BoxRec

granberry wrote:collins,

Why don't you and your low mentality stooges pollute boxrec with your non boxing posts?

He is correct; I'm still waiting for your answer.

Now isn't what you just posted a non boxing post?

Why don't you instead tell us more about those mad fouls?

Are you helping pollute boxrec with your non boxing post?

granberry wrote:collins and his stooge borinken stink up boxrec with their low mentality, non boxing, juvenile "posts."

Great work, buzz.

Another non boxing post. Please stop polluting boxrec.

Just Kidding.

Gomez and Ortiz were great fighters and they should be remembered for that. To imply that Gomez foul his way to a victory against Zarate is not accurate in my opinion. Gomez really hurt Zarate and it was a clear win by Gomez. Please do not attempt to tarnish that victory or Gomez's legacy in the sport. You claim that Gomez was fouling and yet you provide no evidence of that. I still like to hear what fouls are you taking about and this is a legitimate question.

Comic book? Surely not?

granberry wrote:Can you imagine what this so-called 'boxing' site looks like to anyone who skims it for the first time and sees it consists of spiteful, feminine ad hominem attacks, post after post after post,

all encouraged and added to by so-called 'moderator' buzz.

Boxrec is collins' personal toilet at this point.

So-called boxrec 'moderator' buzz is the enabler of

collins and his stooges as they clutter boxrec with their non boxing "posts."

No need for abuse my friend.
This is my first & final warning

Collins2000 wrote:

granberry wrote:Ortiz was the complete package.

He was also physically stronger than almost anyone his weight.

What a disappointment his fight with Joe Brown was. Not Ortiz' fault.

Why not answer Borinken's question?

borinken has a long TRACK RECORD as a stooge of yours.

Granberry
Cool down or I'll show you the door

granberry wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

granberry wrote:Ortiz was the complete package.

He was also physically stronger than almost anyone his weight.

What a disappointment his fight with Joe Brown was. Not Ortiz' fault.

Why not answer Borinken's question?

borinken has a long TRACK RECORD as a stooge of yours.

Proud to be Collins2000 friend

Borinken25 wrote:

granberry wrote:

Collins2000 wrote: Why not answer Borinken's question?

borinken has a long TRACK RECORD as a stooge of yours.

Proud to be Collins2000 friend

The feeling is mutual

I'm amazed that any boxing fan could look at a superb fighter machine like Gomez and dismiss him as merely a fouling cheat.

Gomez was a foul fighter.

When he fought in Puerto Rico the refs let him get away with anything.

See the Zarate fight.

I knew the trainer of Leonardo Cruz, who fought Gomez in a title fight in San Juan.

They told me how Gomez hit low as hard as he could and repeatedly in that fight with the ref doing nothing.

Borinken,

I enjoyed watching Gomez at 122. What a superb fighting machine.

He was unlucky to run into an even greater fight than himself when he went to 126.

I can't understand how any real boxing wouldn't enjoy watching Bazooka in action.

Collins2000 wrote:Borinken,

I enjoyed watching Gomez at 122. What a superb fighting machine.

He was unlucky to run into an even greater fight than himself when he went to 126.

I can't understand how any real boxing wouldn't enjoy watching Bazooka in action.

Gomez was a great fighter and I did enjoyed many of his fights. Gomez vs Pintor should be a classic in my opinion. Now I can’t wait for granberry to post how dirty Gomez was in that fight too.

granberry keeps referring to Gomez as a dirty fighter and yet offers no evidence but his word. I don’t understand why he is evading my question.

For granberry, what are those fouls that you are talking about in Gomez vs Zarate fight? I see Gomez connecting a left hook and Zarate was doing the chicken dance. I don’t understand why you are trying to diminish his win. Is ok if you don’t like Gomez but to try to degrade him is not fair in my opinion.

One must first familiarize oneself with the rules of boxing and also what is NOT allowed in the sport of boxing.

Some of the most basic fouls are hitting low, butting, thumbing, lacing, hitting with other than the knuckle part of the glove, etc.

granberry wrote:One must first familiarize oneself with the rules of boxing and also what is NOT allowed in the sport of boxing.

Some of the most basic fouls are hitting low, butting, thumbing, lacing, hitting with other than the knuckle part of the glove, etc.

That still does not answer the question. Stop evading the question. What fouls are you talking about in the Gomez vs Zarate fight, not fouls in general? You gave me a list and yet don’t answer the question. Which of those fouls that you just mention or any other fouls did you see Gomez do on his fight vs Zarate? Did Gomez hit him low? Did Gomez head butt him? Did Gomez hit him with a left hook without telling him?

You are assuming that you are the only one that has read the rules of boxing.

"Fight rules. A boxer may not hit below the belt, in the back of the head, or strike an opponent who is down, even to one knee. Such actions are called fouls. Other fouls include kicking, tripping, wrestling, excessive holding, hitting an opponent's eye with the thumb of the glove, hitting with the forearm or the inside of the glove, butting with the head, or using the elbows. A boxer who commits a foul is warned by the referee and may lose points. Too many fouls may result in disqualification."

If you need more information please use this link:
http://www.owingsmillsboxingclub.com/boxing.htm

http://www.wbarecords.info/manual/rules.htm

The only fouls I recall in particular during Gomez-Zarate were when, in the second or third round, Gomez grabbed Zarate behind the neck and pushed/pulled him to the canvas. And, when Gomez hit Zarate when Zarate was on the canvas after the last knockdown.

I haven't seen the film in a long time, and I don't remember whether Gomez - or Zarate (for that matter) - committed any other fouls.

But I don't think there can be any argument that those weren't fouls. Sure, Zarate was finished when he went down the last time, but it was still a foul to hit him when he was down.

Foreman did the same thing to Jose King Roman.

I am not saying that Gomez was a "dirty fighter" overall. I don't remember him having that reputation. But he did foul Zarate at least twice.

Wilfredo Gómez and Carlos Ortiz were excellent fighters, but there are others who would be "the greatest", as Sixto Escobar, José Chegui Torres or Wilfredo Benítez, and I'm only designating at random

Benny Leonard hit Jack Britton when Britton was down and the referee

immediately awarded the fight to Britton on a foul.

granberry wrote:Benny Leonard hit Jack Britton when Britton was down and the referee

immediately awarded the fight to Britton on a foul.

There were TRUE SPORTSMANSHIP those days. Come the Ali era and everything was screwed up. I agree with you Granberry.

elmersalsa wrote:

granberry wrote:Benny Leonard hit Jack Britton when Britton was down and the referee

immediately awarded the fight to Britton on a foul.

There were TRUE SPORTSMANSHIP those days. Come the Ali era and everything was screwed up. I agree with you Granberry.

Well, the rules have changed between now and then. In those days, if a fighter fouled, there was little the referee could do to enforce the rules other than disqualify the offender.

Now, a referee has the option of taking points from the offender, and giving the fouled fighter a chance to recover. That wasn't an option in the 1920s.

Do you think the result in Britton-Leonard was appreciated by the fans?

elmersalsa wrote:Who was the greatest Puerto Rican fighter of all-time in your view.

Many say the great Wilfredo Gomez...Others say the great Carlos Ortiz

give a detailed information.

I think any such discussion would have to include Wilfred Benitez.

I gotta go with Gomez. In terms of raw talent Benitez was better than both. Ortiz is one of the most underrated champions not just in Latin America, in boxing history. I'm not trying to downplay Carlos's great career, as I have more ties to him. The promoter I work for worked with him back in the days, and we share a name (as well as nationality with both.) You can't argue with Gomez's stats tho. 34 straight KO's, Titles in three divisions. Somebody mentioned how important his win over Carlos Zarate was, but let's not forget Lupe Pintor either. A lot of boxing historians rate Zarate as the top bantam of all times, and many other greats (Olivares, Zamora) didn't make it the distance with him.

As a Puerto Rican fan, the main arguement I can make for Gomez is that he's probably the only Puerto Rican fighter to be considered the best pound for pound fighter during his prime.

Martin Sosa Cameron wrote:Wilfredo Gómez and Carlos Ortiz were excellent fighters, but there are others who would be "the greatest", as Sixto Escobar, José Chegui Torres or Wilfredo Benítez, and I'm only designating at random

As I mentioned earlier, I'm rather partial to Benitez. Unfortunately Wilfred's disdain for training and later for the sport in general (and possibly his father) hindered him from achieving even more.

Torres was good, but I wouldn't put him in that league. Same can be said for Escalera, Espada, De Jesus, and even Trinidad. Good to great. Maybe Trinidad can elevate to that level but I can't rate DeJesus or Escalera as high as the Wilfredo's or Ortiz. To me the top Puerto Rican fighters in no particular order are Gomez, Benitez, Escobar, Trinidad and Ortiz. De Jesus might've had a chance to crack that list without his problems.

There are two other fighters that are worthy of mention here. Wilfredo Vasquez quietly put together an amazing career, and current champion Ivan Calderon is a dominant champion who's fought the best opposition the 105 and 108 divisions can offer.

VoiceOnTV wrote:A lot of boxing historians rate Zarate as the top bantam of all times, and many other greats (Olivares, Zamora) didn't make it the distance with him.

I wasn't aware Olivares fought Zarate.