BoxRec

Jaclem wrote:..you people are just encouraging boxbuzzy. as i pointed out, his first response said it all....and with not even a word but a three letter nickname...and then comes back to add to it for no reason other than to increase his post count.

incidentally buzzy, ezzard's nickname was "snooks".

Well he sure damn well "snook" a few victories over Moore. Anyway this conjecture about these two is simply here because someone has not viewed enough of Charle's work. If you have been exposed equally to these two fighters films or had the chance to see each in real time then your no longer intrigued with this matchup.

dajuggernaut wrote:P4P on his best night nobody beats Roy Jones Jr.

You must be fearless to say that here. Wait for the daggers

WorldGreatest wrote:

dajuggernaut wrote:P4P on his best night nobody beats Roy Jones Jr.

You must be fearless to say that here. Wait for the daggers

I've been waiting for someone to give me a fighter that could beat a focused RJJ on his best night.
Awkward. Fast. Powerful.

Try Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Bob Foster, Archie Moore, Mike Spinks, Ezzard Charles, Carlos Monzon, Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, and Harry Greb, not to mention Mickey Walker, Stan Ketchel, Bob Fitzsimmons, Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Marcel Cerdan and Harold Johnson etc. A lot of these would annhilate lil Roy, and all would be 50:50 at least to crack his china chin

dr_devious wrote:Try Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Bob Foster, Archie Moore, Mike Spinks, Ezzard Charles, Carlos Monzon, Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, and Harry Greb, not to mention Mickey Walker, Stan Ketchel, Bob Fitzsimmons, Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Marcel Cerdan and Harold Johnson etc. A lot of these would annhilate lil Roy, and all would be 50:50 at least to crack his china chin

China chin? I hate when fighters get knocked out by flush shots and all of a sudden their chin is made of glass. Those shots Tarver and Johnson put on RJJ would of killed you. The "china chin" he had was later in his career after he had to drain himself to get down to 175. I'm talking about a Prime RJJ.

Like I said I think it would be competitive. But for those picking Jones, my question is this...

Who did he beat & how that makes you think he could defeat Charles? It is such a huge step up in class, that you always have to tread carefully. Jones dominated some good fighters, but to me this is like Tyson fighting that competition in the late 80's & then people discussing whether he would beat the best Heavies of all-time.

Not saying it couldn't happen, I'm just curious as to which fights convince you he could step up so far?

dajuggernaut wrote:

dr_devious wrote:Try Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Bob Foster, Archie Moore, Mike Spinks, Ezzard Charles, Carlos Monzon, Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, and Harry Greb, not to mention Mickey Walker, Stan Ketchel, Bob Fitzsimmons, Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Marcel Cerdan and Harold Johnson etc. A lot of these would annhilate lil Roy, and all would be 50:50 at least to crack his china chin

China chin? I hate when fighters get knocked out by flush shots and all of a sudden their chin is made of glass. Those shots Tarver and Johnson put on RJJ would of killed you. The "china chin" he had was later in his career after he had to drain himself to get down to 175. I'm talking about a Prime RJJ.

To be fair those were about the only serious gloves laid on him in his career....he was able to elude the incoming pretty well. But by those moments I think it becomes apparent that there was a great need for Roy to be able to avoid such shots.

BoxBuzz wrote:

dajuggernaut wrote:

dr_devious wrote:Try Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Bob Foster, Archie Moore, Mike Spinks, Ezzard Charles, Carlos Monzon, Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, and Harry Greb, not to mention Mickey Walker, Stan Ketchel, Bob Fitzsimmons, Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Marcel Cerdan and Harold Johnson etc. A lot of these would annhilate lil Roy, and all would be 50:50 at least to crack his china chin

China chin? I hate when fighters get knocked out by flush shots and all of a sudden their chin is made of glass. Those shots Tarver and Johnson put on RJJ would of killed you. The "china chin" he had was later in his career after he had to drain himself to get down to 175. I'm talking about a Prime RJJ.

To be fair those were about the only serious gloves laid on him in his career....he was able to elude the incoming pretty well. But by those moments I think it becomes apparent that there was a great need for Roy to be able to avoid such shots.

Fair enough. That proves my point even further. It took him THAT long in his career after dominating many years to get hit flush. Prime RJJ avoids the shots from the above mentioned fighters and either breaks them down into a late TKO or a wide decision.

The real fight to watch for Roy's shortcomings is Jones-Johnson.

Jones was physically gifted (and enhanced, of course) and he had a style that confounded many fighters. When he faced Johnson and he couldn't have it all his own way, as he was used to, the man folded...

If Jones dominated the first few rounds (and I said IF) then we know Charles will come right back at him. When Charles has his good rounds we can't say the same for Roy with any conviction.

Jones on his best night beat Toney. Charles on his best night...well he has so many great scalps who knows what actually was his best night.

Before I get accused of not properly appreciating Roy or of being biased towards older fighters let it be known that I can see Roy's ability. But picking him to beat a proven great like Charles doesn't add up when you look at the evidence. It's just a leap of blind faith.

dajuggernaut wrote:

dr_devious wrote:Try Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Bob Foster, Archie Moore, Mike Spinks, Ezzard Charles, Carlos Monzon, Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, and Harry Greb, not to mention Mickey Walker, Stan Ketchel, Bob Fitzsimmons, Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Marcel Cerdan and Harold Johnson etc. A lot of these would annhilate lil Roy, and all would be 50:50 at least to crack his china chin

China chin? I hate when fighters get knocked out by flush shots and all of a sudden their chin is made of glass. Those shots Tarver and Johnson put on RJJ would of killed you. The "china chin" he had was later in his career after he had to drain himself to get down to 175. I'm talking about a Prime RJJ.

Jones' reflexes were so good that he didnt take many shots throughout the first 90% of his career. Im not denying he was mega-talented. When he slowed a tad and got caught by the less than great Tarver and Johnson, he got KOd. Its hurt Jones' legacy a bit. It has to put him behind the likes of Charles, Moore and Spinks at LH and Monzon and Hagler at MW. And the mega punchers such as Ketchel and Fitz would clean Jones out if they caught up with him.
Roy is top 30-40 p4p, Charles is top 10, simple as.

Ezzard wrote:The real fight to watch for Roy's shortcomings is Jones-Johnson.

Jones was physically gifted (and enhanced, of course) and he had a style that confounded many fighters. When he faced Johnson and he couldn't have it all his own way, as he was used to, the man folded...

If Jones dominated the first few rounds (and I said IF) then we know Charles will come right back at him. When Charles has his good rounds we can't say the same for Roy with any conviction.

Jones on his best night beat Toney. Charles on his best night...well he has so many great scalps who knows what actually was his best night.

Before I get accused of not properly appreciating Roy or of being biased towards older fighters let it be known that I can see Roy's ability. But picking him to beat a proven great like Charles doesn't add up when you look at the evidence. It's just a leap of blind faith.

Charles didn't look to good at the end of his career either. We are talking Roy in his prime, Johnson is irrelevant. Or should I mention some of Ezzards last fights?

Marlin wrote:

Ezzard wrote:The real fight to watch for Roy's shortcomings is Jones-Johnson.

Jones was physically gifted (and enhanced, of course) and he had a style that confounded many fighters. When he faced Johnson and he couldn't have it all his own way, as he was used to, the man folded...

If Jones dominated the first few rounds (and I said IF) then we know Charles will come right back at him. When Charles has his good rounds we can't say the same for Roy with any conviction.

Jones on his best night beat Toney. Charles on his best night...well he has so many great scalps who knows what actually was his best night.

Before I get accused of not properly appreciating Roy or of being biased towards older fighters let it be known that I can see Roy's ability. But picking him to beat a proven great like Charles doesn't add up when you look at the evidence. It's just a leap of blind faith.

Charles didn't look to good at the end of his career either. We are talking Roy in his prime, Johnson is irrelevant. Or should I mention some of Ezzards last fights?

How many fights had Charles fought before he really slipped?? Compare that to Roy . .

BIG difference in overall mileage we're talking here.

dr_devious wrote:

dajuggernaut wrote:

dr_devious wrote:Try Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Bob Foster, Archie Moore, Mike Spinks, Ezzard Charles, Carlos Monzon, Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, and Harry Greb, not to mention Mickey Walker, Stan Ketchel, Bob Fitzsimmons, Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Marcel Cerdan and Harold Johnson etc. A lot of these would annhilate lil Roy, and all would be 50:50 at least to crack his china chin

China chin? I hate when fighters get knocked out by flush shots and all of a sudden their chin is made of glass. Those shots Tarver and Johnson put on RJJ would of killed you. The "china chin" he had was later in his career after he had to drain himself to get down to 175. I'm talking about a Prime RJJ.

Jones' reflexes were so good that he didnt take many shots throughout the first 90% of his career. Im not denying he was mega-talented. When he slowed a tad and got caught by the less than great Tarver and Johnson, he got KOd. Its hurt Jones' legacy a bit. It has to put him behind the likes of Charles, Moore and Spinks at LH and Monzon and Hagler at MW. And the mega punchers such as Ketchel and Fitz would clean Jones out if they caught up with him.
Roy is top 30-40 p4p, Charles is top 10, simple as.

P4P throughtout the career Charles was better. But if they both fought their best fight on their best night RJJ wins.

Charles is dead, so unfortunatly the fight can't happen.
As a matter of fact, I think he was dead before Jones began his pro career.
It would be competitive though, at LEAST as competitive as the 1898 Louisville Colonels against the 2007 Boston Red Sox

fourreal wrote:Charles is dead, so unfortunatly the fight can't happen.
As a matter of fact, I think he was dead before Jones began his pro career.
It would be competitive though, at LEAST as competitive as the 1898 Louisville Colonels against the 2007 Boston Red Sox

Ezz gone? Why didn't I get the memo?

dr_devious wrote:

dajuggernaut wrote:

dr_devious wrote:Try Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Bob Foster, Archie Moore, Mike Spinks, Ezzard Charles, Carlos Monzon, Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, and Harry Greb, not to mention Mickey Walker, Stan Ketchel, Bob Fitzsimmons, Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Marcel Cerdan and Harold Johnson etc. A lot of these would annhilate lil Roy, and all would be 50:50 at least to crack his china chin

China chin? I hate when fighters get knocked out by flush shots and all of a sudden their chin is made of glass. Those shots Tarver and Johnson put on RJJ would of killed you. The "china chin" he had was later in his career after he had to drain himself to get down to 175. I'm talking about a Prime RJJ.

Jones' reflexes were so good that he didnt take many shots throughout the first 90% of his career. Im not denying he was mega-talented. When he slowed a tad and got caught by the less than great Tarver and Johnson, he got KOd. Its hurt Jones' legacy a bit. It has to put him behind the likes of Charles, Moore and Spinks at LH and Monzon and Hagler at MW. And the mega punchers such as Ketchel and Fitz would clean Jones out if they caught up with him.
Roy is top 30-40 p4p, Charles is top 10, simple as.

Jones 30 or 40 p4p? Maybe... I got him ranked around the 70s spots

Jones was the best fighter of the 90s imo. He didnt fight in the greatest of eras but its fair to say hes pretty high up in the p4p ratings.
Charles has one of the best resumes in boxing history, miles better than Jones. Charles is prob top 10 p4p in history.

fourreal wrote:Charles is dead, so unfortunatly the fight can't happen.
As a matter of fact, I think he was dead before Jones began his pro career.
It would be competitive though, at LEAST as competitive as the 1898 Louisville Colonels against the 2007 Boston Red Sox

You're truly in need of seeing these fighters. I remember you picked Joe Calzaghe to beat Billy Conn at Light-Heavyweight. The same sound reasoning for picking Jones over Charles too --- his birth certificate. Fighter A was born later than fighter B, so it doesn't matter that Jones fought shockingly light competition throughout large parts of his career, it doesn't matter that Charles beat a slew of world-class & some all-time great fighters, none of that matters.

I guess we musta fo'got Jones was born later. End of story. Now tell us all what Calvin Brock or Wlad Klitschko would have done to a poor, ancient lamb to the slaughter like, say, Sonny Liston.

i dont think boxing shares the same crossing over era's as most sports its onlywhen you go back 100 or so years when i think the big problems start

Marlin wrote:

Ezzard wrote:The real fight to watch for Roy's shortcomings is Jones-Johnson.

Jones was physically gifted (and enhanced, of course) and he had a style that confounded many fighters. When he faced Johnson and he couldn't have it all his own way, as he was used to, the man folded...

If Jones dominated the first few rounds (and I said IF) then we know Charles will come right back at him. When Charles has his good rounds we can't say the same for Roy with any conviction.

Jones on his best night beat Toney. Charles on his best night...well he has so many great scalps who knows what actually was his best night.

Before I get accused of not properly appreciating Roy or of being biased towards older fighters let it be known that I can see Roy's ability. But picking him to beat a proven great like Charles doesn't add up when you look at the evidence. It's just a leap of blind faith.

Charles didn't look to good at the end of his career either. We are talking Roy in his prime, Johnson is irrelevant. Or should I mention some of Ezzards last fights?

Jones was rarely tested with his level of opposition.

I'm not using the fight to run down Jones speed, power or stamina. I'm not even doubting his chin in these fights (but your chin doesn't really get worse you just take more shots than you used to). I'm using it to question Jones' mentality in a fight in which he had to rally and couldn't. This has no bearing whatsoever on him being peak or not. It gives us a peak at his mental strength.

So it's not irrelevant in this sense.

Charles' late career is far worse than Jones because (a) he'd fought more and was more worn out and (b) he made far less money than Jones who really doesn't have to fight any more.

dr_devious wrote:Jones was the best fighter of the 90s imo. He didnt fight in the greatest of eras but its fair to say hes pretty high up in the p4p ratings.
Charles has one of the best resumes in boxing history, miles better than Jones. Charles is prob top 10 p4p in history.

The best fighter of the 90s was the great Pernell Whitaker....Beat better class of opposition than Jones and was DOMINANT almost all decade. Jones, LACKED the competitive matches that Whitaker had in his resume...We cannot go with talent alone. Jones was one of the most talented fighters ever, but he did not faced THE VERY BEST OF HIS TIME.

I got Jones around in the 74th position all time p4p.

At light heavy, he probably is at #10

At middleweight, he is in my view after the 15th position...He is probably one of the best top 20 middleweights p4p in history, probably or maybe.

At super middleweight, I ranked him at #2

Charles was the best of the 175 pound class. Pound per pound he could be in the top 10 easily. I rated him at #13 pound per pound and probably #12 at heavyweight.

"The best fighter of the 90s was the great Pernell Whitaker....Beat better class of opposition than Jones and was DOMINANT almost all decade. Jones, LACKED the competitive matches that Whitaker had in his resume...We cannot go with talent alone. Jones was one of the most talented fighters ever, but he did not faced THE VERY BEST OF HIS TIME." - ElmerSalsa

Agreed. I'm 23 & while there have been some great ones, (& personally, I consider Jones to be among them) Whitaker is the best fighter of my lifetime.

elmersalsa wrote:

dr_devious wrote:Jones was the best fighter of the 90s imo. He didnt fight in the greatest of eras but its fair to say hes pretty high up in the p4p ratings.
Charles has one of the best resumes in boxing history, miles better than Jones. Charles is prob top 10 p4p in history.

The best fighter of the 90s was the great Pernell Whitaker....Beat better class of opposition than Jones and was DOMINANT almost all decade. Jones, LACKED the competitive matches that Whitaker had in his resume...We cannot go with talent alone. Jones was one of the most talented fighters ever, but he did not faced THE VERY BEST OF HIS TIME.

He beat Hopkins and Toney, who were the next best of his era. Who did he duck that were better than Hopkins and Toney, and who could have beaten him?

dr_devious wrote:Jones was the best fighter of the 90s imo.

I'd give that title to Whitaker.

Jones was obviously one of the most talented fighters in boxing history. But what were we really looking at, when comparing it to what Charles did? Sure, Jones looked great beating Toney and Ruiz. But Charles in his career was beating Archie Moore and Joe Walcott. Not really comparable. A slipping Jones couldn't handle Glen Johnson's pressure, a slipping Charles was able to have two great fights with Rocky Marciano.

There's more to boxing than just natural ability, and Charles was hardly lacking in that department.