BoxRec

How about Billy Graham - Kid Gavilan.
In 1951 Ive read Gavilan got the nod over Billy in a BAD dec.
Ive never seen this fight .
Maybe someone here can give us some iinsight on it.
Another one was Tyrone Everett - Alfredo Escalera.
Same deal, Ive only heard about it.
Anyone see it?

Ali fought so poorly, he should have been TKO'd...err, I mean DQ'd. I think? Which is which again? I bet Al Bernstein is competent enough to tell me.

Recently, I have been promoted to the rank of, "Ali Shill", & while I am not an Ali fan, not nearly as impressed by some, my heinous crime of objectivity has been greeted with this decorative honour, so I figure --- in for a penny, in for a pound. Gran, look away now, this isn't going to be to your liking...

Ali-Jones - Fair call. Cling to it Gran, cling as hard as you can.
Ali-Norton II - Close. Could legitimately be scored either way. No robbery.
Ali-Frazier II - Not that close? Not sure why some mention this - 8-4 Ali on my card, though he held terribly.
Ali-Lyle - Didn't like the stoppage. Something don't smell right about this one.
Ali-Young - Robbery. Young won.
Ali-Norton III - Terrible. Norton won hands down. Ali publicly stated so.
Ali-Shavers - Haven't seen it, so I can't comment.

As you can see, this is the work of a dedicated Ali shill. A man devoted to utter fandom, much like the masses. With you all the way, Gran

I think the Patterson-Ellis and Louis-Walcot fights are a good example of
this.

I saw the Ali v Young fight AGES ago. I would like to re-watch it. I remember going away from it thinking Ali had lost, as I really was not familar with Young at that time.

Recently, I have been promoted to the rank of, "Ali Shill", & while I am not an Ali fan, not nearly as impressed by some, my heinous crime of objectivity has been greeted with this decorative honour, so I figure --- in for a penny, in for a pound. Gran, look away now, this isn't going to be to your liking...

Ali-Jones - Fair call. Cling to it Gran, cling as hard as you can.
Ali-Norton II - Close. Could legitimately be scored either way. No robbery.
Ali-Frazier II - Not that close? Not sure why some mention this - 8-4 Ali on my card, though he held terribly.
Ali-Lyle - Didn't like the stoppage. Something don't smell right about this one.
Ali-Young - Robbery. Young won.
Ali-Norton III - Terrible. Norton won hands down. Ali publicly stated so.
Ali-Shavers - Haven't seen it, so I can't comment.

As you can see, this is the work of a dedicated Ali shill. A man devoted to utter fandom, much like the masses. With you all the way, Gran

Agree with most of what you said here. Shavers-Ali though was a split decision (Ali won two of three score cards) but I personally believe Earnie was the better man that night, he wasn't really ever hurt, but he had Ali hurt throughout the fight, and only Ali's last 10 second flurries at the end of each round seemed to keep him fresh on the judges minds...much like Sugar Ray Leonard would do against Marvin Hagler.

Its one of those fights that could have went either way, much like your assumption that Ali-Norton 2 was the same.

All of this stuff has been beaten to death, so its not worth going over again. But I do want to say three things. As dempseyfire touched on, we have to be careful of distinguishing between "close fight" and "robbery." If you had De La Hoya beating Trinidad by one round, as I did, you can call it a bad decision, but not a robbery. The other thing I would add is that this stuff is not exclusive to Ali, though going by this forum you would think so, and fighters like Larry Holmes got as many gifts as Ali did. Lastly, in regards to Ali's holding behind the head, that one is just as bad in the way Ali is so singled out here and in other places. Name another Heavyweight champion who lost points for holding behind the head or holding excessively? It almost never happens. Just look at Ruiz. I saw Norris-Curry for the first time the other week, and Norris pushed down behind Curry's neck in almost every round. He never lost a point. But this was somehow only something that Ali got away with? Am I the only person who has ever seen a Lennox Lewis fight?

Oh, and looking through the thread, no one is going to tell me that Lyle was a bad stoppage. And I again find it odd that we hear these complaints about Ali all the time, but never about guys like Holmes. If you want to see a bad stoppage watch Holmes-Snipes.

edit

Though Ali was more expressive with his face when he did it.

Its funny, when Ruiz does it, its 'boring, lazy, cowardice' and all that.

When Ali did it, its called 'smart, psyching the opponent, tying the man up'

You're actually suggesting that Ali held anywhere near as much as Ruiz did? Ali would throw a five or six punch combinations and then hold, and that was only in some of his fights. Ruiz would throw a couple of jabs or at best a right hand and hold... and hold on for a lot longer than Ali would... and this was in all of Ruiz's fights, at least the ones I've seen.

Jesus..

I wasnt suggesting that. What I was saying is that a SIMILAR tactic with different condemnations - praises.

Robinson wrote:Though Ali was more expressive with his face when he did it.

Its funny, when Ruiz does it, its 'boring, lazy, cowardice' and all that.

When Ali did it, its called 'smart, psyching the opponent, tying the man up'

And when Ali gets clobbered, it's "he had a great chin."

Not "He had no defense and was a human punching bag."

granberry wrote:

Robinson wrote:Though Ali was more expressive with his face when he did it.

Its funny, when Ruiz does it, its 'boring, lazy, cowardice' and all that.

When Ali did it, its called 'smart, psyching the opponent, tying the man up'

And when Ali gets clobbered, it's "he had a great chin."

Not "He had no defense and was a human punching bag."

the same ali who barely got hit by liston?

p4p1 wrote:

granberry wrote:

Robinson wrote:Though Ali was more expressive with his face when he did it.

Its funny, when Ruiz does it, its 'boring, lazy, cowardice' and all that.

When Ali did it, its called 'smart, psyching the opponent, tying the man up'

And when Ali gets clobbered, it's "he had a great chin."

Not "He had no defense and was a human punching bag."

the same ali who barely got hit by liston?

The same Ali who was staggered by Doug Jones' right hand 15 seconds into the first round

and who was knocked down by 185-pound Henry Cooper's left hook two rounds before he fought Liston?

You are swallowing the Religion of Ali crap.

No fighter gets beaten up by Doug Jones and Henry Cooper and then suddenly shows up with a perfect defense against Liston.

The first and the second Ali-Liston fights were regarded as fakes at the time they took place.

The second fight was supposed to clear up the stink from the first fight.

Instead it stunk even worse.

I am sure you have a poster of Ali standing over Liston in the second fake fight on the wall above you as you type.

granberry wrote:

p4p1 wrote:

granberry wrote: And when Ali gets clobbered, it's "he had a great chin."

Not "He had no defense and was a human punching bag."

the same ali who barely got hit by liston?

The same Ali who was staggered by Doug Jones' right hand 15 seconds into the first round

and who was knocked down by 185-pound Henry Cooper's left hook two rounds before he fought Liston?

You are swallowing the Religion of Ali crap.

No fighter gets beaten up by Doug Jones and Henry Cooper and then suddenly shows up with a perfect defense against Liston.

The first and the second Ali-Liston fights were regarded as fakes at the time they took place.

The second fight was supposed to clear up the stink from the first fight.

Instead it stunk even worse.

I am sure you have a poster of Ali standing over Liston in the second fake fight on the wall above you as you type.

i dont think there was anything wrong with the first fight but will agree somehting wasnt right with the second one the punch was fast but i do not believe it was that hard

Ali was knocked down but always got up

p4p1 wrote:Ali was knocked down but always got up

Unlike Joe Louis. (no disclaimer here.)

I actually disagree with you p4p. Liston did, in fact, hit Ali. He hit Ali more than he's given credit for. He hit Ali with a couple of left hooks that would have put Patterson in a coma. If he intended to throw the fight to the young Clay, who wasn't at the time known to have a particularly good chin, I kind of find it hard to believe that he'd have hit Clay that hard. He also did a good job of landing the jab, he landed more of them than he gets credit for too. The first fight itself was closer than some make it out to be, I don't think Clay was winning by more than a couple of rounds.

Liston showed in the second fight that he couldn't act. If he didn't know how to act there, how was he able to look so convincing the first time?

p4p1 wrote: Ali was knocked down but always got up

Yeah. He got up after being knocked down by 185-pound Henry Cooper

and lurched toward his corner and was grabbed by his cornermen

and lowered down onto his stool by them

and needed extra time between rounds.

LOL

Yep, he got a total of six extra seconds. Scandalous.

I Feel Fine wrote:Yep, he got a total of six extra seconds. Scandalous.

More like several minutes.

I think Ali was just the greatest. Go Ali!

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Yep, he got a total of six extra seconds. Scandalous.

More like several minutes.

Try watching the video rather than going back to your Joe Louis talking points.

Many say Liston was so slow and never landed a single effective punch on Ali in both fights, that its almost become the mindset that Liston was just a slow, plodding, bruiser. Its almost like how people judge Jim Jeffries on his performance against Jack Johnson. Its unfair.

Watch the first fight and you will see Liston land quite a lot of shots to Ali's body. Ali's defense wasn't "impregnable" as many would think, just because he was the fastest heavyweight doesnt really translate that Muhammad Ali was a great fighter, tactician or defensive wizard...it just means you can get away with a mistake or two, but only that can last for so long.

Dont believe so, take a look at the Ali who fought Folley and others in his "prime", and then watch him fight Frazier in 1971...the speed can only take you so far...and you can blame it all you want to on him being in exile, but whether he was or not, he still wouldnt have maintained that kind of speed, he was slowing down...and guess what, it happens, hes just as human as anyone else, we all get old and weary.

I - generally - agree. All I would add is that Ali had more qualities than just speed, and he wasn't exactly a dumb fighter. And I of course maintain that he would have won the first fight without the layoff.

Why do the opposing viewpoints have to be so extreme? You have IFF dissing Joe Louis and Granberry and others claiming Ali sucked.

Ali DID hold often in the 1970s for many fights, but one has to counter that with his 1960s prime, in which his fights had often very few clinches whatsoever. When he was in top shape (Frazier I and III, Norton II) he clinched but it was not John Ruiz-esque (I would argue Frazier II was pretty damn bad however) and he used his top-flight footspeed.

That fact that as an older fighter, in his 30s, he was able to beat the likes of Norton, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Shavers, Quarry etc. is a remarkable achievement. He did it through incredible conditioning, a top flight chin, unorthodox but effective boxing skills (a top flight jab and a pretty under-rated counter puncher) and with a couple of fights (Young, Norton III) some help for the judges. But even take those two fights away and his resume is still nothing short of amazing.

As for granberry, the Doug Jones fight is right on Youtube. Please post your round by round. I can guarantee everyone the film and what he would describe would be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!!

I'm being facetious dempsey... except for the knock down thing. I'm just trying to annoy granberry. I've said in the past what I think of Louis, I think Louis is a top 10 P4P all time fighter. I wonder if granberry has Ali in his top 10...

I Feel Fine wrote:

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Yep, he got a total of six extra seconds. Scandalous.

More like several minutes.

Try watching the video rather than going back to your Joe Louis talking points.

Religion of Ali believers know a video is God's honest truth.

There is no way a video can be cut and pasted, according the Ali worshippers.

LOL.

Uh oh, there's the conspiracy again.

Pray tell granberry, do you know of any film that shows Ali receiving a four hour break or whatever it was he supposedly needed?