Harold Johnson Vs Floyd Patterson 1957

[I Feel Fine]

"All 11 sportswriters at ringside scored for Patterson" according to boxrec. Not that that should matter, anyone who has seen the fight had Patterson winning, and it seems several here have seen the fight. Sorry dingleberry.

Imagine what an older Patterson would have done to Maxim.

[Jaclem]

..i missed the patterson/maxim fight live ..can't recall why...and have seen just the limited version. two rounds missing from an eight round fight makes it impossible to judge. patterson himself said as he fought more fighters he had more and more resoect for maxim...."the way he could feint you with a turn of his head." even if floyd did deserve that decsion i can't see how he would have prevailed over maxim in a ten round contest. maxim like to spend some time looking his opponent over.

as for floyd battering him and destroying him or whatever words one chooses to use...no way. maxim was on the downgrade by that time,but he had spent his career fighting some of the best heavies and light heavies and was stopped exactly once....one round by hatchetman sheppard...and three weeks later they got in the ring again and maxim won a decision.look at his record on box rec. look at the number lof rounds he fought against ezzard charles and archie moore alone...they won but they couldn't put him away.

if you can find his fight against irish bob murphy..it was on espn classic a while back...and you'll see the tough murphy land some bombs on him in the first two rounds...and then maxim gave him a boxing lesson and busted him up quite a bit in the process.

as i said..maxim was well on his way down and floyd was on his way up..which is probably why d'amato made the fight.

feel fine....hey, i saw maxim a lot....and i don't have to imagine what a younger maxim would have done with patterson no matter what the latter's age.

[I Feel Fine]

Well, again, the term "destroy" is subjective and means different things to different people. Obviously I don't mean "destroy" the way one would refer to Foreman-Frazier, or Liston-Patterson for that matter.

I don't think Maxim would have ever beaten Patterson, though I agree that this wasn't the best Maxim. It wasn't the best Patterson either, he had only had 13 pro fights.

It was interesting, I was watching a video on youtube of Patterson-Moore the other week. I had seen the fight before but what was interesting about the video was that it had commentary by Rocky Marciano, and Marciano was amazed by how much better Patterson had gotten, and the fight with Moore was of course a fight that took place about two and a half years after Floyd fought Maxim. Obviously it doesn't take Marciano to tell you that Floyd would get better with time, but I just thought it was an interesting commentary and I was reminded of it by this discussion.

That's another point, also, for granberry. Fighters tend to really step it up when they get their first title shot. I think you know what I'm referencing to.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think Patterson did pretty good against Maxim.

I find that fight an interesting meeting of styles. Maxim had that clever
30's-40s smart boxer skill set.

Where as Patterson with his what must have seemed revolutionary back tghen with his 'Wiley' peek a boo combination style. It just looked cool to watch them both.

This for me is one of those fights I wish I had in colour and HD :)

In a way I feel that Patterson made up his 'avoiding' Machen by beating him when he did after he lost the title.

Kym

Maxim had too much experience for Patterson at that point in Patterson's career.

The fight was limited to eight rounds because of Patterson's age.

The 8 round distance was a joke to a fighter like Maxim, who had fought Jersey Joe Walcott three times (winning one) without getting stopped, fought Ezzard Charles several times, including a 15-round decision loss for the heavyweight title, beaten Bob Satterfield and Jimmy Bivins,

and had just finished fighting three 15-round title fights with Archie Moore.

The novice 8-round distance was a snap for Maxim, who didn't do anything for one round against his young opponent, and then schooled Patterson in what it was like to deal with a hugely experienced pro who was physically strong, had a great chin, and very skilled.

Bad choice of an opponent by Cus D'Amato.
.
.
What D'Amoto did in keeping Patterson's two top contenders (Folley and Machen) from getting their chance at the title when they were in their primes, was a crime.

You have not seen the fight, you do not know anything of which you speak.

Ted Brenner was quoted as saying it was the worst decision of the decade. Maxim did nothing of note for much (some would say virtually all) of the bout. From the early get-go, Patterson's youth & remarkable speed dizzied Maxim.

Come clean, Gran. You have not seen the fight, have you?

[Robinson]

I have a few maxim fights in my library I am going to re-watch them later.

One thing I always noted about fighters like him and from his era, is
there activity.

I will say this, that would have to play a big factor in going into a fight.

I just loved Patterson's style especially after it progressed after this fight.

[Robert in NYC]

granberry:

your comments on Harold Johnson's height are very interesting. What other fighters have you met/known who were clearly shorter than their listed heights?
I've heard that Joe Frazier is really 5"9".

[Jaclem]

.. hadn't realized how close to the end of his career, and how far he was from his prime until i gave his record another look. after the patterson bout he fought only ten more times ,and won just two. in 1955 he lost to bobo olson, who even knocked him down (there was no way that would have happened when maxim was anywhere near his prime,) lost to willie pastrano, heavyweight eddie machen twice, again to olson. and closed out his career of 115 fights in 1958 with three losses.

[granberry]

granberry:

your comments on Harold Johnson's height are very interesting. What other fighters have you met/known who were clearly shorter than their listed heights?
I've heard that Joe Frazier is really 5"9".

I have stood next to Frazier many times. He is 5' 9" at the tallest.

Joe Louis (old) was surprisingly tall--6' 2 1/2---6' 3".

Bob Foster was very tall---6' 3".

Aaron Pryor was 5’4 ½--5’5”.

Roberto Duran was 5’6” at the tallest.

Ray Leonard was 5’ 7 ½”

Bennie Briscoe was 5' 8 1/2"
Georgie Benton the same.
Joey Giardello (old) 5' 8".
Billy Douglas 5’ 8”—9”
Eddie Gregory 5’ 8 ½”
Matt Franklin 5’ 9”

Dwight Braxton was sitting on a table near the ring the first time I saw him. I said to myself, “What a powerful looking heavyweight.” Then I was amazed when he stood up. He was 5’ 5 ½” to 5’ 6” at the tallest.

Rubin Carter (out of prison at time of the Ali-Young fight) was 5' 8"--very small boned.

Emile Griffith was 5' 7 1/2".
Denny Moyer was 5' 8”.

Jerry Martin was tall, maybe 6’ 1”.

Michael Spinks 6’ 3”

Wesley Mouzon fought as a lightweight until his career ended at age 19 because of an eye injury.
Years later when he trained Dwight Braxton he was 6’ 1”—6’ 2”. He told me he grew some after he stopped fighting.

Blinky Palermo (old) was 5’9” when I saw him. He knew nothing about (the techniques of) boxing, despite his years around it.

Tyrone Everett was 5’7”.

Jersey Joe Walcott (old) was about 5' 9" when I saw him. He had a massive head.

Jack Dempsey sat down the entire time I talked to him.

Holly Mims appeared tall to me, but I never saw him after I was a kid, less than full grown.

Randy Tex Cobb was big and wide across—6’2—6’ 3” He talked so much I tried to stay away from him.
Perfectly nice guy, but he had diarrhea of the mouth. I never knew another fighter who talked like that.

Ali was 6' 3"
The muslims from the main mosque in Chicago who hung around him were all 5 '5"--5' 6".

Jimmy Young was a half inch shorter than Ali.

Jimmy Ellis was 6' 3".

Larry Holmes was 6’5”. After a workout a few days before the Ali-Young fight we stood and talked for a long time as he was waiting for ride. He was very concerned about his weight—that he didn’t weigh enough—only about 200 pounds “as tall as I am.” He said he was trying eating different things but getting no results.. My comment was that that was no cause for concern, and that weight would come on naturally in the future, if it was meant to. He said he was there because he was hoping to get a fight on the card, and that he might fight Roy Williams, ‘the heavyweight champion of Pennsylvania.” Which he did. There was nothing to choose between them. Williams was stronger, hit harder.

Kid Williams (great bantamweight champion) was 5’ tall when I saw him (very old age).

Realize I never measured any of these people, just stood next to them.

I'm sure I'll remember a lot more after I post this.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Right. "Remember."

[telboy66]

I seem to remember that Archie Moore had the distinction of fighting both Harold Johnson & his father but I can't find his name on Archie's record unless he fought under a different name incidentally Joe Bugner did the same thing in as much as he fought both Joe & Marvis Frasier .how many others are there

[Ambling Alp]

Actually it was Jersey Joe Walcott who fought both Harold Johnson and his father. I'm sure there are other cases. I thought that someone had fought Brian London and his father as well.

[granberry]

I seem to remember that Archie Moore had the distinction of fighting both Harold Johnson & his father but I can't find his name on Archie's record.

You "seem to remember" ?

And you clutter up this site with what you "seem to remember" ?

Ginkgo biloba couldn't help you.

[Jaclem]

..very interesting, granberry. i do take exception to your height about aaron pryor, though. i'd say he was around 5'7" or 5'8".....but i didn't meadure him, of course....just going by eye contact...

i'm surprised at larry holmes being so tall. i saw him from ringside but never stood close to him. it would be informative, maybe, to crank up his fight with cooney, whom i recall as being listed as being a tall heavyweight, but not the actual height.

[BoxBuzz]

I seem to remember that Archie Moore had the distinction of fighting both Harold Johnson & his father but I can't find his name on Archie's record.

You "seem to remember" ?

And you clutter up this site with what you "seem to remember" ?

Ginkgo biloba couldn't help you.

Tellboy, meet our greeter granberry. It's granberry's job to make our new guests feel welcome.

[granberry]

..very interesting, granberry. i do take exception to your height about aaron pryor, though. i'd say he was around 5'7" or 5'8".....but i didn't meadure him, of course....just going by eye contact...

i'm surprised at larry holmes being so tall. i saw him from ringside but never stood close to him. it would be informative, maybe, to crank up his fight with cooney, whom i recall as being listed as being a tall heavyweight, but not the actual height.

Holmes was very tall, and gaunt, and nervous when I saw him.
During his workout he yelled continuously at the guy he was sparring with in a horrible, loud imitation of Ali gibberish. He yelled harder than he threw punches.
He sounded like he was totally nuts. He used a sharp jab, not much else.
I talked to the guy he sparred with afterwards. The guy was not very happy, said he was going back to college and not continuing with boxing.

When I talked to Holmes a little later outside the gym, he was perfectly sane. And voiced his concerns about his weight, his prospects for fights, etc.

Young and Holmes were talking naked in the dressing area when I got there. Apparently they knew each other. Holmes said to Young, "Give me a shot if you win." (Young was fighting Ali).

The only time I saw Pryor was at the Braxton-Saad fight #2.
Pryor was trying to talk to some newsmen who ignored him and then he walked away quickly. He was dressed up in a suit and looked like a schoolboy all dressed up. I did not stand directly next to him, and I remember he was hurt and walked away quickly. The news guys were sneering at him.

He was chunkily built, and his suit was tight, that might have made him look even wider (shorter).

I am sorry now I didn't say something encouraging to him, but he was gone like a flash.

Harold Johnson said that Pryor was the genuine goods, that he was a great physical specimen, that Pryor had power even when he didn't punch "correctly."
"If he punched correctly, he would really hurt someone," was Johnson's comment.

[BoxBuzz]

..very interesting, granberry. i do take exception to your height about aaron pryor, though. i'd say he was around 5'7" or 5'8".....but i didn't meadure him, of course....just going by eye contact...

i'm surprised at larry holmes being so tall. i saw him from ringside but never stood close to him. it would be informative, maybe, to crank up his fight with cooney, whom i recall as being listed as being a tall heavyweight, but not the actual height.

Holmes was very tall, and gaunt, and nervous when I saw him.
During his workout he yelled continuously at the guy he was sparring with in a horrible, loud imitation of Ali gibberish. He yelled harder than he threw punches.
He sounded like he was totally nuts. He used a sharp jab, not much else.
I talked to the guy he sparred with afterwards. The guy was not very happy, said he was going back to college and not continuing with boxing.

When I talked to Holmes a little later outside the gym, he was perfectly sane. And voiced his concerns about his weight, his prospects for fights, etc.

Young and Holmes were talking naked in the dressing area when I got there. Apparently they knew each other. Holmes said to Young, "Give me a shot if you win." (Young was fighting Ali).

The only time I saw Pryor was at the Braxton-Saad fight #2.
Pryor was trying to talk to some newsmen who ignored him and then he walked away quickly. He was dressed up in a suit and looked like a schoolboy all dressed up. I did not stand directly next to him, and I remember he was hurt and walked away quickly. The news guys were sneering at him.

He was chunkily built, and his suit was tight, that might have made him look even wider (shorter).

I am sorry now I didn't say something encouraging to him, but he was gone like a flash.

Harold Johnson said that Pryor was the genuine goods, that he was a great physical specimen, that Pryor had power even when he didn't punch "correctly."
"If he punched correctly, he would really hurt someone," was Johnson's comment.

Good to know that Harold and I agree that Aaron did not punch correctly. Whew if I would have said that without Harold backing me up, granberry would have been all over me.

[granberry]

..very interesting, granberry. i do take exception to your height about aaron pryor, though. i'd say he was around 5'7" or 5'8".....but i didn't meadure him, of course....just going by eye contact...

i'm surprised at larry holmes being so tall. i saw him from ringside but never stood close to him. it would be informative, maybe, to crank up his fight with cooney, whom i recall as being listed as being a tall heavyweight, but not the actual height.

Holmes was very tall, and gaunt, and nervous when I saw him.
During his workout he yelled continuously at the guy he was sparring with in a horrible, loud imitation of Ali gibberish. He yelled harder than he threw punches.
He sounded like he was totally nuts. He used a sharp jab, not much else.
I talked to the guy he sparred with afterwards. The guy was not very happy, said he was going back to college and not continuing with boxing.

When I talked to Holmes a little later outside the gym, he was perfectly sane. And voiced his concerns about his weight, his prospects for fights, etc.

Young and Holmes were talking naked in the dressing area when I got there. Apparently they knew each other. Holmes said to Young, "Give me a shot if you win." (Young was fighting Ali).

The only time I saw Pryor was at the Braxton-Saad fight #2.
Pryor was trying to talk to some newsmen who ignored him and then he walked away quickly. He was dressed up in a suit and looked like a schoolboy all dressed up. I did not stand directly next to him, and I remember he was hurt and walked away quickly. The news guys were sneering at him.

He was chunkily built, and his suit was tight, that might have made him look even wider (shorter).

I am sorry now I didn't say something encouraging to him, but he was gone like a flash.

Harold Johnson said that Pryor was the genuine goods, that he was a great physical specimen, that Pryor had power even when he didn't punch "correctly."
"If he punched correctly, he would really hurt someone," was Johnson's comment.

Good to know that Harold and I agree that Aaron did not punch correctly. Whew if I would have said that without Harold backing me up, granberry would have been all over me.

Nothing but gibberish to clutter the site with, huh ?

[granberry]

Jaclem,

Here is a comment on Pryor from a Detroit boxing guy I know:

I met him in detroit (pryor).. short. a great guy. very friendly. I grabbed him by the arm and it was pure concrete.

[Robinson]

Thanks for that Granberry

I have always thought that Frazier looked around 5'10 max. Yet you read 6' on his stats a bit. Not that I have ever met him, just from film etc.

How tall are you Granberry?.

One thing I have noted just going by MMA guys and boxers I have met is that sometimes people seem much bigger and taller when you meet them for the first time. Once you get to know them they 'become' smaller. I have only noted this warped perception on a few occasions.

Thanks again guys

kym