BoxRec

..bless you, buzzy..bless you.....

Pryor was the greatest of the 140 pound class...period!!!

"...Damn, I just realized granny got me monolougin' again. ....I bet he just said those things to yank my chain.....and he got away with it!. Would someone just knuckle his head for me?" - BoxBuzz

Not me. Last time I tried to pull that trick, Gran knocked me silly. How bad was I hurt? Bad. To add to the humiliation, he raised his arms above his head, did a little foot-shuffle right in front of me, & closed the show with the most extravagant bolo punch you've ever seen.

Goodnight, Goodnight, Irene. Never try to noogie Granberry.

elmersalsa wrote:Pryor was the greatest of the 140 pound class...period!!!

Oscar would have eaten him at 140.

*GI whistles dixie as he casts his fishing rod casually into the stream*

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:How could anyone call Pryor a fraud? The guy was undefeated until he came back from a long, drug-induced 2 year layoff a shell of what he'd been. He has two wins over one of the great lightweight champions. Definetely one of the top 140 lbers of all time.

I guess it depends on how you look at a few things.
-How big of a deal was it to beat Arguello? It was a big deal. Anyone who has seen those fights have to know that it would take a great fighter to have beaten Arguello like Pryor did. Against almost any other Jr Welter ever, Arguello wins if he fought that well.

-How big of a deal was it to beat Cervantes? Not as big of a deal if he had beaten Cervantes at his best, but Cervantes was still pretty good when Pryor beat him.

-The whole idea that Leonard, Hearns etc. ducked him? That one is hard to swallow. If Pryor really wanted to fight these guys, he could have moved up to welterweight.

-How impressive was Pryor's title reign? At first glance, you see that he had beaten Cervantes for the title, had 10 defenses, including two against Arguello.
However, if you take a hard look at who he was fighting (besides Arguello), it's not that impressive: Top contenders like Gene Hatcher, Johnny Bumphus, and Jo Kipauni never got shots against Pryor, though 3 guys that weren't in the Top 10 did.
Pryor could also have fought Saoul Mamby,Leroy Haley,Bruce Curry, or Billy Costello, all whom won the WBC title. He never did.

Pryor probably would have beaten these guys, but the bottom line is that he didn't. therefore he shouldn't be considered a legend.

I can see where someone might think that Pryor was slightly overrated. Still, it seems that he did enough and looked impressive enough that he should be considered a great fighter.

My question for boxbuzz,Jaclem or anyone else that isn't sold on Pryor is this: Just how good do you think he was?

-Does he deserve to be in the International Boxing Hall of Fame?
-Who are some other fighters that you would rank as about the same as Pryor?

How big a deal was it that Leonard beat a Benitez severely hampered by a cut for the majority of their only encounter?

If we can call into question Pryor-Arguello I, we can more than do the same for Leonard-Benitez. As far as Arguello being naturally smaller, Pryor won their first encounter. How'd Leonard do first-up against the smaller (& ageing) Duran?

& for the record, I don't for one minute believe Leonard ducked Pryor. Could be a different story with Hearns, however...

I am not questioning the Pryor's win over Arguello. I am giving him credit for it. Read what I said.
I'm not not going to get into Leonard and Duran and Benitez. I have answered these comments previously. I don't want to turn this into a thread about Leonard, it's about Pryor. If you feel the need to start another thread and bash Leonard, I will answer these comments once again there.
For once, lets not twist a thread into Leonard bashing.

I don't think jaclem or myself really feel we "bash" Pryor,

We did have front row seats to a local spectacle that seemed to reveal differing aspects to us than it did to a national or international audience. And so we are compelled to comment. Or at least these day I'm still compelled to do so.

Remember we knew him when he was coming up the ranks bearing witness as his managers micro managed and padded that record...so his quick splash and sudden demise had a different context for us than for many of you.

The quick splash was mildly surprising to me and perhaps to jaclem as well. His sudden demise was very expected.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:I agree that the division wasn't "loaded" during the early 1980's, but clearly there were better opponents than most of the fighters that Pryor beat. (such as Mamby,Haley,Curry,Costello,Hatcher,Bumphus, and Kimpuani.)
Again, if Pryor really wanted a fight with Leonard, he could have moved up to welterweight. He would have got a title shot sooner or later. I have never heard of anyone else being accused of ducking a fighter who won't move up to his weight level. (For the love of God, I hope this doesn't turn into yet another Leonard-Bashing thread.)

I thought I had heard people saying that Hearns supposedly ducked Pryor, but maybe I am mistaken.

I pretty much agree with demspeyfires rating of Pryor. He was certainly better than Hernandez and Tszu, and much, much better than Hatton.
I'm not sure about Locche and Cervantes (they are hard to rate as well), and I would rate him behind Benitez,Canzoneri, and Ross. I think he would have given any Jr Welterweight a very tough fight.

Boxbuzz- I wonder if one reason that you don't have much regard for Pryor is that you a rating him on what he could have been, not what he actaully did. Yes, he could have had a better career, but how good was his career?
Just where do you rate him? I remember you saying previously that you don't think he was as good as Cervantes and Locche. Do you consider him better than Tyszu,Hernandez etc?
Does he even belong in the International boxing Hall of Fame?

As you know Alp, in order to keep my integrity intact I have to say yes to your question on "Hall of Fame" status. He is rather well known.

Here are some facts....what "truth" do they lead one toward?


"The first fairly talented champion to exploit the power of a planned and padded "0" Madison Avenue style...(Ok maybe Lamar Clark...but I did say "fairly talented)

*perfect predatory timing of an aging GREAT champion based on his "0".

*perfect timing of another aging GREAT (and smaller) champion based on his "0" Probably the ONLY real risk he ever took so I won't call this predatory. And to his credit these fights were a war...and celebrated and played and seen perhaps more than any other non HW fight in hsitory. (Hall of Fame stuff).

*calling out every major name in sight while avoiding every really serious challenger that posed a threat who was actually willing to engage at the time. Had he accomplished some of that house cleaing he might have actually got the fights he claimed he wanted to "jump" to.

*The things that destroyed him (drugs) are the same things that "turbo boosted" him in his "prime". the conspiracy of that "little bottle"? No not at all there was nothing in it other than water...BUT it had been blessed by a voodoo priestess.....and we all know what that can do!

There is more.....but I'm turning granberry here....and I feel have to go do 20 hail Mary's.

I'll quote Jaclem here.....regarding any fight with Duran...

The biggest fight there would have been would have been with the five guys it would have taken to drag him into the ring with Duran.

Well, buzz, I think we are finally getting somewhere now.
To sum it up, you think that Pryor fought weak competition. He called out other great fighters but wouldn't actually fight them.

You think his win over Arguello was tainted and overrated anyway.

There may be some truth to what you are saying.
You may be right that the Arguello fights may be braodcast too often. It actaully would be nice to see some of Pryor's other fights broadcast once in a while.
One thing that we really don't know is why Pryor didn't fight someone like Duran, Leonard Hearns. We can only speculate who duck whom if indeed anyone ducked anyone. However, it seems to me at the very least, Pryor wasn't eager to fight them. He had to have known that he could move up to welterweight, beat a couple of contenders and he would get a title shot.

I never knew what to make of the bottle thing in regard to the first Arguello fight. It does certainly look fishy. However, it also seems doubtful that anything would give you that much energy that fast.
It also bears noting that Pryor also stopped Arguello in the rematch.

It's also true that Arguello wasn't a Jr welterweight for long before their fight. However, Arguello did look good in his Jr Welterweight fight before fighting Pryor, and in two fights in between the Pryor fights. He was 5'10 and didn't seem to have trouble carrying the weight. Perhaps most importantly, he fought exceptionally well against Pryor.

I pretty much agree with you that overall his competition wasn't that great. I do give him some credit for beating Cervantes. Cervantes was 34 and past his best. Still, he still seemed like he had a lot left and even looked good after Pryor beat him. For someone to KO Cervantes in 4 rounds even at that stage of Cervantes career is pretty impressive.

As for the Hall of Fame thing, I think you know what I meant.
Wss Pryor's good enough as a fighter to deserve to be in the International Boxing Hall of Fame? I think the answer has to be yes.

Pryor did have a padded record but once he got up to the top of course he wanted the fights. I mean losing to Leonard/Duran/Hearns etc (and he would have lost to all of them) was worth more to him than beating 5-6 challengers at 140. And once he lost he could have gone back down to 140 and defended his title.

I don't think those guys avoided him. They just had bigger fish to fry.

The win over Arguello is good but tainted (and alexis was a smaller man).

Tyszu would have beaten him IMO.

Pryor's win wasn't tainted in the slightest. There is no substance you can ingest via a liquid which would suddenly give you a big edge over your opponent, perhaps it was sugar water . . .big flippin' deal.

dempseyfire wrote:Pryor's win wasn't tainted in the slightest. There is no substance you can ingest via a liquid which would suddenly give you a big edge over your opponent, perhaps it was sugar water . . .big flippin' deal.

dempsey the science of your statement is not accurate.

just as there are things that can kill yo within seconds

there are also things that can give you a very quick boost

I thought he was a genius in his field, of course his very best work was in his collaborations with Wilder...man, those two were top notch!!

BoxBuzz wrote:Pryor is someone I really hoped would turn into all that he could be, I was able to keep a close eye on his career due to my proximity to most of his fights. Early on he did show that potential, but he never became all that he could be or even all that people thought he had become.

And your "waste" comment is somewhat poignant.

Forgive my intrusion but what else was he supposed to accomplish? he destroyed Arguello who was 2-1 favored and erased all doubt in the rematch. He did let his talent go to waste after that but did it really matter? There was no one else to fight unless you want to bring up Johnny Bumphus.

I dont like the way Leonard ducked out of fighting him. Any other fighter would have accepted a fight with Pryor. Leonard wouldnt take a fighter who was smaller than him and yet Arguello was man enough to step up another weight class to meet Pryor. Seriously, if Leonard doesnt have the balls to take on a little guy like Pryor then how could he ever stand up to a man like Terry Norris?

Oops, I mentioned the first fight with Duran. I guess that's what qualifies as, "Bashing Leonard."

Elton John wrote:I dont like the way Leonard ducked out of fighting him. Any other fighter would have accepted a fight with Pryor. Leonard wouldnt take a fighter who was smaller than him and yet Arguello was man enough to step up another weight class to meet Pryor. Seriously, if Leonard doesnt have the balls to take on a little guy like Pryor then how could he ever stand up to a man like Terry Norris?

Ambling Alp wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:How could anyone call Pryor a fraud? The guy was undefeated until he came back from a long, drug-induced 2 year layoff a shell of what he'd been. He has two wins over one of the great lightweight champions. Definetely one of the top 140 lbers of all time.

I guess it depends on how you look at a few things.
-How big of a deal was it to beat Arguello? It was a big deal. Anyone who has seen those fights have to know that it would take a great fighter to have beaten Arguello like Pryor did. Against almost any other Jr Welter ever, Arguello wins if he fought that well.

-How big of a deal was it to beat Cervantes? Not as big of a deal if he had beaten Cervantes at his best, but Cervantes was still pretty good when Pryor beat him.

-The whole idea that Leonard, Hearns etc. ducked him? That one is hard to swallow. If Pryor really wanted to fight these guys, he could have moved up to welterweight.

-How impressive was Pryor's title reign? At first glance, you see that he had beaten Cervantes for the title, had 10 defenses, including two against Arguello.
However, if you take a hard look at who he was fighting (besides Arguello), it's not that impressive: Top contenders like Gene Hatcher, Johnny Bumphus, and Jo Kipauni never got shots against Pryor, though 3 guys that weren't in the Top 10 did.
Pryor could also have fought Saoul Mamby,Leroy Haley,Bruce Curry, or Billy Costello, all whom won the WBC title. He never did.

Pryor probably would have beaten these guys, but the bottom line is that he didn't. therefore he shouldn't be considered a legend.

I can see where someone might think that Pryor was slightly overrated. Still, it seems that he did enough and looked impressive enough that he should be considered a great fighter.

My question for boxbuzz,Jaclem or anyone else that isn't sold on Pryor is this: Just how good do you think he was?

-Does he deserve to be in the International Boxing Hall of Fame?
-Who are some other fighters that you would rank as about the same as Pryor?

That's pretty much my take on Pryor.

BoxBuzz wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Pryor's win wasn't tainted in the slightest. There is no substance you can ingest via a liquid which would suddenly give you a big edge over your opponent, perhaps it was sugar water . . .big flippin' deal.

dempsey the science of your statement is not accurate.

just as there are things that can kill yo within seconds

there are also things that can give you a very quick boost

Like what? Of course something like cocaine/amphetemine will get your wired but it won't suddenly give strength to a cardio-vascularly exhausted human being; the drained fighter would also be unable to fight properly given such a substance.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Pryor was the greatest of the 140 pound class...period!!!

Oscar would have eaten him at 140.

*GI whistles dixie as he casts his fishing rod casually into the stream*

Oscar who??? De La Renta?

Neither of the 3 Oscars (DeLahoya, De La Renta nor the Oscar itself) would sign for a meeting with Pryor.

elmersalsa wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Pryor was the greatest of the 140 pound class...period!!!

Oscar would have eaten him at 140.

*GI whistles dixie as he casts his fishing rod casually into the stream*

Oscar who??? De La Renta?

Neither of the 3 Oscars (DeLahoya, De La Renta nor the Oscar itself) would sign for a meeting with Pryor.

Hey, mighty fine catch. Well above the minimum limit. Now do Kostya Tszyu.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote: Oscar would have eaten him at 140.

*GI whistles dixie as he casts his fishing rod casually into the stream*

Oscar who??? De La Renta?

Neither of the 3 Oscars (DeLahoya, De La Renta nor the Oscar itself) would sign for a meeting with Pryor.

Hey, mighty fine catch. Well above the minimum limit. Now do Kostya Tszyu.

Now Kosta would have been a better fight, but still, NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR PRYOR.

I agree, Tszyu is better than De La Hoya. I think I'm better than De La Hoya too, Elmer. Agree?