BoxRec

I Feel Fine wrote:Dingleberry is trying to present Ali-Young as Ali somehow being exposed by a better technical boxer, when the fact is Ali had met better technical boxers and had never had the kinds of problems he had in landing on Young. It wasn't just Young's skill, it was the fat sluggish Ali missing shots because he was out of shape and his timing was off. Young was able to slip and duck under Ali's hooks, but if Ali was in better shape and a bit younger his shots would have been much quicker and more accurate, rather than the sloppy punches he threw in that fight.

Anyone who watches Ali-Young and thinks they're seeing Ali getting exposed is either an idiot or hasn't seen Ali at his best. Compare the Ali that fought Young to the Ali who fought Patterson or Ellis or Quarry. Better timing, better speed, accurate pinpoint punching. He's simply not the same fighter when he fights Young, which was a fight where Ali was shot and out of shape. Its like watching Holmes-Spinks or Holyfield-Toney and saying that those two sucked and lost because of their opponents "superior skill," rather than because they were old and, in Holmes', case fat.

I'm sure Young at 230 pounds at 34 years of age, coming off a Joe Frazier trilogy, would have done just fine with a prime Ali, eh granberry? After all, he knew how to avoid Ali's "girlish" hooks.

Completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine claimed he was competent to judge "boxing."

I asked completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine to answer a simple question.

Completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine couldn't answer my simple question because he is completely and totally incompetent when it comes to "boxing."

So he posts some more gibberish.

And pretends he knows what "boxing" is.

ANSWER MY QUESTION, halfwit.

Your INCOMPETENCE shows when you write that Young "ducked under" Ali's hooks.

You are a phony, halfwit.

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Dingleberry is trying to present Ali-Young as Ali somehow being exposed by a better technical boxer, when the fact is Ali had met better technical boxers and had never had the kinds of problems he had in landing on Young. It wasn't just Young's skill, it was the fat sluggish Ali missing shots because he was out of shape and his timing was off. Young was able to slip and duck under Ali's hooks, but if Ali was in better shape and a bit younger his shots would have been much quicker and more accurate, rather than the sloppy punches he threw in that fight.

Anyone who watches Ali-Young and thinks they're seeing Ali getting exposed is either an idiot or hasn't seen Ali at his best. Compare the Ali that fought Young to the Ali who fought Patterson or Ellis or Quarry. Better timing, better speed, accurate pinpoint punching. He's simply not the same fighter when he fights Young, which was a fight where Ali was shot and out of shape. Its like watching Holmes-Spinks or Holyfield-Toney and saying that those two sucked and lost because of their opponents "superior skill," rather than because they were old and, in Holmes', case fat.

I'm sure Young at 230 pounds at 34 years of age, coming off a Joe Frazier trilogy, would have done just fine with a prime Ali, eh granberry? After all, he knew how to avoid Ali's "girlish" hooks.

Completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine claimed he was competent to judge "boxing."

I asked completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine to answer a simple question.

Completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine couldn't answer my simple question because he is completely and totally incompetent when it comes to "boxing."

So he posts some more gibberish.

And pretends he knows what "boxing" is.

ANSWER MY QUESTION, halfwit.

Your INCOMPETENCE shows when you write that Young "ducked under" Ali's hooks.

You are a phony, halfwit.

Crankberry, a man who claims to be a boxing expert thinks the Ali of the jimmy Young fight was prime Ali.

Poor Crankberry, the man who wants to be taken seriously but is only seen as a fekkwad.

Perhaps he should create some more fake logins and pretend someone agrees with his ridiculous posts.

dingleberry wrote:Completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine claimed he was competent to judge "boxing."

I asked completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine to answer a simple question.

Completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine couldn't answer my simple question because he is completely and totally incompetent when it comes to "boxing."

So he posts some more gibberish.

And pretends he knows what "boxing" is.

ANSWER MY QUESTION, halfwit.

Your INCOMPETENCE shows when you write that Young "ducked under" Ali's hooks.

You are a phony, halfwit.

Are you illiterate? I did answer your question. Now answer my question, dingleberry. Would Young, at 230 pounds and at 34 years old, beat Ali in his prime?

I Feel Fine wrote:

dingleberry wrote:Completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine claimed he was competent to judge "boxing."

I asked completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine to answer a simple question.

Completely and totally incompetent Ifeelfine couldn't answer my simple question because he is completely and totally incompetent when it comes to "boxing."

So he posts some more gibberish.

And pretends he knows what "boxing" is.

ANSWER MY QUESTION, halfwit.

Your INCOMPETENCE shows when you write that Young "ducked under" Ali's hooks.

You are a phony, halfwit.

Are you illiterate? I did answer your question. Now answer my question, dingleberry. Would Young, at 230 pounds and at 34 years old, beat Ali in his prime?

Completely and Totally incompetent Ifeelfine thinks he "answered" my question,

because he doesn't have a clue what boxing is.

This halfwit had the gall to post that he was competent to discuss "boxing."

I asked the clueless halfwit

WHAT DID JIMMY YOUNG DO when Ali threw his left slap---

What Young did is perfectly visible to anyone who is competent when it comes to boxing.

That was my FIRST question for the clueless phony Ifeelfine.

He can't answer it.

But he goes right on happily posting his gibberish and thinks he is discussing "boxing."

ANSWER MY QUESTION, halfwit.

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:I didn't say Young wasn't a good boxer dingleberry, I said he was not the best boxer Ali had met to that point. And he wasn't. He fought a good fight, but his effectiveness was more due to Ali's state. How would Young at 34 and 230 pounds do against a prime Ali? Not good.

ifeelfine presumes he is qualified to discuss "boxing."

He also claims he saw the boxing lesson to end all boxing lessons Jimmy Young gave Ali.

ifeelfine,

Tell us all what Jimmy Young did EVERY TIME Ali threw his girlish, amateurish left slap (no one could call it a left hook).

Why did Ali miss 150 or more of this "punch" ?

Many of them by a foot or more.

Why didn't Ali ever adjust?

Why did he keep missing and missing and missing the same laft hand for the entire fight?

What Young did each time is perfectly visible to anyone who is competent when it comes to "boxing."

TELL US what Young did, ifeelfine.

You brought up the subject of "boxing."

You posed as one competent to discuss the subject.

ANSWER MY QUESTION, ifeelfine.

Then I have many more about the "BOXING" in this same fight.

I got to see this fight on film....I am curious 8) 8) 8)

I answered your question dingleberry. As I said, he ducked and slipped away from the punch. He would also often counter to the body after Ali would miss with the punch.

Either that, or he stuck his head through the ropes like a pussy in order to avoid it.

elmersalsa wrote:I got to see this fight on film....I am curious 8) 8) 8)

After all your rhetoric about this fight you haven't actually seen it on film? Sort of like Robinson-Gavilan, eh?

2 things about Ali/Young:Don King promoted this fight and there was a lot of controversy about the margin of victory for Ali. Many people felt there was no way Ali was going to lose a decision. Was that why he came in at 230 lbs? Young was a very good fighter at that time. Why would Ali come in out of shape?

The 2nd point is when I watched the fight, Young outsmarted Ali. Young lured him in,made him miss almost everytime, countered enough,landed more punches(there weren't many from either man)in my opinion,to win. How many times did I see Ali fight a slow down pace where he had to use all his guile(and get breaks from the refs about holding) to win a boring decision. I thought Jimmy pulled an Ali on Ali that night,outsmarted him,but lost. I never saw Ali more exasperated. I think the judges had him ahead by 4 or 5 rounds. No way. And this brings me back to Don King. Spinks 2,the Norton fights. What's right is right. Ali had more than Angelo Dundee in his corner.

I Feel Fine wrote:I answered your question dingleberry. As I said, he ducked and slipped away from the punch. He would also often counter to the body after Ali would miss with the punch.

Incompetent Ifeelfine is an ASS.

WHAT DID YOUNG DO when Ali threw his left slap, halfwit?

It is perfectly visible to anyone who has a rudimentary knowledge of boxing.

You stupid ASS, Young never ducked a hooking punch.

WHAT DID HE DO, you halfwit?

ANSWER MY QUESTION, you incompetent ASS.

dagosd2000 wrote:2 things about Ali/Young:Don King promoted this fight and there was a lot of controversy about the margin of victory for Ali. Many people felt there was no way Ali was going to lose a decision. Was that why he came in at 230 lbs? Young was a very good fighter at that time. Why would Ali come in out of shape?

The 2nd point is when I watched the fight, Young outsmarted Ali. Young lured him in,made him miss almost everytime, countered enough,landed more punches(there weren't many from either man)in my opinion,to win. How many times did I see Ali fight a slow down pace where he had to use all his guile(and get breaks from the refs about holding) to win a boring decision. I thought Jimmy pulled an Ali on Ali that night,outsmarted him,but lost. I never saw Ali more exasperated. I think the judges had him ahead by 4 or 5 rounds. No way. And this brings me back to Don King. Spinks 2,the Norton fights. What's right is right. Ali had more than Angelo Dundee in his corner.

I think Young won that fight. But you imply the judges weren't incompetent, merely corrupt.

You suggest Ali was in on it too by implying he knew the fight was bought and paid for.

Spinks (2) - You suggest Ali shouldn't have got the decision in that one also. How did you score it?

Umm, yes, Ali would throw a hook and Young would typically duck out of the way of it, then hit Ali in the body. Perhaps "duck" isn't the technical word, but that's generally what he did.

As for dagos' post, I don't see why people are so quick to assume conspiracy for everything that involves Ali. He probably didn't know much about Young and doubtfully took him too seriously, he was expected to stop Young and win easy, even if Young was a highly rated fighter, so he came in bad shape. He was already a shot or borderline shot fighter by then, anyway. To say Ali "knew" he would get the decision is silly. And, come on, Ali-Spinks II was not a robbery. I don't understand what you mean when you say "the Norton fights," Norton got the first decision, he was not robbed there, and only like 2% of the people I've ever encountered thought Ali didn't win the second fight.

This whole thread is extremely sad. GB honestly go outside and take a walk or something. Your obsessive bitterness towards a man you've never met is way deep down in pathological disorder territory.

dempseyfire wrote:This whole thread is extremely sad. GB honestly go outside and take a walk or something. Your obsessive bitterness towards a man you've never met is way deep down in pathological disorder territory.

Granberry claims he has met Ali. Assuming it actually happened, I'd love to know what that meeting was like

Collins2000 wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:2 things about Ali/Young:Don King promoted this fight and there was a lot of controversy about the margin of victory for Ali. Many people felt there was no way Ali was going to lose a decision. Was that why he came in at 230 lbs? Young was a very good fighter at that time. Why would Ali come in out of shape?

The 2nd point is when I watched the fight, Young outsmarted Ali. Young lured him in,made him miss almost everytime, countered enough,landed more punches(there weren't many from either man)in my opinion,to win. How many times did I see Ali fight a slow down pace where he had to use all his guile(and get breaks from the refs about holding) to win a boring decision. I thought Jimmy pulled an Ali on Ali that night,outsmarted him,but lost. I never saw Ali more exasperated. I think the judges had him ahead by 4 or 5 rounds. No way. And this brings me back to Don King. Spinks 2,the Norton fights. What's right is right. Ali had more than Angelo Dundee in his corner.

I think Young won that fight. But you imply the judges weren't incompetent, merely corrupt.

You suggest Ali was in on it too by implying he knew the fight was bought and paid for.

Spinks (2) - You suggest Ali shouldn't have got the decision in that one also. How did you score it?

I don't think Ali knew about anything. Example:After the 2nd Liston fight,his first question to his corner was"Was it a fix?" Ali didn't have the "moxie" nor did King or the Nation of Islam want him to know anything that was not outside a boxing ring. Ali was a very naive man,almost like a boy. His understanding of history or how the world operated was practically unknown to him.

I'm glad you asked me about Spinks II. About 6 months ago I was watching a replay of what I thought was Spinks I. Spinks was out working Ali. Ali was holding,fighting in half ass flurries. Ferdie Pacheco was doing the "color". Everytime Ali missed with a punch,Pacheco made it sound like Ali had landed one. I asked myself"What the hell is he looking at?" Then I became aware that I was watching the 2nd fight. The judges had Ali winning by 6 rounds! Incredible.

Keep in mind,promoters,television,closed screen,and sports news made millions off of Ali. Ali was in demand to do talk shows,speek at colleges. Every wanna be broadcaster wanted his interview. How many times did you see him on a magazine cover? What could they have made with Young and Spinks?They had no charisma. Ali was as much an entertainer as he was a fighter. Only thing is the spin doctors behind him didn't want to let him in on what was going on behind the curtains.

dagosd2000 wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:2 things about Ali/Young:Don King promoted this fight and there was a lot of controversy about the margin of victory for Ali. Many people felt there was no way Ali was going to lose a decision. Was that why he came in at 230 lbs? Young was a very good fighter at that time. Why would Ali come in out of shape?

The 2nd point is when I watched the fight, Young outsmarted Ali. Young lured him in,made him miss almost everytime, countered enough,landed more punches(there weren't many from either man)in my opinion,to win. How many times did I see Ali fight a slow down pace where he had to use all his guile(and get breaks from the refs about holding) to win a boring decision. I thought Jimmy pulled an Ali on Ali that night,outsmarted him,but lost. I never saw Ali more exasperated. I think the judges had him ahead by 4 or 5 rounds. No way. And this brings me back to Don King. Spinks 2,the Norton fights. What's right is right. Ali had more than Angelo Dundee in his corner.

I think Young won that fight. But you imply the judges weren't incompetent, merely corrupt.

You suggest Ali was in on it too by implying he knew the fight was bought and paid for.

Spinks (2) - You suggest Ali shouldn't have got the decision in that one also. How did you score it?

I don't think Ali knew about anything. Example:After the 2nd Liston fight,his first question to his corner was"Was it a fix?" Ali didn't have the "moxie" nor did King or the Nation of Islam want him to know anything that was not outside a boxing ring. Ali was a very naive man,almost like a boy. His understanding of history or how the world operated was practically unknown to him.

I'm glad you asked me about Spinks II. About 6 months ago I was watching a replay of what I thought was Spinks I. Spinks was out working Ali. Ali was holding,fighting in half ass flurries. Ferdie Pacheco was doing the "color". Everytime Ali missed with a punch,Pacheco made it sound like Ali had landed one. I asked myself"What the hell is he looking at?" Then I became aware that I was watching the 2nd fight. The judges had Ali winning by 6 rounds! Incredible.

Keep in mind,promoters,television,closed screen,and sports news made millions off of Ali. Ali was in demand to do talk shows,speek at colleges. Every wanna be broadcaster wanted his interview. How many times did you see him on a magazine cover? What could they have made with Young and Spinks?They had no charisma. Ali was as much an entertainer as he was a fighter. Only thing is the spin doctors behind him didn't want to let him in on what was going on behind the curtains.

Ali didn't know about anything?

He knew a lot more than Most Boxers... Than most people infact...

the fact that hw as 27 (ish) and was Drafted for Vietnam, when in reality it was the 20-22 year olds who were drafted. If he never knew anything he could have got to Vietnam and say "Ill Whoop the VC" etc. etc.

You need to understand that with people like Ali, there is more than meets the eye.

it was all about $$$ and getting those Belts.

Look at how he managed to fight who he wanted, where other fighters would have been brushed to the side

dagosd2000 wrote:Ali was as much an entertainer as he was a fighter. Only thing is the spin doctors behind him didn't want to let him in on what was going on behind the curtains.

Right, so again its being suggested that Ali was a media creation and that without help he wouldn't have gotten to where he was. Nonsense. He did not lose that fight, and even if he did, who really cares? He shouldn't have even been fighting, he should have retired three years earlier.

If Ali was smart he would have retired after Manila, or at least after Coopman. He would have been 49-2 or 50-2, two time champion, and he could have retired relatively healthy. Instead he fought on, got into all kinds of close fights because he had declined and he wasn't in shape half the time, and he gave his doubters all kinds of ammunition. People who question Ali's legacy focus almost exclusively on his fights that occurred after 1975; Young, Norton III, Shavers, Spinks, Holmes, Berbick. But what happened to Ali at the end of his career is the same thing that happened to Robinson, Louis, Leonard, Gavilan, Charles, Holyfield and almost any great fighter you want to name. And the breaks that Ali got at the end of his career were not unusual either, Ali didn't get any more breaks than Larry Holmes got at the end of his career, for example. Ali would have been better off losing to Young, perhaps beating him in a rematch, and retiring. He'd be a lot healthier today.

You are using logic and reasoning. Good luck with that with the anti-Ali people!
For them, Ali didn't really beat Liston, the years 1964-1967 don't exist (when Ali make 9 title defenses in 3 years) and Ali didn't come back from a long layoff and came out on top as the best heavyweight in the strongest era ever in the heavyweight division.

They would of course rather talk about the end of his career and all the supposed "bad decisions" that went his way. It has now gotton to the point where someone is actually saying that Ali shouldn't have got the decision against Spinks in the rematch. Wow.

I cant really say much about the Ali-Young fight as I never got to watch it entirely, but I do recall my father talking about how big of a bullshit decision it was, that Young really did win it...Young is one of those guys who was absoloutely on equal ground with Frazier, Norton, Ali and Foreman, but is unfortunately never mentioned among the ranks. I imagine it was because he wasnt a heavyweight hitter like Frazier and Foreman was, nor was he a mouth like Norton and Ali were, or overly entertaining. His prime was also quite short, seemed after Norton it was all over for him.

And I won't even get into the Ali mess on this thread, I've stated my opinions before, and though I don't personally rank him as the greatest fighter ever or even as the greatest heavyweight, the only thing I can say is that more than likely there is not that many heavyweights that I can name who could (as Marciano put it) even be in the same ring with him, and that he did transcend boxing from the 'sport of men' to a form of sports entertainment with his incorporations of rasslin' promos and hype. He made non-boxing fans take notice and show that there is a beauty in the violence, that there is a poetry between the four sides of the ring.

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:I answered your question dingleberry. As I said, he ducked and slipped away from the punch. He would also often counter to the body after Ali would miss with the punch.

Incompetent Ifeelfine is an ASS.

WHAT DID YOUNG DO when Ali threw his left slap, halfwit?

It is perfectly visible to anyone who has a rudimentary knowledge of boxing.

You stupid ASS, Young never ducked a hooking punch.

WHAT DID HE DO, you halfwit?

ANSWER MY QUESTION, you incompetent ASS.

people will sometimes use different words to describe what they see.....not all will utilize "clinically correct" jargon. Why don't you teach instead of insult? You'd probably make a better teacher than a Don Rickles. You just don't have Don's smooth delivery.

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:I answered your question dingleberry. As I said, he ducked and slipped away from the punch. He would also often counter to the body after Ali would miss with the punch.

Incompetent Ifeelfine is an ASS.

WHAT DID YOUNG DO when Ali threw his left slap, halfwit?

It is perfectly visible to anyone who has a rudimentary knowledge of boxing.

You stupid ASS, Young never ducked a hooking punch.

WHAT DID HE DO, you halfwit?

ANSWER MY QUESTION, you incompetent ASS.

people will sometimes use different words to describe what they see.....not all will utilize "clinically correct" jargon. Why don't you teach instead of insult? You'd probably make a better teacher than a Don Rickles. You just don't have Don's smooth delivery.

Oh, I dunno, buzzy. Crankberry's posts have the smooth flow, the consistency and, most of all, the odour of a bad case of diarhoea.

I Feel Fine wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:Ali was as much an entertainer as he was a fighter. Only thing is the spin doctors behind him didn't want to let him in on what was going on behind the curtains.

Right, so again its being suggested that Ali was a media creation and that without help he wouldn't have gotten to where he was. Nonsense. He did not lose that fight, and even if he did, who really cares? He shouldn't have even been fighting, he should have retired three years earlier.

If Ali was smart he would have retired after Manila, or at least after Coopman. He would have been 49-2 or 50-2, two time champion, and he could have retired relatively healthy. Instead he fought on, got into all kinds of close fights because he had declined and he wasn't in shape half the time, and he gave his doubters all kinds of ammunition. People who question Ali's legacy focus almost exclusively on his fights that occurred after 1975; Young, Norton III, Shavers, Spinks, Holmes, Berbick. But what happened to Ali at the end of his career is the same thing that happened to Robinson, Louis, Leonard, Gavilan, Charles, Holyfield and almost any great fighter you want to name. And the breaks that Ali got at the end of his career were not unusual either, Ali didn't get any more breaks than Larry Holmes got at the end of his career, for example. Ali would have been better off losing to Young, perhaps beating him in a rematch, and retiring. He'd be a lot healthier today.

Observer and I feel Fine,believe me I know how you guys and a lot others feel about Ali. In all of boxing history there has never been anyone bigger than life than Ali. You could probably throw in the other sports as well. We know that after he came back he was not the same fighter that he once was. But what's right is right. Holding your opponent too much is not allowed. Believe me Ray Robinsin never got any special treatment when he came back and he lost a lot of fights.

When you mention Louis,Charles,Robinson,and Gavilan it was a dfferent generation. A lot less media,but more important it was still an adult culture. Adults dictated what the norms of society were. After Elvis,the country was handed over to the youth. The media and advertisors knew that young people were going to rise and assert themselves. Set the benchmarks for music,dress,television,morals ,movies,conduct,following the rules,the war in Vietnam. Muhammad Ali was a voice for young people. Young people did not want to see him lose. Young people are dreamers. They weren't objective,especially when Ali came back,when they saw him fight. The Rope a Dope was a thing of brilliance. No it wasn't . It was stalling. If Louis or Robinson would have resorted to the Rope a Dope they would have been disqualified back then,and more important---booed.

Ali was a showman,an entertainer. He made us laugh. Joe Louis and Ray Robinson were old guys. We did not see them in ourselves. The poor people of Zaire loved Ali,not Foreman. Ali represented the masses. I remember Elvis gave Ali a robe that said"The People's Champion" Ali wore that robe. He was proud of it.

The 70's generation did not want to see Ali's image in decline. He was allowed to hold. Rope a Dope was his intelligence .We thought of the young Ali who was on his toes,circling the ring,reciting poetry,standing over Big Bad Sonny Liston. He could do that again if he wanted. He was our conscience. Ali represents me,not my parents.

But when Ali finally fought Holmes,all the Rope a Doping and stalling in the world couldn't help him. We could see he was gone,at least as a fighter.

Believe me please I DO NOT HATE MUHAMMAD ALI. At one time he was my conscience also. I've never regretted that. It just is sooner or later you look back on things and realize that you've grown.

Not to worry.....About 2 and half years ago this board went through a "Marciano Frenzy" Where every other thread was about Rocky.....Now it's Ali.

Actually this in not on the level with the Marciano epidemic where we actually had to lock some threads to give the forum some variety or it would have been exlcusively the Rock from the top to the bottom of the page.

as with all things this too shall pass.

dagosd2000 wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:Ali was as much an entertainer as he was a fighter. Only thing is the spin doctors behind him didn't want to let him in on what was going on behind the curtains.

Right, so again its being suggested that Ali was a media creation and that without help he wouldn't have gotten to where he was. Nonsense. He did not lose that fight, and even if he did, who really cares? He shouldn't have even been fighting, he should have retired three years earlier.

If Ali was smart he would have retired after Manila, or at least after Coopman. He would have been 49-2 or 50-2, two time champion, and he could have retired relatively healthy. Instead he fought on, got into all kinds of close fights because he had declined and he wasn't in shape half the time, and he gave his doubters all kinds of ammunition. People who question Ali's legacy focus almost exclusively on his fights that occurred after 1975; Young, Norton III, Shavers, Spinks, Holmes, Berbick. But what happened to Ali at the end of his career is the same thing that happened to Robinson, Louis, Leonard, Gavilan, Charles, Holyfield and almost any great fighter you want to name. And the breaks that Ali got at the end of his career were not unusual either, Ali didn't get any more breaks than Larry Holmes got at the end of his career, for example. Ali would have been better off losing to Young, perhaps beating him in a rematch, and retiring. He'd be a lot healthier today.

Observer and I feel Fine,believe me I know how you guys and a lot others feel about Ali. In all of boxing history there has never been anyone bigger than life than Ali. You could probably throw in the other sports as well. We know that after he came back he was not the same fighter that he once was. But what's right is right. Holding your opponent too much is not allowed. Believe me Ray Robinsin never got any special treatment when he came back and he lost a lot of fights.

When you mention Louis,Charles,Robinson,and Gavilan it was a dfferent generation. A lot less media,but more important it was still an adult culture. Adults dictated what the norms of society were. After Elvis,the country was handed over to the youth. The media and advertisors knew that young people were going to rise and assert themselves. Set the benchmarks for music,dress,television,morals ,movies,conduct,following the rules,the war in Vietnam. Muhammad Ali was a voice for young people. Young people did not want to see him lose. Young people are dreamers. They weren't objective,especially when Ali came back,when they saw him fight. The Rope a Dope was a thing of brilliance. No it wasn't . It was stalling. If Louis or Robinson would have resorted to the Rope a Dope they would have been disqualified back then,and more important---booed.

Ali was a showman,an entertainer. He made us laugh. Joe Louis and Ray Robinson were old guys. We did not see them in ourselves. The poor people of Zaire loved Ali,not Foreman. Ali represented the masses. I remember Elvis gave Ali a robe that said"The People's Champion" Ali wore that robe. He was proud of it.

The 70's generation did not want to see Ali's image in decline. He was allowed to hold. Rope a Dope was his intelligence .We thought of the young Ali who was on his toes,circling the ring,reciting poetry,standing over Big Bad Sonny Liston. He could do that again if he wanted. He was our conscience. Ali represents me,not my parents.

But when Ali finally fought Holmes,all the Rope a Doping and stalling in the world couldn't help him. We could see he was gone,at least as a fighter.

Believe me please I DO NOT HATE MUHAMMAD ALI. At one time he was my conscience also. I've never regretted that. It just is sooner or later you look back on things and realize that you've grown.

So, now we've had the pop culture 101 history lesson, where do you rate Ali as a heavyweight?

No fighter in boxing history that I am aware of has ever lost a point, let alone been disqualified, for leaning on the ropes. Whether it was Moore against Marciano, Toney against Jirov, Jones against Tarver. Rope-a-dope isn't exactly a brilliant strategy and it would work for few fighters, but it worked in two of Ali's bigger fights, and whatever works works.

Ali got two gifts in his career. I would also say he should have lost to Shavers, though I wouldn't call that a robbery. Some here would have us believe that Ali should have lost half of his decisions, and that's clearly not the case. Neither the media (which, in fact, hated Ali for half his career), Howard Cosell, Thomas Hauser, the fans or even Elvis- -made Muhammad Ali. Ali could have been a quiet conservative Christian who went to Vietnam; what made his boxing career is that he cleaned out two era's of Heavyweight history and beat three top ten all time Heavyweights. That's why he's the greatest Heavyweight of all time.

I'm here to talk about boxing, not pop culture. What are we trying to do here, anyway? Downgrade every fighter that was popular? If that's the case, you can start with Dempsey, Louis and Marciano. They, in their own times, were as famous, and none of them beat anyone as good as the guys Ali beat.

Collins2000 wrote:

dagosd2000 wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Right, so again its being suggested that Ali was a media creation and that without help he wouldn't have gotten to where he was. Nonsense. He did not lose that fight, and even if he did, who really cares? He shouldn't have even been fighting, he should have retired three years earlier.

If Ali was smart he would have retired after Manila, or at least after Coopman. He would have been 49-2 or 50-2, two time champion, and he could have retired relatively healthy. Instead he fought on, got into all kinds of close fights because he had declined and he wasn't in shape half the time, and he gave his doubters all kinds of ammunition. People who question Ali's legacy focus almost exclusively on his fights that occurred after 1975; Young, Norton III, Shavers, Spinks, Holmes, Berbick. But what happened to Ali at the end of his career is the same thing that happened to Robinson, Louis, Leonard, Gavilan, Charles, Holyfield and almost any great fighter you want to name. And the breaks that Ali got at the end of his career were not unusual either, Ali didn't get any more breaks than Larry Holmes got at the end of his career, for example. Ali would have been better off losing to Young, perhaps beating him in a rematch, and retiring. He'd be a lot healthier today.

Observer and I feel Fine,believe me I know how you guys and a lot others feel about Ali. In all of boxing history there has never been anyone bigger than life than Ali. You could probably throw in the other sports as well. We know that after he came back he was not the same fighter that he once was. But what's right is right. Holding your opponent too much is not allowed. Believe me Ray Robinsin never got any special treatment when he came back and he lost a lot of fights.

When you mention Louis,Charles,Robinson,and Gavilan it was a dfferent generation. A lot less media,but more important it was still an adult culture. Adults dictated what the norms of society were. After Elvis,the country was handed over to the youth. The media and advertisors knew that young people were going to rise and assert themselves. Set the benchmarks for music,dress,television,morals ,movies,conduct,following the rules,the war in Vietnam. Muhammad Ali was a voice for young people. Young people did not want to see him lose. Young people are dreamers. They weren't objective,especially when Ali came back,when they saw him fight. The Rope a Dope was a thing of brilliance. No it wasn't . It was stalling. If Louis or Robinson would have resorted to the Rope a Dope they would have been disqualified back then,and more important---booed.

Ali was a showman,an entertainer. He made us laugh. Joe Louis and Ray Robinson were old guys. We did not see them in ourselves. The poor people of Zaire loved Ali,not Foreman. Ali represented the masses. I remember Elvis gave Ali a robe that said"The People's Champion" Ali wore that robe. He was proud of it.

The 70's generation did not want to see Ali's image in decline. He was allowed to hold. Rope a Dope was his intelligence .We thought of the young Ali who was on his toes,circling the ring,reciting poetry,standing over Big Bad Sonny Liston. He could do that again if he wanted. He was our conscience. Ali represents me,not my parents.

But when Ali finally fought Holmes,all the Rope a Doping and stalling in the world couldn't help him. We could see he was gone,at least as a fighter.

Believe me please I DO NOT HATE MUHAMMAD ALI. At one time he was my conscience also. I've never regretted that. It just is sooner or later you look back on things and realize that you've grown.

So, now we've had the pop culture 101 history lesson, where do you rate Ali as a heavyweight?

Hey buddy,awhile back we had a thread. The match you'd like to see the most when both fighters were in their prime. Mine, Ali/Louis. The winner:Muhammad Ali--the Greatest. The Greatest Heavyweight Champ of all Time!

Can't ask for more than that.