BoxRec

I remember ages back I did a thread about this, in a hypothetical sense, of what would have occured had Ali and Johansson fought in an actual bout around this time to the time Johansson retired. Ironically, despite it only being a two round sparring session, there was many who said Ali would have won it had there been a real fight.

I dont see the 4-0 Ali doing so against Johansson. Ali had problems with that Polish amateur in the Olympics, and would later be knocked down by Sonny Banks, and had yet to face Cooper and other more tougher contenders. Had it been a 10-12 round fight, I see Johansson's right doing alot of damage and often. Johansson was the type of guy who would pounce on the opprotunity of someone else's mistakes or when he knew they were injured.

In the words of Eddie Machen, if you let Johansson get the first blow in, you're pretty much finished. Patterson took this advice to heart in the rematch and rubber match, as he failed to do so in the first bout, thinking Johansson was just another hyped up European who got lucky against Machen and would be no problem.

Had Johansson caught Ali (then Clay) flush, Johansson would have came at him from all directions until he had him down again and again, until it would have ended in a TKO or a straight up KO. Ali was just too green, and he was nowhere near the legend that he would become. It would have been like a child fighting a grown man, once Johansson would have gotten to him.

Expug wrote:There are those who may disagree but I think you can take a tremendous amateur and put him in sparring with a real good pro and he might do real well....for a couple rounds.
Two differint mind sets .
After only a few pro fights, Clay is still thinking about getting a real fast start.
Ingo a seasoned pro is used to takin his time , look for an opening , shake out a little rust , get some rounds in.
I dont think too much should be made out of this (if it even went down like this) or really most sparring sessions.It aint a real fight.
If someone said Clay beat the shit out of him in the gym for ten rounds, then wed have something to talk about.

I think this post sums it up perfectly.

Johansson is a non person today.

He doesn't exist.

WHY?

Because he doesn't fit into the Ken Burns agenda.

Wrong pigmentation.

He has nothing to offer in the way of the promoting of the massive politically correct media agenda in force today.

Johansson was VERY good when he knocked out Eddie Machen in ONE ROUND (a total shocker) and then knocked out heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson in three rounds with the exact same punch.

Against Patterson the first time Johannson was terrific.

He was fast, light on his feet, anticipated every forward move by Patterson, and frustrated everything Patterson tried.
He kept Patterson occupied with his constant left jab.

He was waiting and waiting for the right opportunity for his right hand.

Patterson would crouch--and then come up from the crouch.

Johansson watched and watched to take advantage of that.

In the third round Patterson, in front of Johansson, lowered himself into the crouch, Johansson reached out with his left hand to Patterson's shoulder as a locater, and then, just as Patterson started coming up slightly, let his right hand go.

Johansson threw his right hand very easily, deceptively, with his full power into it. He had very strong legs and got them completely into the punch.

In the Machen fight, Machen was catapulted straight back onto his back for each of the first two knockdowns.

The last knockdown on the ropes that was allowed by the hometown referee should never have been allowed to go that far. Machen was lucky he escaped without any brain damage.

In the first knockdown in the first Patterson-Johansson fight, Patterson was catapulted backwards onto his back exactly the way Machen had been. Johansson was a little sloppy following up and it is interesting to see Patterson's fighting spirit as he fought back, even though he didn't know where he was.

I have a film of that fight with Don Dunphy's radio commentary laid over the film. It is very interesting to hear how superior Dunphy was in comparison to the insanity that passes for boxing 'commentary' since.

Dunphy very calmly and effortlessly gave the number of each knockdown as he described the action. "That's the fifth knockdown," etc.

For that fight Johansson was a terrific fighter. Very cool, light on his feet, completely frustrating his opponent, and perfectly using his opponent's style to land his payoff punch.

Johansson's right hand was very deceptive and quickly thrown. It would have been dangerous to any fighter.

In the second Patterson-Johansson fight, Patterson changed his style to punching with his HEAVIEST punches every moment, in an effort to keep Johansson harassed and off balance every moment and not in a position to get set and have his wits about him. In this second fight Patterson's main punch was a left hook to the solar plexus, which he was very accurate with. He followed it with a powerful short chopping right hand to the head, which he missed for the first rounds. But he kept the same thing going continually.

Patterson's first punch of the fight was a hard left hook, which he missed badly and fell off balance from. But it served notice to Johansson from the very start that he was in big danger and under duress. Johansson tried to follow up when Patterson went off balance after missing that first punch but he was too far away and not quick enough.

After a few rounds not only the left to the solar plexus, but the heavy right hand started to land for Patterson ( at least partially). That led to the end of the fight.

Johansson was not in the physical condition he showed up in for the first fight, and Patterson's fight plan won the fight for him. That was only fight Patterson looked like a top level fighter since his KOing of Archie Moore with a lighting left hook from the twilight zone (a punch nobody can see) to win the vacant title and his first title defense, where he looked terrific against Hurricane Jackson.

After his first title defense against Hurricane Jackson, Patterson's performances went way downhill as his manager Cus D'Amato refused to let him fight the top challengers (Machen and Folley) and Patterson shifted from his earlier lightning fast hands style to standing around and punching less, like a typical heavyweight.

For his fights after he lost the title to Liston, Patterson was unrecognizable as the fighter he had been in his prime, even though he knocked Henry Cooper cold in four rounds and beat Chuvalo, Bonavena, etc.

Talk about a fighter with a short prime--Johansson's lasted for two fights---Machen and the first Patterson fight. But he was a very dangerous heavyweight in those two fights, and an excellent ring general.

I read somewhere that Johansson said he was looking past his second fight with Patterson to an eventual defense against Liston, and that that cost him.

The important thing to remember about Johansson is that HE NEVER EXISTED.

He is of NO USE to the Ken Burns-Thomas Hauser media politically correct sales pitch for Ali and Jack Johnson by clueless media gasbags who don't have the slightest interest in boxing but use it for their larger politically correct agenda.

As far as I know Johansson is still alive and living in Florida from the last I heard.

When he does die, the Bert Sugars and Thomas Hausers will rush in to make sure that he is categorized as a nobody in the current politically correct sales pitch that drapes itself over boxing.

Homocide Henry- "I remember ages back I did a thread about this, in a hypothetical sense, of what would have occured had Ali and Johansson fought in an actual bout around this time to the time Johansson retired. Ironically, despite it only being a two round sparring session, there was many who said Ali would have won it had there been a real fight."

I looked up Homocides previous thread. ("Hypothetical Matchup: Johansson-Pre-Liston Cassius Clay". It's on p.65 of Homocide's previous posts.

Exactly one person said they thought Clay would win. One. Even that person's reasoning was mostly because he thought that Johannson was out of shape after his first fight with Patterson.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:There are still people out there who take something from this, seriously. People who believe a 4-0 Clay would've defeated not just Johansson, but Patterson as well. In 1961!

Both of those guys would have KO'd Clay at that time. Badly.

Again who are these people? Who are all these people that say that Ali would have beaten Johansson so early in his career?
They certainly would be in a small minority.

It seems to me that the anti-Ali people are picking a arguement that is just not there.
People that have the gall to consider Ali the best heavyweight ever are portrayed as overzealous and not realistic.

How about the people that are obsessed with fights when he wasn't close to his prime and ignore 1964-1967?

----Foreman and Shavers had weak right hands, after all. They didn't hit harder than Ingo. It's all a hoax, Clay could never out do Johannson.----

Not to mention the vicious right hand that Cleveland Williams had, but as granny would say, Williams was collecting social security prior to his fight with Ali...but people who know the sport know that the "punch" is the last thing to leave a person and some people will hit hard until they die...Willimas was one of those! But speaking of right hands lets not forget about the right hand that Archie Moore had...or the right hand that Chuvalo had, or that of Bonavena and Frazier...or Foster, who certainly hit as hard, but probably harder than Jones ever dreamed. Ron Lyle had a big right...better than either that Granny mentioned and less not forget that Ali did win two out of three fights against Norton's right hand.

No...FACT is...it took a hell of a lot more than just a damn good right to beat Ali. Actually, Ali has a resume absolutely loaded with wins against fighters who had dynamite in their right hand, but listen to the excuses that grans will try to make!

"There are still people out there who take something from this, seriously. People who believe a 4-0 Clay would've defeated not just Johansson, but Patterson as well. In 1961!

Both of those guys would have KO'd Clay at that time. Badly.

Again who are these people? Who are all these people that say that Ali would have beaten Johansson so early in his career?
They certainly would be in a small minority.

It seems to me that the anti-Ali people are picking a arguement that is just not there." - Alp

Well, if you notice my post, I wasn't referring to anyone on this board. I said, "people out there" & that is exactly what I meant. I have encountered people on forums sufficiently enamoured with Ali as to pick him to beat Johansson (& Patterson) in 1961. That, by the way, isn't a shot at Ali. That is a shot at the people suckered into the Ali mythology to the point where they would essentially ponder whether an Ali fresh out of primary school would find a way to defeat Mike Tyson.

Again - Not aimed at people who think Ali was a great fighter, because I'm one of them (as is any competent boxing judge). It's a shot at people who know nothing outside of Ali.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"There are still people out there who take something from this, seriously. People who believe a 4-0 Clay would've defeated not just Johansson, but Patterson as well. In 1961!

Both of those guys would have KO'd Clay at that time. Badly.

Again who are these people? Who are all these people that say that Ali would have beaten Johansson so early in his career?
They certainly would be in a small minority.

It seems to me that the anti-Ali people are picking a arguement that is just not there." - Alp

Well, if you notice my post, I wasn't referring to anyone on this board. I said, "people out there" & that is exactly what I meant. I have encountered people on forums sufficiently enamoured with Ali as to pick him to beat Johansson (& Patterson) in 1961. That, by the way, isn't a shot at Ali. That is a shot at the people suckered into the Ali mythology to the point where they would essentially ponder whether an Ali fresh out of primary school would find a way to defeat Mike Tyson.

Again - Not aimed at people who think Ali was a great fighter, because I'm one of them (as is any competent boxing judge). It's a shot at people who know nothing outside of Ali.

Surely not bona fide boxing fans?

There is a fellow who posts on here regularly who claims to have spent many years 'ringside' yet claims Marvin Hagler was nothing more than a plodder who happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Collins2000 wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"There are still people out there who take something from this, seriously. People who believe a 4-0 Clay would've defeated not just Johansson, but Patterson as well. In 1961!

Both of those guys would have KO'd Clay at that time. Badly.

Again who are these people? Who are all these people that say that Ali would have beaten Johansson so early in his career?
They certainly would be in a small minority.

It seems to me that the anti-Ali people are picking a arguement that is just not there." - Alp

Well, if you notice my post, I wasn't referring to anyone on this board. I said, "people out there" & that is exactly what I meant. I have encountered people on forums sufficiently enamoured with Ali as to pick him to beat Johansson (& Patterson) in 1961. That, by the way, isn't a shot at Ali. That is a shot at the people suckered into the Ali mythology to the point where they would essentially ponder whether an Ali fresh out of primary school would find a way to defeat Mike Tyson.

Again - Not aimed at people who think Ali was a great fighter, because I'm one of them (as is any competent boxing judge). It's a shot at people who know nothing outside of Ali.

Surely not bona fide boxing fans?

There is a fellow who posts on here regularly who claims to have spent many years 'ringside' yet claims Marvin Hagler was nothing more than a plodder who happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Let's not drag ringsiders wisdom into this. It's complex enough already.

Actually, I would say that Foreman's right hand is more destructive than Johansen's, BUT Ali (at the time of the sparring) would have been NO MTACH for Johansson...

LET'S FACE FACTS PEOPLE:

Johansson was a world-beater and no: 1 contedner for the world heavyweight title... Ali was merely a promising talent coming up who's experienced a few professional rounds... But Ali's speed, and quickhands had NOT been developed yet... The simple fact is that Johansson would have CRUSHED Ali...

I have seen the sparring session in film. It's in one of the documentaries on Ali and to me.... it was just a sparring session in which nothing much happened.... but it made good PR to build up a fighter. Every promoter is always looking for an angle like that to get some ink in the paper and more customers at the gate.

The only exhibitions or sparring sessions (and lets face it most exhibitions are just glorified sparring sessions after all) that I ever read about or seen, that held water in my minds eye, was Louis-Valentino and The Kentcky Rosebud-George Dixon [or was it Kid Chocolate?]...Louis's "win" over Valentino by kayo in the 8th round was one of the major turning points in Louis's retirement that made him decide to come back officially...Louis would later fight guys like Rex Layne and Roland LaStarza in exhibitions.

Mike Tyson's exhibition bout against T-Rex Sanders was thought to be a catalyst for a come back, as it was supposed to have been the start of a world exhibition tour (all four rounders) that rumor had it would not only get Tyson back into shape and keep his finances out of the muck it was in, but to build up for a future championship fight...unfortunately (or fortunately) Tyson came to his senses and abandoned the comeback tour, though he easily knocked around his former sparring partner.

Exhibition/sparring session or not...let's face it, in 1961, even Rocky Marciano who been retired some five years, could have gotten back into shape [mind you a Marciano-Johansson fight was in the works in this same time period] and give or take 10-12 rounds scheduled...The Rock would have beaten Muhammad Ali at that point and time.

"Surely not bona fide boxing fans?

There is a fellow who posts on here regularly who claims to have spent many years 'ringside' yet claims Marvin Hagler was nothing more than a plodder who happened to be in the right place at the right time." - Collins

Collins, you'd be surprised. More than once I've witnessed a reasonably knowledgeable forum-goer & otherwise rational poster support this line of thinking.

Such is the power of Ali. Truly.

Crease wrote:Actually, I would say that Foreman's right hand is more destructive than Johansen's, BUT Ali (at the time of the sparring) would have been NO MTACH for Johansson...

LET'S FACE FACTS PEOPLE:

Johansson was a world-beater and no: 1 contedner for the world heavyweight title... Ali was merely a promising talent coming up who's experienced a few professional rounds... But Ali's speed, and quickhands had NOT been developed yet... The simple fact is that Johansson would have CRUSHED Ali...

Yes, thank you, I already said that one page ago that Johannson would have beaten Clay in a real fight at that stage. Some people here are a little too quick on the trigger. My point in bringing up Foreman is that granberry doesn't think that Ali could have ever beaten Johannson.

That said, Johannson; a world beater? I doubt anyone would have said that of him even at his best. And Clay's hands were indeed quite fast going back to the amateurs. Speed isn't something that you typically gain in your 20's, it'll be something you've had in your amateur days. Look at Leonard. If you've seen Clay's early fights you know he had fast hands.

I feel like every time I post something about Ali on this forum that I have to leave a disclaimer or some inquisitor will question me about possible heretical beliefs that I might have about Ali. So, fine, here it is: [disclaimer: I do not believe that Clay would have beaten Johannson in an official ten round fight from 60-62, and possibly not even in '63. I am not currently a member of the Communist party, nor have I ever been a practitioner of witchcraft...]

As for this "power of Ali" stuff, I could say the same of Marciano and Louis and Chavez and all these other cultural icons that have come out of boxing. I could just list the number of times I've heard people say that Marciano was the greatest fighter in boxing history and that he could have beaten every other Heavyweight champion. You listen to casual boxing fans at your own peril.

And Clay's hands were indeed quite fast going back to the amateurs. Speed isn't something that you typically gain in your 20's, it'll be something you've had in your amateur days. Look at Leonard. If you've seen Clay's early fights you know he had fast hands.

that be true...but even as an amateur Clay was able to get caught, hell he had problems with that amateur champion from Poland because he was a southpaw and Clay won it narrowly...while he was fast, his technique is what was the problem, even at 4-0 as a professional he still had alot to learn yet.

Yes, I know that. I was only talking about his speed early on. I didn't mention anything else. Obviously he was still developing. And, yes, I have seen his fight for the Gold Medal.

I Feel Fine wrote:
My point in bringing up Foreman is that granberry doesn't think that Ali could have ever beaten Johannson.

Show me where I said that, halfwit.

Your character is so low that you apparently feel you are free to make up whatever falsehoods fit your feeble agenda.

You are the lowest example of those residing in the internet's sewers.

You imply that Ali would lose to Johannson because Johannson hits harder than the Jones who fought a 21 year old Ali or the Young who fought a 34 year old Ali. I don't know which one of those claims makes you more of a boxing illiterate, but I know that it adds up into one big pile of shit that deserves to be challenged.

That whole other thread is about your f-cking agenda, trying to present Johannson as some sort of white victim. The guy is one of only three boxers in history to win the Sports Illustrated athlete of the year award, one of only four boxers in history to win the AP athlete of the year award, he was inducted into the Hall of Fame and he'll be remembered for all time by boxing fans for his trilogy with Patterson... who the f-ck is ignoring Ingemar Johannson?

I Feel Fine wrote:You imply that Ali would lose to Johannson because Johannson hits harder than the Jones who fought a 21 year old Ali or the Young who fought a 34 year old Ali. I don't know which one of those claims makes you more of a boxing illiterate, but I know that it adds up into one big pile of shit that deserves to be challenged.

That whole other thread is about your f-cking agenda, trying to present Johannson as some sort of white victim. The guy is one of only three boxers in history to win the Sports Illustrated athlete of the year award, one of only four boxers in history to win the AP athlete of the year award, he was inducted into the Hall of Fame and he'll be remembered for all time by boxing fans for his trilogy with Patterson... who the f-ck is ignoring Ingemar Johannson?

ifeelfine is a mentally deranged boxrec poster.