BoxRec

delisa wrote:Was Kid Gavilan ever knocked down in 143 fights_

Basilio had him down when Carmen was fighting for Gavilan's title. Gavilan took a knee.

Seamus wrote:I thought Bob Murphy dropped LaMotta, but the only knockdown I noticed on his resume was Danny Nardico near the end of his career.

Nardico had him down. Only fighter to do it.

Seamus wrote:I thought Bob Murphy dropped LaMotta, but the only knockdown I noticed on his resume was Danny Nardico near the end of his career.

I probably should have checked that myself. Thanks Seamus.

Billy Graham had well over a hundred fights and I think he was never down.
Helluva fighter this guy was although he was well before my time .
Id enjoy seeing footage if its out there.
Some older fight guys I have known talk about how great this guy was.

Expug wrote:Billy Graham had well over a hundred fights and I think he was never down.
Helluva fighter this guy was although he was well before my time .
Id enjoy seeing footage if its out there.
Some older fight guys I have known talk about how great this guy was.

Billy Graham was a puzzling fighter.

He had a characteristic that only the very best have---a judgement of distance that was top level.

He was an expert at timing your punch at him and countering immediately afterward, almost as you had hardly thrown your punch.

He had a powerful neck and thick calves.

He was all left hand.

His jab was so heavy that seemed to stop other aspects of his fighting.

When I saw him throw a right hand the first time I said to myself, "He must be joking." He looked like someone imitating a 12 year old girl doing everything wrong in throwing a right hand. He actually would throw a right hand at times with his right foot off the floor. It made no sense.
With everything else he knew, why couldn't he throw an adequate right hand?

There was much to learn from watching him--his timing with counters, his great left jab. He definitely had a great chin.

Later he was a referee, and I am sure a good one.

There is a film of his fight witrh a young Carmen Basilio.

Years later Basilio was much better.

I repeat Gavilan was knocked down by Carlos Malacara, Julio Cesar Jimenez, Ike Williams and Carmen Basilio. Four times down, never stopped.

Most ignored hard chin in boxing was former European middleweight champ Ignacio Ara. The man was a rated fighter, fought very good talent and was never stopped in almost 180 pro fights.

DaveV17 wrote:Oliver McCall. Never been down in a fight, never been down in hundreds of rounds of sparring with the prime Mike Tyson. I've never seen him stunned or hurt.
Even when McCall had the breakdown after literally walking out of drug rehab and into the ring with Lennox Lewis he didn't go down. Lewis was hitting him cleanly as McCall walked around with his hands down and Lewis couldn't hurt him. McCall has the best chin I have seen.

Absolutely right.

He has an amazing capacity to hold a punch.

What about Jake LaMotta?

chuvalo may have been stopped but staying on his feet against mindblowing onslaughts is what this thread is about. chuvalo gets a big nod from me

dempseyfire wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Up until Walcott, Marciano wasn't ever knocked down as a professional. At the time Marciano had 42 fights. 42 fights without so much as a knockdown is pretty impressive.

But to be fair look at who he'd fought. LaStarza and Kid Matthews wern't really know as big Heavyweight hitters.

Ring magazine had an article many years ago about "Hiroshima Bombers with Dresden Jaws." It related to big hitters who never got to the top because of their suspect mandibles. I am sure Roland La Starza was mentioned.

Brute wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Up until Walcott, Marciano wasn't ever knocked down as a professional. At the time Marciano had 42 fights. 42 fights without so much as a knockdown is pretty impressive.

But to be fair look at who he'd fought. LaStarza and Kid Matthews wern't really know as big Heavyweight hitters.

Ring magazine had an article many years ago about "Hiroshima Bombers with Dresden Jaws." It related to big hitters who never got to the top because of their suspect mandibles. I am sure Roland La Starza was mentioned.

I am sure La Starza was not mentioned.

You know ziltch about La Starza, brute.

What is the point of posting your own fantasies in place of facts?

Sicko.

wow gran - first buzz and now brute comes in for a lashing from your irate finger. come on, its xmas and all that lastarza was no big hitter its true

Julio Cesar Chavez wasn't dropped unitl his 90th fight with Randall and that was a past his prime Chavez.

granberry wrote:

Expug wrote:Billy Graham had well over a hundred fights and I think he was never down.
Helluva fighter this guy was although he was well before my time .
Id enjoy seeing footage if its out there.
Some older fight guys I have known talk about how great this guy was.

Billy Graham was a puzzling fighter.

He had a characteristic that only the very best have---a judgement of distance that was top level.

He was an expert at timing your punch at him and countering immediately afterward, almost as you had hardly thrown your punch.

He had a powerful neck and thick calves.

He was all left hand.

His jab was so heavy that seemed to stop other aspects of his fighting.

When I saw him throw a right hand the first time I said to myself, "He must be joking." He looked like someone imitating a 12 year old girl doing everything wrong in throwing a right hand. He actually would throw a right hand at times with his right foot off the floor. It made no sense.
With everything else he knew, why couldn't he throw an adequate right hand?

There was much to learn from watching him--his timing with counters, his great left jab. He definitely had a great chin.

Later he was a referee, and I am sure a good one.

There is a film of his fight witrh a young Carmen Basilio.

Years later Basilio was much better.

It's pearls like these that make the "granberry wait" worth it. He's like old faithful...or the clock that that is stopped that is guaranteed to be right twice a day..(if it is analog). I think he has an interesting take on Billy Graham's boxing and I choose to believe him on this one.

However....just as the the stopped clock resumes it's errors once that specific minute has passed, it appears he has moved right on to things of which he knows little. OR...he has some bit of faith that he operates under....which would indeed be puzzling. granberry seems to have "selective faith".

Example A. He assumes Billy was a good ref based on...... uh...well nothing at all. He's just "sure" period. I suppose he is assuming the best from someone he just simply appreciates in other areas of endeavor. (Just as if one were to assume that George Foreman would be a good salesman just because he was a great KO artist.) Yet he will bellow and wail at others for doing the same thing regarding other topics. (I'm not saying Billy was good or bad as a ref...I'm just pointing out that granberry is "sure" for no reason other than his dependency on his own "good judgement".)

However granberry demonstrates little if any faith in some situations that he seems to arbitrarily decide is unworthy of same. Thus is the mystery of the inconsisitent nature of our resident "expert", The Royal "Granduker of Pugilia" otherwise known as granberry.

BoxBuzz wrote: granberry seems to have "selective faith".

Example A. He assumes Billy was a good ref based on...... uh...well nothing at all. He's just "sure" period. I suppose he is assuming the best from someone he just simply appreciates in other areas of endeavor. (Just as if one were to assume that George Foreman would be a good salesman just because he was a great KO artist.) Yet he will bellow and wail at others for doing the same thing regarding other topics. (I'm not saying Billy was good or bad as a ref...I'm just pointing out that granberry is "sure" for no reason other than his dependency on his own "good judgement".)

However granberry demonstrates little if any faith in some situations that he seems to arbitrarily decide is unworthy of same. Thus is the mystery of the inconsisitent nature of our resident "expert", The Royal "Granduker of Pugilia" otherwise known as granberry.

buzz steps in it yet again.

Feminine spite will get you nowhere, buzz.

Buzz has never seen Billy Graham referee.

I doubt if buzz is competent enough when it comes to boxing to determine which of the three figures in the ring is the referee.

I saw Billy Graham referee the Jimmy Young-Wendell Bailey fight.

This was a grotesquely fat Jimmy Young who looked liked he needed a bra fighting Baltimore's Wendell Bailey, a strongly built heavyweight who was getting his big chance---
a chance to get a win hopefully on his record over a fighter who had once beaten Ali, Foreman and Ron Lyle.

In the first round Bailey landed a right hand which made Young take a step back (remember Young's chin was so good he was never knocked down by Foreman, Ali, Lyle (two fights).

Young didn't like that. He didn't do anything the rest of the round.

Part way through the second round he started hitting Bailey with body shots. Bailey had a bodybuilder's physique (like Ken Norton) with a tiny midsection---completely wrong for boxing, which requires a thickly muscled (not fat) midsection to take body shots.
The body shots were bothering Bailey.

In the third round Young continued the body beating and mixed in combinations to the head--left hook--right hand--left hook.

(He NEVER threw combinations against Ali, Foreman, Lyle)

In the gym he was the best combination puncher of any heavyweight I ever saw.

Here he wanted to get rid of Bailey so he pulled out the combinations.

Young dropped Bailey and clueless Larry Merchant IMMEDIATELY said, "I didn't see any punch."

Young had just been clobbering Bailey with a variety of head shots.

What is interesting is that those were the exact words Howard Cosell said when Jimmy Young knocked Foreman down in the 12th and final round of their fight.

Young landed 6 right hands in a row and on the last one Foreman went down and Cosell IMMEDIATELY said, "I didn't see any punch."

Bailey got up and Young hit him again with the pinpoint combinations and Bailey fell into the ropes and referee Graham stopped the fight.

Bailey did not object.

Apparently referee Billy Graham, with HIS background in boxing,

did "see a punch."

What would compel a spiteful, low mentality halfwit like buzz to scout around boxrec offering nothing more than his pathetic ignorance of boxing, combined with his sicko attempts to snipe at another poster?

.

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote: granberry seems to have "selective faith".

Example A. He assumes Billy was a good ref based on...... uh...well nothing at all. He's just "sure" period. I suppose he is assuming the best from someone he just simply appreciates in other areas of endeavor. (Just as if one were to assume that George Foreman would be a good salesman just because he was a great KO artist.) Yet he will bellow and wail at others for doing the same thing regarding other topics. (I'm not saying Billy was good or bad as a ref...I'm just pointing out that granberry is "sure" for no reason other than his dependency on his own "good judgement".)

However granberry demonstrates little if any faith in some situations that he seems to arbitrarily decide is unworthy of same. Thus is the mystery of the inconsisitent nature of our resident "expert", The Royal "Granduker of Pugilia" otherwise known as granberry.

buzz steps in it yet again.

Feminine spite will get you nowhere, buzz.

Buzz has never seen Billy Graham referee.

I doubt if buzz is competent enough when it comes to boxing to determine which of the three figures in the ring is the referee.

I saw Billy Graham referee the Jimmy Young-Wendell Bailey fight.

This was a grotesquely fat Jimmy Young who looked liked he needed a bra fighting Baltimore's Wendell Bailey, a strongly built heavyweight who was getting his big chance---
a chance to get a win hopefully on his record over a fighter who had once beaten Ali, Foreman and Ron Lyle.

In the first round Bailey landed a right hand which made Young take a step back (remember Young's chin was so good he was never knocked down by Foreman, Ali, Lyle (two fights).

Young didn't like that. He didn't do anything the rest of the round.

Part way through the second round he started hitting Bailey with body shots. Bailey had a bodybuilder's physique (like Ken Norton) with a tiny midsection---completely wrong for boxing, which requires a thickly muscled (not fat) midsection to take body shots.
The body shots were bothering Bailey.

In the third round Young continued the body beating and mixed in combinations to the head--left hook--right hand--left hook.

(He NEVER threw combinations against Ali, Foreman, Lyle)

In the gym he was the best combination puncher of any heavyweight I ever saw.

Here he wanted to get rid of Bailey so he pulled out the combinations.

Young dropped Bailey and clueless Larry Merchant IMMEDIATELY said, "I didn't see any punch."

Young had just been clobbering Bailey with a variety of head shots.

What is interesting is that those were the exact words Howard Cosell said when Jimmy Young knocked Foreman down in the 12th and final round of their fight.

Young landed 6 right hands in a row and on the last one Foreman went down and Cosell IMMEDIATELY said, "I didn't see any punch."

Bailey got up and Young hit him again with the pinpoint combinations and Bailey fell into the ropes and referee Graham stopped the fight.

Bailey did not object.

Apparently referee Billy Graham, with HIS background in boxing,

did "see a punch."

What would compel a spiteful, low mentality halfwit like buzz to scout around boxrec offering nothing more than his pathetic ignorance of boxing, combined with his sicko attempts to snipe at another poster?
.

Your most hypocritical comment so far, crankberry.

How come you aren't posting as RABID these days?

Collins2000 wrote:

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote: granberry seems to have "selective faith".

Example A. He assumes Billy was a good ref based on...... uh...well nothing at all. He's just "sure" period. I suppose he is assuming the best from someone he just simply appreciates in other areas of endeavor. (Just as if one were to assume that George Foreman would be a good salesman just because he was a great KO artist.) Yet he will bellow and wail at others for doing the same thing regarding other topics. (I'm not saying Billy was good or bad as a ref...I'm just pointing out that granberry is "sure" for no reason other than his dependency on his own "good judgement".)

However granberry demonstrates little if any faith in some situations that he seems to arbitrarily decide is unworthy of same. Thus is the mystery of the inconsisitent nature of our resident "expert", The Royal "Granduker of Pugilia" otherwise known as granberry.

buzz steps in it yet again.

Feminine spite will get you nowhere, buzz.

Buzz has never seen Billy Graham referee.

I doubt if buzz is competent enough when it comes to boxing to determine which of the three figures in the ring is the referee.

I saw Billy Graham referee the Jimmy Young-Wendell Bailey fight.

This was a grotesquely fat Jimmy Young who looked liked he needed a bra fighting Baltimore's Wendell Bailey, a strongly built heavyweight who was getting his big chance---
a chance to get a win hopefully on his record over a fighter who had once beaten Ali, Foreman and Ron Lyle.

In the first round Bailey landed a right hand which made Young take a step back (remember Young's chin was so good he was never knocked down by Foreman, Ali, Lyle (two fights).

Young didn't like that. He didn't do anything the rest of the round.

Part way through the second round he started hitting Bailey with body shots. Bailey had a bodybuilder's physique (like Ken Norton) with a tiny midsection---completely wrong for boxing, which requires a thickly muscled (not fat) midsection to take body shots.
The body shots were bothering Bailey.

In the third round Young continued the body beating and mixed in combinations to the head--left hook--right hand--left hook.

(He NEVER threw combinations against Ali, Foreman, Lyle)

In the gym he was the best combination puncher of any heavyweight I ever saw.

Here he wanted to get rid of Bailey so he pulled out the combinations.

Young dropped Bailey and clueless Larry Merchant IMMEDIATELY said, "I didn't see any punch."

Young had just been clobbering Bailey with a variety of head shots.

What is interesting is that those were the exact words Howard Cosell said when Jimmy Young knocked Foreman down in the 12th and final round of their fight.

Young landed 6 right hands in a row and on the last one Foreman went down and Cosell IMMEDIATELY said, "I didn't see any punch."

Bailey got up and Young hit him again with the pinpoint combinations and Bailey fell into the ropes and referee Graham stopped the fight.

Bailey did not object.

Apparently referee Billy Graham, with HIS background in boxing,

did "see a punch."

What would compel a spiteful, low mentality halfwit like buzz to scout around boxrec offering nothing more than his pathetic ignorance of boxing, combined with his sicko attempts to snipe at another poster?
.

Your most hypocritical comment so far, crankberry.

How come you aren't posting as RABID these days?

buzz' buttboy collins shows up on cue.

Between the two of them they put their stench over boxrec.

Terap, you really are a great read.

Well granberry you have redeemed yourself by referring to data that you have empirically witnessed/experienced to support your argument......
and I am pleased with my results. If by irritating you in this manner it gets more "blow by blow" descriptors of fights like these that you have seen with your own eyes then my work here is acceptable!

My guess? Is that in this case your description is accurate...it's just a guess. All non Ali related information seems to hold up under scrutiny as long as it's objective info...and not personal opinion. Your internal camera appears to be reliable and worth the read. Your "color commentary" and judgement regarding certain fighters is far more controversial.

Have you ever seen Archie Moore fight?
How many times?
Were you impressed with his skills/talent/heart?

As I have commented many times he is my favorite fighter of all time based on his work ethic.

Oh and granberry...if you don't like me I'm ok with that...and I hold no bad feelings your way. I just like a good debate here and there....and you seem to be pretty damn durable in that department. But you should probably lay off the "anal fixation" that you appear to nurture with your Collins references. He's a reasonable chap on occasion. He just calls Bullshit when he sees it.....nothing to get anxious about really.

I intend to offer you 74% increased respect going into the '08 season based on your apparent good humor and what I believe to be your genuine proximity factor with some of the greats of all time. I sort of hope you get into your background history and your role within the sport as I think it has great appeal to the readers here. This includes your one man campaign to discredit some of the greatest fighters of all time.

Did you spar with any of them? Were you part of any of their entourages? Were you part of a training crew? I suspect you may have been....or maybe your older brother was and you got to "hang around" with them on occasion.

Oh...and isn't the referee the guy who gets hit the least in the fight? Let me know if I got that one right. I've been watching pretty close lately and that's my final answer.

buzz fills up boxrec with the stench of his petty fixation on one poster.

Poor buzz' mentality is so low that he thinks if he fills of space with his petty fixation and his non boxing comments he is somehow posting on "boxing."

The buzzes of this world don't belong around boxing.

But the internet enables them, at least in their own pathetic minds, to have some "connection" with boxing.

granberry wrote:buzz fills up boxrec with the stench of his petty fixation on one poster.

Poor buzz' mentality is so low that he thinks if he fills of space with his petty fixation and his non boxing comments he is somehow posting on "boxing."

The buzzes of this world don't belong around boxing.

But the internet enables them, at least in their own pathetic minds, to have some "connection" with boxing.

Aha...so you really just want me to quit commenting here? Why didn't you just say so! Think of me as the "truth squad" you can say anything you like...and all I'll do is ask you questions like...."from what source?".....and "how do you know that to be true"?.....and "where did you get your information".? Questions that any humble student would ask. Otherwise anyone could just wander in and say anything.....anytime and people might just go along with it......you know....like the lemmings you like to refer to.

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:buzz fills up boxrec with the stench of his petty fixation on one poster.

Poor buzz' mentality is so low that he thinks if he fills of space with his petty fixation and his non boxing comments he is somehow posting on "boxing."

The buzzes of this world don't belong around boxing.

But the internet enables them, at least in their own pathetic minds, to have some "connection" with boxing.

Aha...so you really just want me to quit commenting here? Why didn't you just say so! Think of me as the "truth squad" you can say anything you like...and all I'll do is ask you questions like...."from what source?".....and "how do you know that to be true"?.....and "where did you get your information".? Questions that any humble student would ask. Otherwise anyone could just wander in and say anything.....anytime and people might just go along with it......you know....like the lemmings you like to refer to.

Lemmings? You mean like Dave and RABID?

Actually, scratch RABID from the list; I just remembered that is Crankberry's other login.

We started talking about Carlos Monzon on my thread about cuts. This will be a good add on this thread about good"whiskers" When Valdez had Monzon down at the end of Carlos's career,it was the first time in 13 years.

Duilio Loi 126 fights and never knocked down.

Mike Tyson.

I think his first knockdown was to Douglas. his 38th fight?