BoxRec

dr_devious wrote:Iran Barkley had Tommy Hearns' number

Good one.

granberry wrote:Tiger Jones had Ray Robinson's number.

As if Jones would have ever been even competitive with Robinson if Robinson wasn't coming off his two year retirement.

I Feel Fine wrote:

granberry wrote:Tiger Jones had Ray Robinson's number.

As if Jones would have ever been even competitive with Robinson if Robinson wasn't coming off his two year retirement.

Have you ever seen the fight, halfwit?

Robinson never gaved Tiger Jones a rematch.

Once later Robinson was introduced in the ring before a Tiger Jones fight and when he went by Jones' corner

Tiger Jones said to Robinson,

"You're a brave man to get into the same ring with me."

Jones was clearly too strong for Robinson.

And he stood and traded with Robinson---and won the exchanges.

...boxbuzzy is one tricky fellow. in his list he slips in the suggestion that i think ezzard had archie's number, implying that archie was the superior fighter. he knows damn well that i consider archie moore a great fighter..but ezzard was even greater, which is why he was able to beat the old mongoose.

re: sugar ray and tiger jones. i remember that fight well, and granberry is right that jones waded right into robinson and beat him...he kept the sugar man from boxing at long range and outscored him toe to toe. of course this was not the pre-retirement robinson, but he still went on to fight his way back to the title. i think he would have won a rematch, but he avoided doing so, so the win for jones stands....and it is always possible that ralph did have his number....but he never got the chance to find out.

in a way, jersey joe walcott had joe louis's number to a degree. most think he should have got the decision in their first fight, and on the way he dropped louis twice and went fifteen rounds. in the second fight he dropped louis again and was making him look bad until he got kayoed.

Robinson's timing and coordination were off, he looked tired throughout the fight... all signs of a ring rusted fighter. Jones was a journeyman who got lucky against a rusted Robinson, I believe Robinson would have beaten him had he not been coming off his two and a half year retirement... Robinson was hardly someone who had never fought a strong, aggressive fighter before. Unless you're saying that Joe Louis could have never beaten Ezzard Charles...

Though, I agree, Robinson should have sought a rematch with Jones.

Tell us more about how Billy Conn broke his hand in a fight with his brother granberry... it was his father-in-law, you great boxing historian you.

I didn't see your post jaclem, I disagree about Robinson-Jones, but I agree about Charles-Moore.

IFEEL FINE - not sure with what you disagree with but i think it may be the wrong impression i might have given about tiger jones and robinson. to clarify...i definitely agree that it was not robinson near his later best and i do not think that jones would ever beat robinson if they had had a rematch. i think sugar ray took him too soon and too lightly.....but i think we still have to give jones credit for what he DID accomplish. i saw him fight a lot....he was on tv almost as much as milton berle and he gave everybody hell even when he lost...the gavilan fight is a good example.

as for moore and charles.....yoour posts always show good clear thinking so of course you were not taken in by boxbuzz's sneakiness.

Jaclem wrote:IFEEL FINE - not sure with what you disagree with but i think it may be the wrong impression i might have given about tiger jones and robinson. to clarify...i definitely agree that it was not robinson near his later best and i do not think that jones would ever beat robinson if they had had a rematch. i think sugar ray took him too soon and too lightly.....but i think we still have to give jones credit for what he DID accomplish. i saw him fight a lot....he was on tv almost as much as milton berle and he gave everybody hell even when he lost...the gavilan fight is a good example.

as for moore and charles.....yoour posts always show good clear thinking so of course you were not taken in by boxbuzz's sneakiness.

My first post was in reference to granberry's post, not your's. You and I seem to agree that Robinson should have taken a rematch, and that he likely would have won it. I guess I just wanted to emphasize that I felt that Robinson was recovering from his inactivity, and that it wasn't simply a result of their style matchup. I probably just misread your post when I said I disagreed.

Ezzard Charles had Archie Moore's, Joey Maxim's and Jimmy Bivins' number...he beat them any time he wanted it to.

Archie Moore had Joey Maxim's number
Archie had Harold Johnson's number even though Harold won one of 5 fights between them

Freddie Miller ALWAYS kicked Petey Sarron's ass, then Sarron whupped his behind the last two times in 6 fights.

Jorge Lujan always had Roberto Rubaldino's number, but Roberto avenged the outcome at the end

Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles always kicked Curtis Cokes' ass (2 times)

Pipino Cuevas always kicked Angel Espada's behind ( 3 times )

elmersalsa wrote: Archie had Harold Johnson's number even though Harold won one of 5 fights between them

Clueless Elmer puts his foot in his mouth again as he regurgitates his tired talking points from the clueless.

The film of the Johnson-Moore title fight is easily available.

In their title fight Harold Johnson jabbed Moore to death and knocked Moore FLAT ON HIS FACE with a right hand in the 10th round.

Moore's (and Doc Kearn's) referee, Ruby Goldstein, gave Moore further counts once Moore was already up.

That stopped Johnson from getting off another punch at Moore before the round ended. In a title fight the rules were that the referee brushed off a downed fighter's glove when he got up and then the fight resumed immediately.

Goldstein's action there was a godsend for Moore--and cut Johnson's throat.

Moore was hopelessly behind on points when he knocked Johnson down in the 14th round. Here Goldstein did not give Johnson extra counts when he got up and Goldstein did not make Moore go to a neutral corner. Moore stood right next to Johnson and started hitting him as soon as he got up. Goldstein then stopped the fight.

Moore kept his title by the skin of his teeth, with LOTS of help from Goldstein.

This is one of Moore's so-called "wins" over Johnson.

After that Moore refused to fight Johnson again, even though Johnson was by far the number one contender.

This is the same Goldstein who stood by and let Paret get hit with over twenty punches while Paret's entire upper body was out of the ring between the second and third ropes.

This is the same Goldstein who stood by and did nothing in a fight that was not for any title when Joe Louis was sitting unconscious on the middle rope with his chin resting on his chest and his arms dangling by his sides--and let Marciano rear back and hit Louis with a final right hand that knocked him out of the ring.

Everything Goldstein did in the Moore-Johnson title fight hurt Johnson and saved Moore's neck.

These boxing sites are havens for the clueless like Elmer to regurgitate tired talking points from the clueless media and hope to appear 'impressive' to his fellow clueless.

Agreed about the terrible Paret situation, although it should be noted that he was a fighter known for foxing (Playing possum). Even so, Goldstein had enough evidence to step in.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Agreed about the terrible Paret situation, although it should be noted that he was a fighter known for foxing (Playing possum). Even so, Goldstein had enough evidence to step in.

Goldstein was a faulty physical specimen. As a fighter he had a glass chin.

As a referee he tired badly in the later rounds---just when the referee is most needed as the fighters tire and run down and are more vulnerable.

Notice how Goldstein stopped the second Robinson-Turpin fight to save Robinson's neck.

If the situation had been reversed he never would have stopped the fight and taken away Robinson's title.

Turpin was stupid to risk his title in the US as he did there.

Robinson was exhausted and had a terrible cut that would have caused the fight to be stopped shortly if Goldstein hadn't stepped in.

Robinson was so desperate that he even tried to grab the back of Turpin's neck on the ropes with his left hand and hit Turpin with his right hand.

A blatant foul.

And of course Goldstein stood right there and did nothing.

Goldstein was garbage as a referee and was the cause of Paret's death.

Archie Moore should be eternally grateful to Goldstein for saving his title against Harold Johnson.

Foreman had Frazier's number.

Liston had Patterson's number.

I think Liston-Patterson and Foreman/Frazier even more so are better examples than some of those listed.

A fighter had another fighter's number when either:

1. The two fighters are roughly even, yet the fights weren't competitive when the two fought head-to-head. (Foreman-Frazier would be an example.)
or
2. A lesser fighter beats a better fighter atleast twice. (Vernon Forrest-Shane Mosley is a good example.)

Napoles beating Cokes isn't an example of one fighter having the others number. Napoles was simply better.
This and some of the other examples give earlier were simply examples of the better fighter winning. This is usually the case and isn't really an example of one fighter having the other fighter's number.

Ambling Alp wrote:I think Liston-Patterson and Foreman/Frazier even more so are better examples than some of those listed.

A fighter had another fighter's number when either:

1. The two fighters are roughly even, yet the fights weren't competitive when the two fought head-to-head. (Foreman-Frazier would be an example.)
or
2. A lesser fighter beats a better fighter atleast twice. (Vernon Forrest-Shane Mosley is a good example.)

Napoles beating Cokes isn't an example of one fighter having the others number. Napoles was simply better.
This and some of the other examples give earlier were simply examples of the better fighter winning. This is usually the case and isn't really an example of one fighter having the other fighter's number.

Foreman-Frazier is a very good example.

Although Frazier was not the fighter he had been.

Cokes was actually a very good fighter. His style was all wrong for Napoles.

Just as Napoles' style was all wrong against Monzon.

If any fighter ever had another fighter's number,

it was Jimmy Young against Ali.

Young exploited every flaw and limitation in Ali's style, and it went on unmercifully for FIFTEEN ROUNDS. Forty Five minutes of fighting.

Ali was destroyed psychologically after that fight.

I saw him sitting at the press table after the fight with his face resting against his open right hand, like a woman trying to console herself.

When Young came in and sat next to Ali, Ali would not look at him. He kept his head turned away.

Young turned his chair sideways so he was facing straight at Ali.

Finally Ali turned his head and looked at Young.

Young leaned his head forward toward Ali's face and laughed in Ali's face.

Young was saying, "We know what happened, don't we."

Ali turned back to his original position and rested his face in his hand for the rest of the press conference.

The press conference was hilarious.

Dundee abandoned his own fighter, saying, "He never looked so bad."

When Ali won Dundee took credit, but for this fight Dundee was claiming it was all Ali's fault and that he (Dundee) had no part in it.

Then Ferdie Pacheco, the other non muslim in Ali's corner,

said with a big smile, "Jimmy Young was fighting a legend, and he did very, very well."

At that point one of the muslims with Ali nudged Pacheco, and he stopped talking.

Oleg Maskaev had Hasim Rahman's number.

Yes, I agree granberry. A 34 year old, 230 pound Young coming off a Joe Frazier trilogy would have certainly beaten a 27 year old Ali. He, after all, had Ali's number.

Vargas seemed to have Quartey's. I think that is the only legitimate loss Quartey has had, other than Wright.

I Feel Fine wrote:Yes, I agree granberry. A 34 year old, 230 pound Young coming off a Joe Frazier trilogy would have certainly beaten a 27 year old Ali. He, after all, had Ali's number.

pundit wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Yes, I agree granberry. A 34 year old, 230 pound Young coming off a Joe Frazier trilogy would have certainly beaten a 27 year old Ali. He, after all, had Ali's number.

Members of the Religion of Ali hate Jimmy Young with a passion,

because Young exposed and exploited all the flaws and limitations in Ali's style--

and laughed in Ali's face while he did that.

Like Ezzard Charles against Joe Louis?

granberry wrote:

pundit wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Yes, I agree granberry. A 34 year old, 230 pound Young coming off a Joe Frazier trilogy would have certainly beaten a 27 year old Ali. He, after all, had Ali's number.

Members of the Religion of Ali hate Jimmy Young with a passion,

because Young exposed and exploited all the flaws and limitations in Ali's style--

and laughed in Ali's face while he did that.

granberry... What would have happened between Jimmy Young in his Prime vs Ali in his prime. Might as well get your opinion stated for the record so the "shills" can have their say as well.

Yes,Ray Robinson had difficulty with middleweights with big upper bodies and pressing attacks(LaMotta,Turpin)when Ray was in his prime. Even Henry Brimm who fought Ray to a draw had that kind of physique. After Ray's layoff guys like Fullmer and Jones roughed up Sugar pretty good. Ray's legs couldn't help him out any more. As far as Jones,If Ray would have lost to him again in a rematch his career might have been over,at least for a big fight.

I'm also convinced that Young fought the post retirement Ali better than any other opponent. You could see that Ali was frustrated missing a lot of punches. If Ali lost to a big man like Norton or even Frazier who tried to go through him,Ali ,I think ,thought he "looked better" even though he lost.
With Young though, Ali was outsmarted. Ali always thought he was the smarter fighter in the ring.

You are aware, dagos, that Ali was 230 pounds, the heaviest of his career to that stage. A lot of guys would have looked good against that version of Ali.

Robinson in rematches knocked LaMotta, Turpin and Fullmer out. And those guys were better than Jones.

Its interesting listening to the selective commentary that some use when discussing these fights.

dagosd2000 wrote:Yes,Ray Robinson had difficulty with middleweights with big upper bodies and pressing attacks(LaMotta,Turpin)when Ray was in his prime. Even Henry Brimm who fought Ray to a draw had that kind of physique. After Ray's layoff guys like Fullmer and Jones roughed up Sugar pretty good. Ray's legs couldn't help him out any more. As far as Jones,If Ray would have lost to him again in a rematch his career might have been over,at least for a big fight.

I'm also convinced that Young fought the post retirement Ali better than any other opponent. You could see that Ali was frustrated missing a lot of punches. If Ali lost to a big man like Norton or even Frazier who tried to go through him,Ali ,I think ,thought he "looked better" even though he lost.
With Young though, Ali was outsmarted. Ali always thought he was the smarter fighter in the ring.

Young was an Ali sparring partner years earlier than their title fight.

Ali could not hit Young then.

Young had a complete defense. He had a counter punch for any punch thrown at him.

He had a great chin.

He was an expert infighter and had the best body attack of his time; he wore down Ali, Foreman and Lyle (twice) with it.

He had FAR better concentration than anyone he fought. He constantly caught Ali napping with right hand leads.

Young's movement from the waist drove Ali nuts. He had no way to deal with it and missed the same punches over and over for 15 rounds.

The pity is that Young only had four fights at his best ( Ali, Foreman and 2 with Lyle).

Then his Philadelphi trainer, Bob Brown, became too ill to get him up in the morning to run. Brown died of kidney failure and that was the end of Young. The scum from his own neighborhood took over his "training" once Brown was out of the picture and Young was unrecognizable as the fighter he had been.

Ron Lyle said Young was the most gifted fighter he had fought.

Immediately after their fight Ali said of Young, "He reminded me of me when I was young."

All the former champions I knew liked Young and said, "He was GOOD. Whatever happened to him?"