Sandy Saddler: How underrated is he?

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 24 Mar 2008, 04:15

Sandy Saddler, Boxing Champion, Dies at 75
NEW YORK TIMES By GERALD ESKENAZI September 22, 2001

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9679C8B63

Sandy Saddler, a former featherweight boxing champion who was best remembered for his four bouts with Willie Pep, died Tuesday at the Schervier Nursing Care Center in the Bronx. He was 75.
He had Alzheimer's disease, his son, Sandy Jr., said.

Although Saddler had 162 fights, his career was defined by his brawls with Pep, whom he first met in 1948 and knocked out to win the featherweight title. Pep won in a rematch, but Saddler, who had fearsome knockout power, captured their last two fights.

It took Saddler 93 fights to get a title shot. He was so feared that he was forced to fight virtually every place but New York, where he was raised. He met opponents in South and Central America, Cuba and Hawaii. Fighters at his weight rarely possessed his punching ability.
Saddler had never before fought at Madison Square Garden when he met Pep there for the 130-pound [sic: 126 pound] featherweight crown in October 1948. At the time, Pep was the favorite and considered among the sport's greatest fighters. But he could not withstand the punching of Saddler, who knocked him out in the fourth round.

Pep regained the title in a 15-round decision at the Garden in February 1949. Saddler took the title back in September 1950 with an eighth-round knockout. In their fourth and last battle, in September 1951, the clever Pep, who was ahead of Saddler on points, was absorbing such a fearful beating that he refused to answer the bell for the 10th round.

Saddler, a native of Boston, was 144-16-2 with 103 knockouts.
He was knocked down only once by a rival featherweight. He was still the featherweight champion when he was forced to retire in 1957 after sustaining an eye injury in a taxi accident. He also had a one-year reign as junior lightweight champion, beating Orlando Zulueta in December 1949 for the crown.

He was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1990.
His later years were marked by serious health problems. In 1989, the police found him wandering one night in Brooklyn, his wallet and his glasses lost. Saddler spent seven weeks in Bellevue Hospital Center where, his son said, he was found to have dementia and memory loss. But his son said it was unclear whether the illness resulted from boxing.

Saddler was bitter in later years when he reflected on the acclaim that followed Pep but had eluded him. He believed racism played a part. ''They talk about him being one of the greatest fighters that ever lived,'' Saddler said, ''but I beat him three times in four meetings.''

After becoming a successful trainer, Saddler once reflected on how the fight game had changed. Boxers were being rushed along.
''I can't see how some kids are given title fights after only 15 or 20 fights,'' he said.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 24 Mar 2008, 09:06

Getting back to the original question, How underrated is he?
I don't really see how Saddler is underrated. His wins over Pep were legitimate, but Pep's overall career is a little better.

Saddler is almost always rated either the #1 or #2 featherweight of all time. Pound for pound, he considered one of the all time greats.
He gets plenty of attention. He was a great fighter and almost everyone thinks he was great. How is he underrated?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 24 Mar 2008, 15:34

Saddler is my pick as #1 feather.

saddler v Armstrong at 126 what a fight.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 24 Mar 2008, 18:45

Ambling Alp wrote:Getting back to the original question, How underrated is he?
I don't really see how Saddler is underrated. His wins over Pep were legitimate, but Pep's overall career is a little better.

Saddler is almost always rated either the #1 or #2 featherweight of all time. Pound for pound, he considered one of the all time greats.
He gets plenty of attention. He was a great fighter and almost everyone thinks he was great. How is he underrated?

He is UNDERRATED because we seldom talk about this great fighter. How could we miss him?

145 victories, 103 by knockout. Two-time feather and one-time jr lightweight world champion and retired undefeated champ. He is one of boxing's greatest punchers, pound per pound.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 24 Mar 2008, 18:46

What's your take on the post-crash Pep, Elmer?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 24 Mar 2008, 18:56

Goodnight, Irene wrote:What's your take on the post-crash Pep, Elmer?

I do not think that one was better than the other technically. Both fighters were super good. One was a great master boxer and the other an awesome KO artist.

If the crash had something to do with Pep's 3 losses with Saddler, then we got to discount his victory over Saddler on the rematch.

3 of those 4 fights were so foul-plagued it was rididculous. It was not even a BOXING MATCH. But I think it was the contrasts of styles that made the fights to appear like this. Pep was not going to let Saddler foul him, he is gonna foul Saddler, too. And he did.

Why these 4 fights were so foul-plagued? I do not know. Maybe we did not had a great referee like Arthur Mercante in those days.

BUT TALKING AGAIN ABOUT SANDY SADDLER, where in your list you place him pound per pound, Goodnite Irene?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 24 Mar 2008, 22:35

Of course, my list could change day-to-day, but I'm fairly happy (not completely) with this measure, at least for the moment 8)

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Willie Pep
6. Joe Gans
7. Jimmy Wilde
8. Joe Walcott
9. Pernell Whitaker
10. Roberto Duran
11. Benny Leonard
12. Bob Fitzsimmons
13. Sandy Saddler <----------
14. Ezzard Charles
15. Eder Jofre

Have to be conscious of Saddler & not letting him drop too low, when you place as much stock in Pep as I do.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 25 Mar 2008, 11:21

I think one has to define "underrated." Generally speaking, I don’t believe Saddler is underrated by anyone, as he appears on all of the top-ten featherweight lists I’ve ever seen (typically in the top 5), and generally appears among the top 10 or 20 all-time greats p4p, such as in Irene's list immediately above.

Specifically, however, its clear Saddler believed he was underrated in comparison with Willie Pep, and he complained about it quite vocally. I think this has led people to the assumption he was “underrated.”

Was he underrated with respect to Pep? Prime v. Prime, pre-plane crash Pep, I think any match-up would have been very competitive. Who can say that those favoring Pep are wrong? How can anyone know?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 25 Mar 2008, 19:49

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Of course, my list could change day-to-day, but I'm fairly happy (not completely) with this measure, at least for the moment 8)

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Willie Pep
6. Joe Gans
7. Jimmy Wilde
8. Joe Walcott
9. Pernell Whitaker
10. Roberto Duran
11. Benny Leonard
12. Bob Fitzsimmons
13. Sandy Saddler <----------
14. Ezzard Charles
15. Eder Jofre

Have to be conscious of Saddler & not letting him drop too low, when you place as much stock in Pep as I do.

Hey, that is a pretty good list. I am surprised that Muhammad Ali nor Joe Louis are not in the top 10.

I can see Sandy Saddler at position #13, maybe higher....I got him placed at #15, pound per pound and #3 at featherweight.

Great list though, all of them magnificent fighters.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 26 Mar 2008, 09:48

elmersalsa wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:What's your take on the post-crash Pep, Elmer?

elmer salsa said:
"If the crash had something to do with Pep's 3 losses with Saddler, then we got to discount his victory over Saddler on the rematch."

By that line of reasoning, if you think Roberto Duran was past his prime when he left the lightweight division, you have to discount all of his victories after leaving the lightweight division.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 26 Mar 2008, 14:45

Ambling Alp wrote: if you think Roberto Duran was past his prime when he left the lightweight division, you have to discount all of his victories after leaving the lightweight division.

Duran's victories after he left the lightweight division and fought in a fat, old and out of shape condition

illustrated clearly the low competence level boxing had fallen to at that time.

Just as Foreman's later 'career' illustrated the pathetic level boxing had descended to.

.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 26 Mar 2008, 18:56

yea, great list of fighters but you forgot to put 'em in order. pernell whitaker cannot be higher than saddler, nor can jersey joe or fitzsimmons.
needs some work that list.

i think saddler was/is underrated and undervalued. no excuses, he had peps number.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 26 Mar 2008, 18:58

That's Barbados Joe, not Jersey.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 26 Mar 2008, 18:59

whatever walcott it was he dont make an all time greatest list of mine

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 26 Mar 2008, 19:00

"Hey, that is a pretty good list. I am surprised that Muhammad Ali nor Joe Louis are not in the top 10.

I can see Sandy Saddler at position #13, maybe higher....I got him placed at #15, pound per pound and #3 at featherweight.

Great list though, all of them magnificent fighters. " - Elmer

Thanks, though if you asked me in a month, it'd probably be different. One thing that won't change is a spot for Louis or Ali (both of whom are overrated in a p-4-p sense). Each of them only scrape into my top thirty, as unpopular as that view will be. Too many great fighters ahead of both of them.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 26 Mar 2008, 19:00

whats so great about old bob fitz.

i like the idea and i understand youre bored with joe and ali making p4p lists all the time but there might just be a reason for their inclusion in 99%
of comps by experts and bozos alike

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 26 Mar 2008, 19:03

Sorry, but a severe air crash, the effects of which were visible in efforts prior to his battles with Saddler, aren't exactly what a modern fighter (any fighter) would call, "excuses." I still firmly believe there is an air here on BoxRec which underestimates how much Pep (a fighter dependent on his legs, no less) was inhibited by that accident.

As for Fitzsimmons, read up. You'll be impressed, I've no doubt

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 26 Mar 2008, 19:07

read up? ive been reading up on fitzsimmons since my daddy told me about him for my bedtime stories. he dont make no all time list neither.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 26 Mar 2008, 19:07

i like your enthusiasm though. its refreshing

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 26 Mar 2008, 19:10

Didn't intend for it to come across as offensive, mate *Touch gloves*

IMO, if someone can pick only three or four fighters out of a top fifteen they disagree strongly with when that list is all-time p-4-p (the hardest list to compile in boxing), then I consider that a good day!

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 27 Mar 2008, 07:28

no offense taken at all. agree with that summation of an all time list. its so subjective anyway. its new angles that keeps this sort of stuff interesting.

promoterjoe · Post by **promoterjoe** » 27 Mar 2008, 09:02

Truly great fighter! Easily Top 10 pound for pound all time in my book!

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 27 Mar 2008, 10:41

harrygreb wrote:read up? ive been reading up on fitzsimmons since my daddy told me about him for my bedtime stories. he dont make no all time list neither.

You must be crazy not to include the great Bob Fitzsimmons with the all-time pound per pound great ones.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 27 Mar 2008, 16:44

i must be crazy

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 27 Mar 2008, 18:18