BoxRec

thepocketrocket wrote:

WildWaylon wrote:

Greg Nicholas wrote:Calzaghe being top is just ridiculous to me, considered he hasnt fought anyone.. where are the Tszyu's, Collazo's and Castillo's..? Or the DeWitt's, Barkley's and McClennan's..?

He lost to Robin Reid, he was knocked down by Byron Mitchell and Kabary Salem, he's fought once or twice a year for 11 yrs.. it just doesn't add up to me, sorry.. if your going to lose and be knocked down, atleast lose and be knocked down to someone abit handy like a Watson or a Eubank..

Its the British top 10.

He means in Calzaghes record...

Hatton is the greatest European ever, or at least post war(always hate comparing with the olden days)

Calzaghe has spent the last 10 years fighting nobodies...actually scratch that, Mr Nicholas put it well enough!

Lewis never fought a great in their prime and for the most part fought them when they were shot! Thats not his fault but has tpo be judged accordingly, he suffers in the same way Marciano suffers in such debates...

Ricky has beaten Two hall of fame entrants and is fighting the King of Boxing on Saturday night, to me, even though his reign has been shorter than Calzaghes its been more explosive

Seriously Pocket. How can you say Lewis never fought a great in his prime and then summon Kostya and Castillo as luminaries in Hatton's resume?

Was Castillo any less burned out than say Tyson. I'd venture not much in it, I certainly suspect their level of motivation was of a similar level.

Are you suggesting Holyfield and Tyson wont make the Hall of Fame?

The Tszyu and Castillo wins are light years better than Joe's over Lacy and Kessler. Come on. Go back more than than two and a half years and no one would have given Lacy or Kessler much chance against Joe, they were seen as average and people wanted him to move up to light-heavy.

Maybe not 'light years' then, but they were greater wins over much greater fighters.

DavidPayne wrote:

thepocketrocket wrote:

WildWaylon wrote: Its the British top 10.

He means in Calzaghes record...

Hatton is the greatest European ever, or at least post war(always hate comparing with the olden days)

Calzaghe has spent the last 10 years fighting nobodies...actually scratch that, Mr Nicholas put it well enough!

Lewis never fought a great in their prime and for the most part fought them when they were shot! Thats not his fault but has tpo be judged accordingly, he suffers in the same way Marciano suffers in such debates...

Ricky has beaten Two hall of fame entrants and is fighting the King of Boxing on Saturday night, to me, even though his reign has been shorter than Calzaghes its been more explosive

Seriously Pocket. How can you say Lewis never fought a great in his prime and then summon Kostya and Castillo as luminaries in Hatton's resume?

Was Castillo any less burned out than say Tyson. I'd venture not much in it, I certainly suspect their level of motivation was of a similar level.

Are you suggesting Holyfield and Tyson wont make the Hall of Fame?

Tszyu and Castillo had demolished Mitchell and Corrales a year before and were featuring on 'lb4lb' lists.

They were great wins, no one giving Ricky a prayer against Kostya but him sticking to him like glue and never stopping punching, to make him quit and claim the undisputed title. And one of the most perfect body punches in boxing history, top of the bill in Las Vegas to make a Mexican great quit.

DavidPayne wrote:

thepocketrocket wrote:

WildWaylon wrote: Its the British top 10.

He means in Calzaghes record...

Hatton is the greatest European ever, or at least post war(always hate comparing with the olden days)

Calzaghe has spent the last 10 years fighting nobodies...actually scratch that, Mr Nicholas put it well enough!

Lewis never fought a great in their prime and for the most part fought them when they were shot! Thats not his fault but has tpo be judged accordingly, he suffers in the same way Marciano suffers in such debates...

Ricky has beaten Two hall of fame entrants and is fighting the King of Boxing on Saturday night, to me, even though his reign has been shorter than Calzaghes its been more explosive

Seriously Pocket. How can you say Lewis never fought a great in his prime and then summon Kostya and Castillo as luminaries in Hatton's resume?

Was Castillo any less burned out than say Tyson. I'd venture not much in it, I certainly suspect their level of motivation was of a similar level.

Are you suggesting Holyfield and Tyson wont make the Hall of Fame?

Im serious Mr Payne...

Kostya and Castillo were past their peak, no doubt but are far more dangerous than Holy(who won the 2nd fight) and Tyson..

If we go back before that magical night when Haton dethroned Kostya, the consensus of opinion is that Zoo would put Hatton on ice, he had come back and smashed Sharmba Mitchell in chilling fashion, hattons performance that night just not be painted by any for of revisionism, no-one thought Kostya was shot, he was still awsome!

Castillo had just come off a dodgy performance against Ngoudjo but hadnt lost for a while and had demolished Corrales, in no way was he shot..was it the same Castillo who foght Mayweather, probably not but mark my words, he could win a title at LW, and that body shot would have dropped Castillo circa 2000

Now Holy and Tyson were shells of their former selves(especially Tyson) The were like old men trying to remember how they made their bodies do that good work long ago...

Once again I dont hold that against Lennox, he wanted the fights, he just wasnt a money maker, but as i said his record is judged by WHAT he beat, not WHO he beat..

Calzaghe wants to go to America now Hopkins is 57

Only Ricky Hatton and Mrs Castillo had Jose in the P4P list when Ricky fought him. Come on.

Castillo was a shadow of himself, as exemplified by his terrible debut at 140lbs versus Njoudo and his win over Corrales, was as much about weight as any proximity to prime.

I don't want to totally, denigrate the victory, because it was credible but by the same token I would venture Lewis' second tier wins versus Golota, Ruddock, Mercer, Grant, Klitschko, Tua and Bruno given their respective place and form at the time he faced them would stand proud against Tackie, Phillips, Magee, Olivera, Stewart etc.

The Mitchell performance by KT certainly mitigates any accusations of being shot, but it would be easy to point to his subsequent retirement and inactivity in the preceding years and his own struggles with mediocre fighters like Leija before winning.

You also cannot grandly announce Mercer beat Lewis easily as a fact, no more than I could suggest Hatton should have been stopped versus Thaxton or was 'helped' by Vann against Magee when rocked the second time.

Hatton is a special, special fighter. If he's shut-out versus Mayweather will he still top your list?

Don't get me wrong, I have a good feeling Ricky is going to win come Saturday. I still make Floyd favourite, but I think Hatton has a terrific chance. As always the first minute will be very telling.

DavidPayne wrote:Only Ricky Hatton and Mrs Castillo had Jose in the P4P list when Ricky fought him. Come on.

Castillo was a shadow of himself, as exemplified by his terrible debut at 140lbs versus Njoudo and his win over Corrales, was as much about weight as any proximity to prime.

I don't want to totally, denigrate the victory, because it was credible but by the same token I would venture Lewis' second tier wins versus Golota, Ruddock, Mercer, Grant, Klitschko, Tua and Bruno given their respective place and form at the time he faced them would stand proud against Tackie, Phillips, Magee, Olivera, Stewart etc.

The Mitchell performance by KT certainly mitigates any accusations of being shot, but it would be easy to point to his subsequent retirement and inactivity in the preceding years and his own struggles with mediocre fighters like Leija before winning.

You also cannot grandly announce Mercer beat Lewis easily as a fact, no more than I could suggest Hatton should have been stopped versus Thaxton or was 'helped' by Vann against Magee when rocked the second time.

Hatton is a special, special fighter. If he's shut-out versus Mayweather will he still top your list?

Don't get me wrong, I have a good feeling Ricky is going to win come Saturday. I still make Floyd favourite, but I think Hatton has a terrific chance. As always the first minute will be very telling.

As always you make a good argument..I would argue(though many would shoot me down) that Castillos performance against Ngoudjo wasnt bad, Ngoudjo was far better than expected, i expected a sacrifial lamb and when Hermann wasnt beeing given the smelling salts after 3 rounds we questioned Castillo..

Ngoudjo went and beat Randall Bailey, we may find hes an Ndou type fighter...

I dont fall out at all with the comparison between hattons second teir opposition and Lewis', very similar...I just feel KT and JLC are so much better that Tyson and Holy....

Calzaghe keeping a belt warm for 10 years, refusing to travel ect doesnt even compare to these two

I think the accusation of Calzaghe failing to travel is harsh as he became the clear stand out champion in the division. Ottke clearly never fancied the job and Calzaghe, when the opponent and money was right, did travel.

However, what always irked me more was the fact, controversial or not, Ottke always got to the Americans first. Brewer, Mitchell just two examples.

Calzaghe missed too many other champions to usurp Hatton, Lewis, Honeyghan, Buchanan et al for me. He's a tremendously gifted fighter, tough as nails and tremendously conditioned but he didn't face a long list of leading contemporaries and in Eubank, Woodhall, Mitchell, Brewer, Lacy and Kessler has a shallow pool of leading competition given his longevity. And some of those were deeply flawed victories, either because of inexperience, age or ring wear.

If anyone mentions Joe not fighting in the states ill do my nut in


Someone always throws this in at times like this


when, in the last 10 years, has there been any money at 168 pounds in the States?


or anywhere else outside of Germany and UK?

Tua had beaten, was it three future heavyweight belt holders before getting to Lewis.

Lacy had beaten?

Agreed on Tua over Lacy...

Well if Calzaghe wanted a fight in the States he should have dropped his belt and moved up to LH..

If Hatton doesnt like whats on offer he vacates the belt and fights Collazo at short notice, JLC and now the King of Boxing...

He could have sat on his belt since Kostya, he didnt

HBO dictated those steps more than Hatton's clamour for competition but you can't argue too much with Kostya-Castillo-Mayweather, regardless of the interim shyte over 30 months.

STP wrote:Maybe not 'light years' then, but they were greater wins over much greater fighters.

Calzaghe's wins were over fresher fighters and he beat Kessler and Lacy more convincingly than Hatton beating Tszyu.

Floyd's the only guy Hatton won't be picking at the right time and Floyd could Lacy him.

Max Molyneux wrote:

STP wrote:Maybe not 'light years' then, but they were greater wins over much greater fighters.

Calzaghe's wins were over fresher fighters and he beat Kessler and Lacy more convincingly than Hatton beating Tszyu.

Floyd's the only guy Hatton won't be picking at the right time and Floyd could Lacy him.

Your not serious are you, come on???

Hatton beat a living legend, Calzaghe beat Lacy and Kessler(Kessler could prove to be good, we will see) he mad Kostyya quit on his stool, Calzaghe won by a round on mine and other peoples cards, maybe 2...

That makes Hattons win better believe it or not

Are you serious to think Calzaghe won by a round Vs Kessler? That was 9 rounds to 3 and even HBO had wide scores. Kessler was taking alot of fast straight shots while he was only giving single stuff most of the time.

Tszyu was chosen at the right time and Hatton still had to go to war while Calzaghe puts on boxing lessons.

I don't care for names, Joe's performances where better and much cleaner within the rules.

I do like Hatton but this feels like a mismatch since a slick fast counter puncher with timing has a chance to beat Hatton. His chins all out In the air when he dives In with no defence to rough house a fighter and excessively hold.

Terry D wrote:Lennox Lewis.

Fought some, well one, great fighter(s) in a dangerous division. Fought one dangerous hombre to cement his bank balance, oops, I actually meant to say "in laying to rest the grotesque myth of Mike Tyson Lewis ensured that his legacy would be enshrined in boxing history as long as we debate this great heavyweight sport and it's flagship division".

Yeah Because Mike Tyson Was the Fastest, Strongest and Composed as he ever was then. He also Had a Solid Corner, and he also wasn't Fighting for money, no, he would never fight for money...

IMO Calzaghe is a much better boxer than Hatton, that is not to discreidt Ricky. Joe is superior in terms of adaptability, fluidity, speed. I like Hatton, but not been impressed with him in recent years, been irritated by his holding at times, though strategically I understand why he has done it late on in fights when his stamina has gone. Which also raises another thing Calzaghe has over Hatton, amazing stamina. Joe cant fight at ridiculous pace non-stop. Lacy's people thoght he would tire and could not continue at that rate, but he did, easily.

As for Lennox Lewis, respect the opinions on this site which deem LL as the best of British, but I truly could not stand him as a fighter. Good jab, but it bored me. Excellent world champ, particularly for a big world champ - 6'5, but never got me excited. Never liked a tear-up and would not have been good in one. Not exactly amazing stamin and pretty flat footed. Plus was sparked out twice, the second while he was laughing - questionable defence at times and of course, questionable chin. Just never liked him as a boxer.

calzaghe is the better of the 2.

he can mix it up.

plus he has that terrific handspeed that makes him that bit special.

My opinion is that if Calzaghe and Hatton were both the same size Calzaghe would be more likely to win.

Max Molyneux wrote:Are you serious to think Calzaghe won by a round Vs Kessler? That was 9 rounds to 3 and even HBO had wide scores. Kessler was taking alot of fast straight shots while he was only giving single stuff most of the time.

Tszyu was chosen at the right time and Hatton still had to go to war while Calzaghe puts on boxing lessons.

I don't care for names, Joe's performances where better and much cleaner within the rules.

I do like Hatton but this feels like a mismatch since a slick fast counter puncher with timing has a chance to beat Hatton. His chins all out In the air when he dives In with no defence to rough house a fighter and excessively hold.

i thought it was a close fight.

7 rds to 5 for me.

disagree that calzaghe won as wide as 9-3.

Max Molyneux wrote:Are you serious to think Calzaghe won by a round Vs Kessler? That was 9 rounds to 3 and even HBO had wide scores. Kessler was taking alot of fast straight shots while he was only giving single stuff most of the time.

Tszyu was chosen at the right time and Hatton still had to go to war while Calzaghe puts on boxing lessons.

I don't care for names, Joe's performances where better and much cleaner within the rules.
I do like Hatton but this feels like a mismatch since a slick fast counter puncher with timing has a chance to beat Hatton. His chins all out In the air when he dives In with no defence to rough house a fighter and excessively hold.

some of calzaghe's fights have been a right mess.

david starie fight anyone.

kabary salem.

i agree calzaghe is better but let's not be silly now.

Calzaghe's fight with Bika was painful to watch, because it was such a mess. Against Kessler, though, Calzaghe clearly won, imo.

fist wrote:IMO Calzaghe is a much better boxer than Hatton, that is not to discreidt Ricky. Joe is superior in terms of adaptability, fluidity, speed. I like Hatton, but not been impressed with him in recent years, been irritated by his holding at times, though strategically I understand why he has done it late on in fights when his stamina has gone. Which also raises another thing Calzaghe has over Hatton, amazing stamina. Joe cant fight at ridiculous pace non-stop. Lacy's people thoght he would tire and could not continue at that rate, but he did, easily.

As for Lennox Lewis, respect the opinions on this site which deem LL as the best of British, but I truly could not stand him as a fighter. Good jab, but it bored me. Excellent world champ, particularly for a big world champ - 6'5, but never got me excited. Never liked a tear-up and would not have been good in one. Not exactly amazing stamin and pretty flat footed. Plus was sparked out twice, the second while he was laughing - questionable defence at times and of course, questionable chin. Just never liked him as a boxer.

I agree with this assessment. Overall Calzaghe has the best repetoire of skills, and that includes Lewis, although, for a big man, Lewis was far more skilled than most.

Joe has shown pretty impressive versatility over his career, and the fact he boxed Kessler to a standstill for the majority of their fight, and just plain bamboozled an aggressive brawler like Lacy, annihilating him to boot, confirms this.

However, Ricky is good at that he does, and more versatile than some would suggest.

Asterix wrote:Calzaghe's fight with Bika was painful to watch, because it was such a mess. Against Kessler, though, Calzaghe clearly won, imo.

i agree he won.

and no one could suggest kessler even got so much as a draw.

but i definitely thought it was close.

i've watched the fight a few times since and think it's more 7 rds to 5 than a 9 rds to 3 score.

You must train yo eyes shoalin style to have noticed all those fast straights hitting Kessler's face though.

Calzaghe wouldn't of been rocked by a light hitter like Callazo either.