BoxRec

^^^thats exactly what I am meaning

In edither case Jefferies NEVER went 45 rounds so it does not matter.

A 167 lb Fitzsimmons as talented and interesting man that he was he is not a 220lb Tyson, 210lb Ali or a 190lb Louis.

How many rounds should we hypothesise ? Should we go beyond that and revert to pre Marques of Queensbury ??

Jefferies was atough SOB who did not fight that much, so it is hard to really judge how he would fare against other legends. But i sincerly find it hard to imagine him defeating some of the other guys on peoples lists, even if it is scheduled for 45 rounds.

The Fitz and Corbett example shows that Jefferies could be out boxed, but always had that punchers chance late in the fight. One could also argue that had Holmes-Cobb been 45 rounds then Cobb would have a good chance at stopping a tred Holmes late into the night.

In his huge 18 fight career he never did go 45 rounds, so it is still once again a big Un known that he could. I agree one does fight different when at the back of there mind they know that should there be no stoppage it is say 45 or infinite rounds, as opposed as say 12 or 15. But you could argue that he himself could also fall victim to the lengthy schedule of the fight should it get to those ubber champion rounds of 45. But only once was he in a 45 round scheduled fight and that was against Johnson and we all now how that went for him.

If glove blocking is such a great skill in modern boxing, how come no one practices this lost art ? I think Johnsons style worked well against contemporary fighters but I can not imagine his talents dominating with such ease over other champs thereafter/

Im not being argumentative I am genuinely interested in your thoughts,


kym

HomicideHenry wrote:Yeah, when it comes to Ali, you might as well place him on the level as Hercules, Atlas, John Henry, Paul Bunyan and other creatures of mythology. Am surprised the Ali fanatics haven't truly bought into the idea that Ali really could have defeated Superman like the DC comic special proposed back in the 1970's.

As opposed to Joe Louis, the muscles of democracy?

Louis fans, and Marciano fans, and Tyson fans, and apparently Holmes fans can be quite the hero worshipers.

Yes we can

observer1 wrote:

I place more emphasis on who-would-beat-who than accomplishment, but both are factors for me.

1. Ali
2. Tyson
3. Louis

Nearly matches mine

Ali
Tyson
LEWIS

All I am saying is, given the right circumstances and rules and equipment, anything is possible/plausible. For instance, when Dempsey fought Willard there was no neutral corner rule then, you could stand anywhere you wanted to and once a man's knees got off the canvas you could go after them again. Now if those rules were still applied in 'dream matches', imagine if you will, how more great Dempsey's chances would have been against someone more modern.

The longer a fight goes on, the greater Jeffries chances are. I never once stated that Jeffries wouldn't be outboxed, he proved he could be against Corbett for 22 rounds, Fitzsimmons for the majority of their 11 and 8 round bouts....but with the punishment he could take, his conditioning and power, I do think had a fight been scheduled 45 rounds or so, he would have eventually gotten to any champion in history.

Sure, this could apply to Chuvalo when he fought Ali, or when Holmes fought Cobb, as well, but all I was saying if the rules were different; Jeffries would have pulled it off.

And if there was neutral corner in one of those matches imagine a
Foreman, Marciano, Tyson, Patterson or Louis.

Perhaps when defining the dream matches we shall sit down at draft up some rules :P

pundit wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Yeah, when it comes to Ali, you might as well place him on the level as Hercules, Atlas, John Henry, Paul Bunyan and other creatures of mythology. Am surprised the Ali fanatics haven't truly bought into the idea that Ali really could have defeated Superman like the DC comic special proposed back in the 1970's.

What are you talking about, defeating superman -- Ali IS superman.

Yup, shit, Joe Louis only beat Max Schmeling, if Ali had existed back in those days he would've smashed the Nazis singlehandedly and saved the world.

Well Ali was alive during the war, but by the time it ended he was three. Cut him some slack. 8)

And if there was neutral corner in one of those matches imagine a
Foreman, Marciano, Tyson, Patterson or Louis.

Perhaps when defining the dream matches we shall sit down at draft up some rules

Most definately! When it all comes down to it, its the little intangibles that really do make up the fight. Like, for instance, if the Marciano-Walcott fight was a 12 rounder, Walcott more than likely would have won a decision. But since it was 15, Marciano pulled the kayo out of his ass in the 13th.

The size of the ring, gloves, amount of rounds; they do make a helluva difference.

Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Muhammad Ali

Ali
Louis
Holmes

Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Muhammad Ali

Martin Sosa Cameron took the road less traveled and actually ranked Louis and Marciano above Ali, much like LaMotta, Saddler, Frazier and some others have done in the past...I admire that

Frankly, popular choices as they are, but Marciano and Tyson have no business on that list. Ali, Louis are shoe-ins; and as the third guy Johnson, Holmes, Foreman, maybe Liston are plausible.

Louis
Dempsey
Johnson

(in no particular order)

I am curious as to why you feel say Liston is a shoe in over Tyson ?

I am curious and shall play devils advocate here.

Liston defended succesfully his title once, beat a much smaller man for it. Looked bad twice (lets say the rematch was real) against Ali.

Had some good trials on his way to the title, Williams, Machen.

After his Ali rematch he fought for 5 years never regaining status, he was once awarded. Sure lets jump up and down and shout he was a marked man, shunned or whatever. He never fought any upper guys after his Ali losses.

So what qualifies him over say a Tyson ?

I suppose the same can be said for a Johnson he probably did more befre he was a champion, than when he was. Controversy and ill treatment at the hands of his own Govt not withstanding, he was a some what in-active champion compared to his predecessor for example and he did not neccesarily give the best men a chance at his title. After he lost to Willard, he still fought for many years. Never regaining a top ranking or even being considered more than a was as opposed to a is.

I find these two men, more than others get a tremendous amount of credit, yet fans of other men and champions spend a great deal of time and effort having to explain and define there opinions.

Yet often people who advocate at Liston or Johnson just put a name in a top 3 list and leave it at that.

I personally have not really made a Top "X" list because I am still trying to watch as much as I can before I do this. I have favourites and who I like is not neccessarily who I think is best.

Thanks again

Kym

What's a, "shoe-in" Pundit?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:What's a, "shoe-in" Pundit?

http://www.itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/lang ... 00377.html

One thing I love about here are old expressions I have not heard in a while.

The Shill was a Shoe In.

pundit wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:What's a, "shoe-in" Pundit?

http://www.itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/lang ... 00377.html

The link expired, I think?

Shoe-in? Or shoo-in?

head-to-head

Ali
Liston
Tyson

p4p

Ali
Louis
Johnson

head to head

Ali
Foreman
Holmes


accomplishment

Ali
Louis
Foreman (or Holmes)

[quote="theone"]head to head

Ali
Foreman
Holmes


accomplishment

Ali
Louis
Foreman (or Holmes)[/quote]

Joe Frazier
Jimmy Young
Ken Norton

They each beat Ali, the supposed number 1, although Jimmy Young, who made Ali look like an amatuer was robbed and his record doesn't show that he actually beat Ali.

Frazier and Schmeling are 2 of the most overlooked fighters in HW boxing. It's almost like their victories upset the established order so much that they're swept under the carpet.

I don't see how Frazier's biggest win was "swept under the carpet". It's one of the most famous fights in history. There have been TV specials about and at least one book written about it. It has been broadcast umpteen times. (In contrast to the 2nd fight which is rarely shown.)

Perhaps some of other wins (Quarry,Ellis,Bonavena etc.) don't get the attention that they deserve; although ESPN Classic has had "Joe Frazier Marathons" featuring these and some of his other fights.

Still it seems that we don't talk about these fights very much on this forum.