BoxRec

dagosd2000 wrote:Jofre was starting to get stale by the time he fought Harada. Between the Harada fights he fought a draw with with a journeynan fighter:Manny Elias.

Certain commission rules in Brazil mandate that a fighter must win a fight by a certain number of points (4, I believe) in order to get the decision... otherwise, the fight is a draw. That's what happened in the first Elias fight. Jofre got the better of the fight, but not by enough points to get the decision.


Getting back to the topic, here's two other examples:

Rafael Herrera - Rubin Olivares
Virgil Hill - Fabrice Tiozzo

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Vernon Forrest handing Mosley two ass-whoopings I think would qualify as a more recent example.

I've only seen it once, and years ago, but you would consider Forrest-Mosley II an ass whooping?

My2Sense wrote:

granberry wrote: Tiger Jones--Ray Robinson (even though they only had one fight)

Even though they only fought once, I think it's fair to claim that one guy has another guy's number, if the guy who loses is totally dominated (as Robinson was) and never gives the winner a rematch even though one is readily available (as it was in this case).

IMO, no matter who a fighter is (even one as almighty as Robinson), the burden of proof should always be on the guy who loses to prove it was indeed a "fluke", and not on the guy who wins to prove he can do it again.

Whether or not it is a fluke, it is gibberish to claim that Jones had Robinson's number. Robinson looked like shit, he was coming off his layoff.

Antonio Margarito - Kermit Cintron

Mark Wills - Greg Page

Sumbu Kalambay - Herol Graham

Joe Frazier - Jerry Quarry

Henry Cooper - Brian London

Marlon Starling - Mark Breland

Antonio Tarver - Roy Jones

Flump wrote:Antonio Margarito - Kermit Cintron

Mark Wills - Greg Page

Sumbu Kalambay - Herol Graham

Joe Frazier - Jerry Quarry

Henry Cooper - Brian London

Marlon Starling - Mark Breland

Antonio Tarver - Roy Jones

agree with all of yours except the last. jones has a win over tarver, even though it was close.

bjermaine wrote:

Flump wrote:Antonio Margarito - Kermit Cintron

Mark Wills - Greg Page

Sumbu Kalambay - Herol Graham

Joe Frazier - Jerry Quarry

Henry Cooper - Brian London

Marlon Starling - Mark Breland

Antonio Tarver - Roy Jones

agree with all of yours except the last. jones has a win over tarver, even though it was close.

True, but compared to any of Jones' other opponents up to that point Tarver gave him fits. He then knocked him out and pretty easily decisioned him in the rubber match, I think it's a fair argument.

Tarver has Jones number
Davey Hilton jr-Mario Cusson
Winky Wright-Shane Mosley
Hopkins-Trinidad
Peden-Campbell
Maskaev-Rahman
Golota-Bowe
Pavlik-Taylor
Ayala-Tapia

Jaywheel wrote:Tarver has Jones number
Davey Hilton jr-Mario Cusson
Winky Wright-Shane Mosley
Hopkins-Trinidad
Peden-Campbell
Maskaev-Rahman
Golota-Bowe
Pavlik-Taylor
Ayala-Tapia

More expertise on display from pugilistic newcomer, Jaywheel. Only someone who hadn't a clue what they were speaking of could ever be convinced a fighter like Antonio Tarver had Roy Jones' number. Did Ezzard Charles have Joe Louis' number? Did Leotis Martin have Sonny Liston's number? LOL.

Then there is the small matter of Jaywheel's assertion Golota had Bowe's number --- a fighter he failed to best in two outings --- their only two outings. Points for enthusiasm, Jaywheel

irene- are you LOL'ing at someone for suggesting Tarver had jones' number?

you're laughing at someone suggesting that fighter A, having beaten fighter B twice and made a good case for winning the first fight, has fighter B's number?

Counter-puncher wrote:irene- are you LOL'ing at someone for suggesting Tarver had jones' number?

you're laughing at someone suggesting that fighter A, having beaten fighter B twice and made a good case for winning the first fight, has fighter B's number?

Did Martin have Liston's number? Did Charles have Louis'?

Anyone who takes a look at Jones in his pomp (Super-Middle, through to early Light-Heavy) & compares it with a prime Tarver should know what their three fights actually amount to.

Golota was ahead on all cards in both bouts when DQ'ed. He exposed Bowe in a way that Bowe never wanted to fight Lewis for he knew what the outcome would be. RJJ was not convincing in any of his fights against Tarver, and the weight loss is not the only reason.

Irene laughing and dissing but not coming up with anything constructive. Shockingly surprising... Now that you dropped the POOR defense thread where no one was backing you up with your Ali and JCC picks and Gatti diss, you follow me here. I'm flattered.

Jaywheel wrote:Golota was ahead on all cards in both bouts when DQ'ed. He exposed Bowe in a way that Bowe never wanted to fight Lewis for he knew what the outcome would be. RJJ was not convincing in any of his fights against Tarver, and the weight loss is not the only reason.

Irene laughing and dissing but not coming up with anything constructive. Shockingly surprising... Now that you dropped the POOR defense thread where no one was backing you up with your Ali and JCC picks and Gatti diss, you follow me here. I'm flattered.

I go where the comedy is, Jaywheel :)

well thats fine if we are comparing records on some mythical 'p4p greatest' type basis. but we're not, are we? we're talking about whether one fighter had another's number INSIDE THE RING.

correct me if i am wrong but I'd say winning 2 fights out of 3 and the 3rd by way of KTFO is a decent case for having someone's number in the ring, I'd say.

let me say again the thread isn't titled 'fighter who was better than another' but 'had the other guy's number'. thats not about mythical or hypothetical matches where you talk about 'peak' or 'early in his lightheavy career' - a habit of mine in any case- but what happened in the ring.

so you could respond to the thread as its titled, or if you prefer just sit there making snidey LOL comments, but believe me its not jaywheel that comes across as smallminded and petty when you do so

I come up with 9 choices. For sure, Bowe-Golotta is debattable since Golotta ended up on the losing side. The other 8 are legitimate answers since I don't pretend in being the boxing supreme connoisseur. And I don't recall you naming one of them prior to me.
Perhaps if people like you (Irene) who think they're superior since they post a lot, and who laugh at newcomers instead of exchanging knowledge that could benefit everyone, discussed what they disagree on by providing better examples as proof to their point, you would see more MMA fans or occasionnal watchers(the ones who only saw DLH-PBF) getting interested and educated about a sport that is not doing that well in terms of following.

Goodnight, Irene wrote: Anyone who takes a look at Jones in his pomp (Super-Middle, through to early Light-Heavy) & compares it with a prime Tarver should know what their three fights actually amount to.

Half the fighters mentioned in this thread looked better than the fighter who turned out to have his number. And it almost always was a big surprise when the fighter lost. That's nothing new.

You could easily substitute the names Roy and Tarver in your quotes with a dozen other names mentioned in this thread. Take Mosley and Forrest, for example:

Only someone who hadn't a clue what they were speaking of could ever be convinced a fighter like Vernon Forrest had Shane Mosley's number. Did Ezzard Charles have Joe Louis' number? Did Leotis Martin have Sonny Liston's number? LOL.

Anyone who takes a look at Mosley in his pomp (Lightweight, through to early Welter) & compares it with a prime Forrest should know what their two fights actually amount to.

Counter-puncher wrote:well thats fine if we are comparing records on some mythical 'p4p greatest' type basis. but we're not, are we? we're talking about whether one fighter had another's number INSIDE THE RING.

correct me if i am wrong but I'd say winning 2 fights out of 3 and the 3rd by way of KTFO is a decent case for having someone's number in the ring, I'd say.

let me say again the thread isn't titled 'fighter who was better than another' but 'had the other guy's number'. thats not about mythical or hypothetical matches where you talk about 'peak' or 'early in his lightheavy career' - a habit of mine in any case- but what happened in the ring.

so you could respond to the thread as its titled, or if you prefer just sit there making snidey LOL comments, but believe me its not jaywheel that comes across as smallminded and petty when you do so

There is nothing, "mythical" about it, Counter-P. It's right there for anyone to see. Tarver caught Jones at the right time in his career, & anyone who denies it is, frankly, delusional. If you are going to (wrongly) perceive this as purely a results-oriented thread, then please answer me --- did Leotis Martin have Sonny Liston's number? How about Charles & Louis? Remember, nothing, "mythical" just the results, please. This is where an iota of common sense (something you have more than your fair dose of, if most of your posts are any guide) enters the thread. Let's not be glib & say, "well, that's what happened in the ring, & that's all there is to it." Clearly, that is not the case.

My2Sense wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote: Anyone who takes a look at Jones in his pomp (Super-Middle, through to early Light-Heavy) & compares it with a prime Tarver should know what their three fights actually amount to.

Half the fighters mentioned in this thread looked better than the fighter who turned out to have his number. And it almost always was a big surprise when the fighter lost. That's nothing new.

You could easily substitute the names Roy and Tarver in your quotes with a dozen other names mentioned in this thread. Take Mosley and Forrest, for example:

Only someone who hadn't a clue what they were speaking of could ever be convinced a fighter like Vernon Forrest had Shane Mosley's number. Did Ezzard Charles have Joe Louis' number? Did Leotis Martin have Sonny Liston's number? LOL.

Anyone who takes a look at Mosley in his pomp (Lightweight, through to early Welter) & compares it with a prime Forrest should know what their two fights actually amount to.

There is an important point to be noted, though, My2. Forrest twice bested a prime (relative to the division) Mosley. It happened. You cannot, however, use that to say, "Tarver would have beaten Jones when both men were at their peak." That didn't happen, & while it's not something I'd consider impossible, the odds I would consider mighty small.

In any case, exceptions don't make rules.

Jaywheel wrote:I come up with 9 choices. For sure, Bowe-Golotta is debattable since Golotta ended up on the losing side. The other 8 are legitimate answers since I don't pretend in being the boxing supreme connoisseur. And I don't recall you naming one of them prior to me.
Perhaps if people like you (Irene) who think they're superior since they post a lot, and who laugh at newcomers instead of exchanging knowledge that could benefit everyone, discussed what they disagree on by providing better examples as proof to their point, you would see more MMA fans or occasionnal watchers(the ones who only saw DLH-PBF) getting interested and educated about a sport that is not doing that well in terms of following.

Bowe-Golota isn't debatable. It really isn't. Had Golota had his number, he would have won, at least once. Bowe hung in there, & Golota couldn't deal with that. No numbers exchanged.

I have transgressed in that I've not entered my own list before criticising someone elses? Alright, then, now show me one poster in this entire forum who has never once done the same. Pulling them up, too, I hope. Of course you aren't, they aren't, "picking on you" (A legitimate gripe, as we've conversed in a whopping TWO threads, now).

I don't want MMA fans or occasional watchers in boxing, money brought in or otherwise. Occasional fans & pseudo-boxing followers are the reasons shows such as The Contender, which bring boxing into disrepute, can flourish. Don King, who has been a blight on boxing, caters to the, "occasional" crowd of MTV-raised imbeciles. I'm sure more than one person here will rush to King's defence. Abominable.

You have yourself a nice day, MMA fan.

Forrest-Mayorga
Mosley-Forrest
Mosley-Vargas
Wright-Mosley
Taylor-Hopkins
Pavlik-Taylor
Pacquiao-Barrera
Jones-Barrera
Holyfield-Tyson

I think Golota did have Bowe's ticket.

Now had Bowe fought when he was in his prime and Golota in his
I think he may have done better, but I still feel that he does not do well
against a big, strong physicaly aggressive fighter, a man like Golota in both
bouts.

Golota at times in his fights was a tenaciously hard jabbing and vicious
punching guy who had decent fitness for a man of his size. This will
provide difficulties to most men period.

This does not mean that Lewis had Bowe's number, not that we shall
ever know how they fared as pro's. What it does mean as that both
Bowe and especially Golota are both men with very limited peaks.

The Lewis, Tyson, Brewster blow outs aside, Golota had a lot of qualities that
made for a good fighter. At the same time he has way to many more
flaws. And this is why he never became a champ and has in many
ways become the butt of many jokes..which is sad because it
over looks many victories and near victories he has achieved.


I think Barkley and Hearns is a great exmple.

So is Foreman-Frazier.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:well thats fine if we are comparing records on some mythical 'p4p greatest' type basis. but we're not, are we? we're talking about whether one fighter had another's number INSIDE THE RING.

correct me if i am wrong but I'd say winning 2 fights out of 3 and the 3rd by way of KTFO is a decent case for having someone's number in the ring, I'd say.

let me say again the thread isn't titled 'fighter who was better than another' but 'had the other guy's number'. thats not about mythical or hypothetical matches where you talk about 'peak' or 'early in his lightheavy career' - a habit of mine in any case- but what happened in the ring.

so you could respond to the thread as its titled, or if you prefer just sit there making snidey LOL comments, but believe me its not jaywheel that comes across as smallminded and petty when you do so

Remember, nothing, "mythical" just the results, please. This is where an iota of common sense (something you have more than your fair dose of, if most of your posts are any guide) enters the thread. Let's not be glib & say, "well, that's what happened in the ring, & that's all there is to it." Clearly, that is not the case.

Now that you are done licking Counter-P's balls, what really happened?. When did in his prime Jones actually beat Tarver? NEVER. It's not like B-Hop KO'ed RJJ 3 times in the last years. Then you might have a case in pointing out that B-Hop didn't have RJJ's number while in their prime. You are making a case out of speculation. You have great expertise in what never happened inside the ring.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Jaywheel wrote:I come up with 9 choices. For sure, Bowe-Golotta is debattable since Golotta ended up on the losing side. The other 8 are legitimate answers since I don't pretend in being the boxing supreme connoisseur. And I don't recall you naming one of them prior to me.
Perhaps if people like you (Irene) who think they're superior since they post a lot, and who laugh at newcomers instead of exchanging knowledge that could benefit everyone, discussed what they disagree on by providing better examples as proof to their point, you would see more MMA fans or occasionnal watchers(the ones who only saw DLH-PBF) getting interested and educated about a sport that is not doing that well in terms of following.

Bowe-Golota isn't debatable. It really isn't. Had Golota had his number, he would have won, at least once. Bowe hung in there, & Golota couldn't deal with that. No numbers exchanged.

I have transgressed in that I've not entered my own list before criticising someone elses? Alright, then, now show me one poster in this entire forum who has never once done the same. Anyone wants to come to Irene's rescue??? Hot potatoe, let's throw it away...

I don't want MMA fans or occasional watchers in boxing, money brought in or otherwise. Occasional fans & pseudo-boxing followers are the reasons shows such as The Contender, which bring boxing into disrepute, can flourish. Don King, who has been a blight on boxing, caters to the, "occasional" crowd of MTV-raised imbeciles. I'm sure more than one person here will rush to King's defence. Abominable.

You have yourself a nice day, MMA fan.

Now where did I say I was a MMA fan? Should stop LOL overuse a little, open your eyes and read well.

Such a delicate little thing, aren't we, Cheerwheel.

Wipe away your tears & break out the pom-poms. Show us what you do best, Cheerwheel

irene I'm afraid we disagree on the idea of 'fighter who had the other guy's number' which to me can only possibly involve when they met in the ring. its not a comparison of careers thread in which case clearly Jones would rate higher than Tarver. a little bit anyway

a small question though- as someone else has mentioned before, Jones didn't have to lose sooooo much weight before Tarver, not enough, in my eyes, to make it impossible for him to beat Tarver IF he was as much better than Tarver as everyone (or roy fans at least) suggests.

also I distinctly recall plenty of people with good knowledge of boxing suggesting that Tarver may be the right fighter to give Jones a good fight, well before they met. largely on the basis of his southpaw style and decent athleticism.

It's not really having a guy's number if you beat him when he was way over the hill. These kind of fights really don't prove very much.

I also think that a lot these cases aren't really what the author (dagosd2000) of this post meant. If you go back to his origninal post you will see that he meant cases where the better fighter lost to an inferior fighter, presumably atleast twice.
Some of these examples are really just a case of the better fighter winning, which is usually the case.

elmersalsa wrote:

Borinken25 wrote:Thomas Hearns would’ve KO Duran at any weight class and at any time. Hearns did have Duran’s number.

He could not beat Sugar Ray at welterweight, how he's gonna beat Duran?

Because of styles. Duran was built all wrong for Hearns, Leonard and Durans styles were nothing alike.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Such a delicate little thing, aren't we, Cheerwheel.

Wipe away your tears & break out the pom-poms. Show us what you do best, Cheerwheel

Another convincing point, good work