause Ali problems, so much so that peak for peak I think Joe has the edge, but it's always a close thing.

Frazier doesnt like the fact that Ali is more popular than him....
As to Frazier having the edge over Ali head to head at their peaks I dont agree with that at all, Ali came close to beating a paek Frazier when he had had just 2 fights in 4 years, a peak Ali would have had a much easier time with Frazier.... Frazier only ever fought a 60 to 70% Ali...

George Foreman is more popular than Joe Frazier. I don't get it. Why doesn't Joe hate George?

Terry D wrote:

Ezzard wrote:And Ali was no more than a pawn in the game of the black muslims. He was manipulated and used.

Aye, he should have gone with Malcolm X and became a real Muslim.

How did anyone in their right mind fall for Elijah's lies? Go to a library and it would take an afternoon to see through the guy and his wastrel son.

Yes, or just talk to one of the many secretaries Elijah went through during that period.

silkov wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

silkov wrote: The thing that bothers Frazier the most is that Ali was the better fighter and is regarded as such, its as simple as that imo... would we still be hearing about the name calling had Frazier beaten Ali 2 out of 3 three times?.... no...

So why doesn't he have the same bile in his belly for Foreman who beat Frazier far more convincingly than Ali?

Frazier's style would always cause Ali problems, so much so that peak for peak I think Joe has the edge, but it's always a close thing.

Frazier doesnt like the fact that Ali is more popular than him....
As to Frazier having the edge over Ali head to head at their peaks I dont agree with that at all, Ali came close to beating a paek Frazier when he had had just 2 fights in 4 years, a peak Ali would have had a much easier time with Frazier.... Frazier only ever fought a 60 to 70% Ali...

Well, it's one that rumbles on... I think 60-70% is nto really representative. Ali would never have had an easy time with Frazier.

Ezzard wrote:

silkov wrote:

Ezzard wrote: So why doesn't he have the same bile in his belly for Foreman who beat Frazier far more convincingly than Ali?

Frazier's style would always cause Ali problems, so much so that peak for peak I think Joe has the edge, but it's always a close thing.

Frazier doesnt like the fact that Ali is more popular than him....
As to Frazier having the edge over Ali head to head at their peaks I dont agree with that at all, Ali came close to beating a paek Frazier when he had had just 2 fights in 4 years, a peak Ali would have had a much easier time with Frazier.... Frazier only ever fought a 60 to 70% Ali...

Well, it's one that rumbles on... I think 60-70% is nto really representative. Ali would never have had an easy time with Frazier.

It wouldnt have been easy but it would have been easier than the fights that he did have with Frazier. You only need to watch Ali of the 60s and the Ali of the 70s to see the difference in him. In their first fight Ali hadnt adapted to the loss of much of his speed and stamina, and it told in the fight as he got caught on the ropes and didnt defend himself well, in their 3rd fight Ali trained poorly and underestimated how much Frazier had left... the best Ali that Frazier faced was in their second fight and in that one Ali had a pretty 'easy' time compared to the other fights they had.
But Frazier never fought the Ali who could hit and move for 15 rounds like he did against Chuvalo and Terrell.... also we dont know how good Ali would have got without his enforced layoff.... probably a mixture of the '67 and 70s Ali... still with the speed but more mature and stronger.... we probably only saw 80% of what he could have been....

There's one thing though. Ali's toughness, IMO, was considerably less in the 60's than it was during the 70's (much as Foreman appeared to get tougher & more determined with age).

How would that Ali handle being worn down & beaten upon without relent? Of course his speed & reflexes were such that Frazier would have a tougher time doing so, but you have to think he finds rhythm at some point. He just has to. He was that kind of fighter.

I narrowly favour Ali on points. But Frazier by late stoppage? Not hard to envision, IMO.

Ali is popular as he is a T-shirt and poster personality these days, kinda like Bruce Lee. Alot of younger people buy memorabilia, and so on because its actually available and maybe a few DVD doco's watch half of them and then become 'experts' on HW boxing and the man himself.

"He could beat anyone..." They say.

"Why " You ask..

"Because ... he is the best" And of course this opinion is based on what they are told...or hear.

Its funny how often people tell me Ali is the greatest, without having never watched a full fight of his nor having seen any other fighter, yet they have such a firm and absolute opinion.

I love Ali, and think he was ONE of the greatest, but just because you get told something over and over again doesn't make it so...I want to watch alot more fights of other legends before I jump on the band waggon. I think Frazier is hurt and rightly so because to a vast majority he is rememberd as one of Ali's opponents and the only fights of his you can get is him vs Ali, and oh yeah...he was KO'd by Foreman in 'When we were kings'.

Personally I can watch most of Frzaier fights over and over, yet I find it hard to sit down and watch Ali's fights more than once....maybe thats me.

It doesn't matter what populace worship has done to accend Ali to whatever levels he shall become revered at, after his illness and some day his death. To those of us who love a hard luck story, a rags to riches tale and any one who loves prize fighting...Frazier is a great champion. Who should be rembered for his unlikely gold medal in 1964, his war with Bonavena, his decimation of Ellis, his trench fight with Quarry, his revenge over Mathis, his dropping of Foster and his battle with Briton Bugner. Not just for his left hook that put Ali on his butt, or his losses to Foreman.

Sorry I am ranting, but I in some way share Frazier's anger over Ali's pop culture this is not so much Ali's fault but those who tend to claim to be boxing fan's yet who go no further than those generic posters, and doco's you find at cheap as cheaps.

Kym

Robinson wrote:Ali is popular as he is a T-shirt and poster personality these days, kinda like Bruce Lee. Alot of younger people buy memorabilia, and so on because its actually available and maybe a few DVD doco's watch half of them and then become 'experts' on HW boxing and the man himself.

"He could beat anyone..." They say.

"Why " You ask..

"Because ... he is the best" And of course this opinion is based on what they are told...or hear.

Its funny how often people tell me Ali is the greatest, without having never watched a full fight of his nor having seen any other fighter, yet they have such a firm and absolute opinion.

I love Ali, and think he was ONE of the greatest, but just because you get told something over and over again doesn't make it so...I want to watch alot more fights of other legends before I jump on the band waggon. I think Frazier is hurt and rightly so because to a vast majority he is rememberd as one of Ali's opponents and the only fights of his you can get is him vs Ali, and oh yeah...he was KO'd by Foreman in 'When we were kings'.

Personally I can watch most of Frzaier fights over and over, yet I find it hard to sit down and watch Ali's fights more than once....maybe thats me.

It doesn't matter what populace worship has done to accend Ali to whatever levels he shall become revered at, after his illness and some day his death. To those of us who love a hard luck story, a rags to riches tale and any one who loves prize fighting...Frazier is a great champion. Who should be rembered for his unlikely gold medal in 1964, his war with Bonavena, his decimation of Ellis, his trench fight with Quarry, his revenge over Mathis, his dropping of Foster and his battle with Briton Bugner. Not just for his left hook that put Ali on his butt, or his losses to Foreman.

Sorry I am ranting, but I in some way share Frazier's anger over Ali's pop culture this is not so much Ali's fault but those who tend to claim to be boxing fan's yet who go no further than those generic posters, and doco's you find at cheap as cheaps.

Kym

Hard to argue with any of that. Good post.

..

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Odd, I posted this three times. I think I was having trouble submitting it.

Ezzard wrote:One thing about Ali's taunts was that he usually kept them for black fighters. Ali knew that pulling the 'what's my name' trick on white boxers would not be recieved too well.

That's untrue, Ali did taunt white fighters. That said, it is true that Ali would get angrier when black fighters would call him "Cassius Clay". Bonavena called him "Cassius" but Ali didn't get quite as angry. It seems to me, going by Ali's comments, specifically to Terrell, that he seemed to expect black people to respect his name, while he didn't seem to be too surprised when it was a white opponent calling him "Cassius." But that's just my interpretation of it.

dempseyfire wrote:Yes, the gorilla comment was very racial. Ali made Frazier into the image of the dumb black Uncle Tom, who said 'yessir' to the white man, living off his strength but no brains. Frazier didn't understand why the son of a sharecropper who rose from the South into the HW championship wouldn't be elevated in the black community above a middle-class, half-white loudmouth from Louisville.

I would have prefered it if you had addressed my reply, rather than ignoring it, but that's fine. Either way, I disagree. "Uncle Tom" is a racial slur, but I think you are jumping to conclusions about Ali's intentions in calling Frazier a "gorilla." Ali made up names for many of his opponents (rabbit, bear, acorn, washer woman) and I don't know that "gorilla" was meant by Ali to be a slur related to race. It certainly was an insult to Frazier's intelligence, I wouldn't disagree there.

dempseyfire wrote:I don't believe this is some pathetic grab at "attention" (the comments he made were always to low-level boxing writers and in informal conversation)

That's obviously not true. Champions Forever, Ali's biography, the HBO documentary on Ali-Frazier I, ESPN's biography on Frazier, and now this article by ESPN. Frazier has hardly been low key about it. Not to say he should be, but after all this time I do wonder if Joe likes the attention it brings him.

Ezzard wrote:Well, it's one that rumbles on... I think 60-70% is nto really representative. Ali would never have had an easy time with Frazier.

Ali was better than 60-70% against Frazier in the first fight, but Frazier was also better than 60-70% in the rematches, too. I've said this in the past, but it works both ways; If Ali doesn't have any excuses for the first fight, Frazier has no excuses for the rematches either. I don't see the logic in saying that Frazier beats Ali at their best. It seems to me that the Ali-Frazier rematches have been downplayed in the past few years, along with the significance of Ali's ring rust in the first fight. People so much like the idea of Frazier making Ali pay in the first fight for his comments, and knocking him down in the process, that they don't want to have to spoil it by recognizing that Frazier lost the trilogy. The rematches are inconvenient to the story, people want the story to end with Frazier shutting Ali up.

As to Robinson's idea that Ali's status is blown up and exagerrated by his fans and popularity... one could say that of any famous fighter; Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Holyfield, Leonard, Chavez, Duran. No?

Robinson wrote:Ali is popular as he is a T-shirt and poster personality these days, kinda like Bruce Lee. Alot of younger people buy memorabilia, and so on because its actually available and maybe a few DVD doco's watch half of them and then become 'experts' on HW boxing and the man himself.

"He could beat anyone..." They say.

"Why " You ask..

"Because ... he is the best" And of course this opinion is based on what they are told...or hear.

Its funny how often people tell me Ali is the greatest, without having never watched a full fight of his nor having seen any other fighter, yet they have such a firm and absolute opinion.

I love Ali, and think he was ONE of the greatest, but just because you get told something over and over again doesn't make it so...I want to watch alot more fights of other legends before I jump on the band waggon. I think Frazier is hurt and rightly so because to a vast majority he is rememberd as one of Ali's opponents and the only fights of his you can get is him vs Ali, and oh yeah...he was KO'd by Foreman in 'When we were kings'.

Personally I can watch most of Frzaier fights over and over, yet I find it hard to sit down and watch Ali's fights more than once....maybe thats me.

It doesn't matter what populace worship has done to accend Ali to whatever levels he shall become revered at, after his illness and some day his death. To those of us who love a hard luck story, a rags to riches tale and any one who loves prize fighting...Frazier is a great champion. Who should be rembered for his unlikely gold medal in 1964, his war with Bonavena, his decimation of Ellis, his trench fight with Quarry, his revenge over Mathis, his dropping of Foster and his battle with Briton Bugner. Not just for his left hook that put Ali on his butt, or his losses to Foreman.

Sorry I am ranting, but I in some way share Frazier's anger over Ali's pop culture this is not so much Ali's fault but those who tend to claim to be boxing fan's yet who go no further than those generic posters, and doco's you find at cheap as cheaps.

Kym

Stunning stuff.

One of the best posts I've read.