BoxRec

Robinson wrote:when was sparring the same as an actual fight ?

But a good small guy often beats a bad-average bigger guy...

how about a good big guy


Haye I am interested to learn about to see how he does, as I am somewhat ignorant of more modern boxing, ie the last 5 yrs as such.

I have only seen clips of him here and there...would be nice to see a small man win that heavy crown again.

Hell it would be good to see one man win the crown...not to have so many .... er ... champions.

Seamus wrote:Shall we refer to every fighter by the original weight they fought at ? And would sanctioning bodies ever agree to let them fight at those weights again regardless of there current weights ? How many guys refer to Ezzard Charles as really a Middleweight in regards to his Heavyweight career, or Young Stribling as a Featherweight, as in perhaps "Schmeling needed 15 rds to dispose of a Featherweight".

I remember guys on here making comments about how if James Toney ever got himself in real shape he could dominate this sorry Heavyweight division. Well we did see Toney in that kind of shape against Jirov. Under 200 lbs and in that Golden Age of HW's range, and what happened ? He won a fairly close decision against a pretty good Cruiserweight titlist. So, if the 190 lb version of Toney could dominate the heavyweights, then it's probably a safe assumption to say the guy that gave him a good fight would also do pretty well there. Course that theory bit the dust when Jirov got clocked by fat and faded Michael Moorer the following year.

dempseyfire wrote:

MatthewS wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:In 1979, the lightheavyweight division was loaded with good fighters and lots of good fights. So naturally in an effort to break up a good thing a new weight class was born that eventually took some of the lightheavyweights away to the cruiserweight division and split up the talent pool.

The esteemed WBC recognized the first cruiserweight title fight in 1979. Mate Parlov and Marvin Camel fought to a draw. Thus the glorious history of the cruiserweight division began. Camel won the rematch in 1980 and with it the presitgous WBC Cruiserweight belt.

Originally the WBC weight limit was 190, then it was 195 for a few years. Then around 1986, it came back to 190.
The renowned WBA didn't start until 1982 and had it at 190. Of course all the WBS organizations now recognize the limit as 200.

I thought it was cut from the bottom of the heavies, not the top of light-heavy?

No, that's what the orgs wanted people to believe, that the HWs had "evolved" to be so big that a weight class was needed for small HWs (and this was an era when you had tubs of goo like Page and Tubbs leaning on each other for 15 rounds). But if you look at almost all of the top cruiserweights in history, they went up to cruiser after being at 175 (O'Neil Bell, Mormeck, Camel, Hill, Thompson, Adamek, G. Jones, U. Grant, Csyz) And these guys wern't light HWs at 19 and then jumped up a few years later. They were weighing that in their mid-late 20s (and sometimes beyond that)
Spinks is one of the few I can think who actually came from the HW class, and he came down b/c he probably thought the cruiserweights might be profitable and the comp was weak. Well, his weak chin got exposed there yet again.

90% of the time, if you can make 175 at 25, you can make it at 30. You might just have the work a little harder. The cruiserweights are in the dead zone of not cutting to 175 but not being natural HWs so not being able to compete at Heavyweight. Holyfield and Haye were a couple of the few true "small Heavyweights" at cruiser and as you can see, they moved up to Heavyweight to where the $ is.

HomicideHenry wrote:It's ironic, because back when there was only 8 divisions and just one belt per weight class

Seamus wrote:The 190 lb version of Toney had better stamina and speed, but the 230 lb + one was stronger and had more power. .

VoiceOnTV wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

MatthewS wrote: I thought it was cut from the bottom of the heavies, not the top of light-heavy?

No, that's what the orgs wanted people to believe, that the HWs had "evolved" to be so big that a weight class was needed for small HWs (and this was an era when you had tubs of goo like Page and Tubbs leaning on each other for 15 rounds). But if you look at almost all of the top cruiserweights in history, they went up to cruiser after being at 175 (O'Neil Bell, Mormeck, Camel, Hill, Thompson, Adamek, G. Jones, U. Grant, Csyz) And these guys wern't light HWs at 19 and then jumped up a few years later. They were weighing that in their mid-late 20s (and sometimes beyond that)
Spinks is one of the few I can think who actually came from the HW class, and he came down b/c he probably thought the cruiserweights might be profitable and the comp was weak. Well, his weak chin got exposed there yet again.

90% of the time, if you can make 175 at 25, you can make it at 30. You might just have the work a little harder. The cruiserweights are in the dead zone of not cutting to 175 but not being natural HWs so not being able to compete at Heavyweight. Holyfield and Haye were a couple of the few true "small Heavyweights" at cruiser and as you can see, they moved up to Heavyweight to where the $ is.

The best cruisers historically have moved up, BUT the original (at least very good) and certainly dominant ones moved down. Ossie Ocasio and "Sugar" De Leon came down from heavyweight. At Cruiserweight they were outstanding but would've never stood a chance at heavy.

Robinson wrote:Did the Ring ever not aknowledge any other weight divisions in the past ?

What belt?

dempseyfire wrote:

forreal wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: But Light HW was one of those "8" divisions . . .

The 175 lb class has been around in the sport almost as long as fighters have been wearing gloves.

Obviously the shorter the fight, the greater a bigger man generally has an advantage. The bare-knuckle era had very few elite fighters over 220 lbs as in a dragged out fight over 2+ hours, the real big men would simply wear out.

With gloves and shorter duration of fights, it made rational sense to forge a middle ground between the middleweights and heavyweights.

Cruiserweights were created 80 years later, solely for the purpose of greed and greater sanctioning fees. I don't remember any "fighter's union" demanding a new weight class . . . .

The elimination of 15 rounders has been one change that clearly has made it easier for the 'super' HWs (Lennox would've had several more losses if 15 rounders had been present IMO) but the change isn't great enough to justify a new weight class.

You my friend...are clueless, and have clearly never stepped into the ring, much less stepped into the ring at 185 Lbs, with a 235 pound opponent. I have, because there was no Cruiserweight division at the time.
Could I have made 175 ? Probably, dried up to the point muscular atrophy with post dehydration symptoms.

Your silly generalization that a bigger man has an advantage in a shorter fight, is sure fire proof you have no idea what you are talking about in terms of weight management and cutting weight. The fact is, that many times, the total reverse is true

You will never see a sub 225 HW make any lasting impact in the division again, Because no matter what media hacks and web sight babblers try to say, The boxer, just like all other atheletes, have evolved in terms of size and strength,size DOES matter, and that holds true at 12 OR 15 rounds

In the future, I would suggest you choose a venue where there is no one who actually knows what they are taloking about to call you on your ass babble. that way, you wont embarrass yourself

Maybe you just sucked buddy. I regularly sparred with 220 lbers when I weighed frikkin' 165 lbs, and I received quite a few licks but was not simply beaten around the bush, even had my good days, and I was simply a casual amateur with no interest in ever going professional (and not close to being a world class fighter). If I could go rounds and even stagger a few guys, I can definitely understand how bigger 190 lb machines like Dempsey could obliterate much bigger men.

Your knowledge of evolution and how it works is non-existant, and scientifically inaccurate. People don't "evolve" in strength/size over 50 years you moron. So would a 215 lb Tyson not be the undisputed champ today?? Or a 210 lb Holyfield?? The likes of Byrd, Povetkin, Chagaev, Toney, Jones Jr, Ibragimov, Chambers etc. are not natural 220 lbers but small Heavyweights, and beyond Wladimir they are/were recently the elite of the division.

It would take hours to go through and list the examples of 185-215 lbers ANNIHILATING good HWs fighters over 225. The list is endless. I've seen 180 lbers kick 230 lbers asses in the gym with my own eyes, it's not some fairytale. Of course, the 185 lber giving up that much weight will have to make up for the difference with speed/skill and endurance, and the margin for error is definitely smaller. But that distance has been bridged frequently throughout history and will continue to be.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Tell us all how Joe Calzaghe would beat Billy Conn at Light-Heavy again, For Real.

Robinson wrote:Using Toney as an example.....

If he was a better fighter at say 190-200 and fitter, then why has he felt the need to bulk up to 230ish. Was it to be able to add those extra lb's on so he could absorb and bang with the bigger men....because he seemingly did add the weight intentionally,

And I sincerly do not believe he loves his food that much ?


In regards to RJJ at HW...who I was so excited about making the leap after other big men after the Ruiz fight.

What happened ? Why did he not pursue it and stamp his authority as a 185-190lb man in a big field of bigger money fights. I am curious to know, as I have read a few opinions on it.

Thanks again guys....

forreal wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

forreal wrote: You my friend...are clueless, and have clearly never stepped into the ring, much less stepped into the ring at 185 Lbs, with a 235 pound opponent. I have, because there was no Cruiserweight division at the time.
Could I have made 175 ? Probably, dried up to the point muscular atrophy with post dehydration symptoms.

Your silly generalization that a bigger man has an advantage in a shorter fight, is sure fire proof you have no idea what you are talking about in terms of weight management and cutting weight. The fact is, that many times, the total reverse is true

You will never see a sub 225 HW make any lasting impact in the division again, Because no matter what media hacks and web sight babblers try to say, The boxer, just like all other atheletes, have evolved in terms of size and strength,size DOES matter, and that holds true at 12 OR 15 rounds

In the future, I would suggest you choose a venue where there is no one who actually knows what they are taloking about to call you on your ass babble. that way, you wont embarrass yourself

Maybe you just sucked buddy. I regularly sparred with 220 lbers when I weighed frikkin' 165 lbs, and I received quite a few licks but was not simply beaten around the bush, even had my good days, and I was simply a casual amateur with no interest in ever going professional (and not close to being a world class fighter). If I could go rounds and even stagger a few guys, I can definitely understand how bigger 190 lb machines like Dempsey could obliterate much bigger men.

Your knowledge of evolution and how it works is non-existant, and scientifically inaccurate. People don't "evolve" in strength/size over 50 years you moron. So would a 215 lb Tyson not be the undisputed champ today?? Or a 210 lb Holyfield?? The likes of Byrd, Povetkin, Chagaev, Toney, Jones Jr, Ibragimov, Chambers etc. are not natural 220 lbers but small Heavyweights, and beyond Wladimir they are/were recently the elite of the division.

It would take hours to go through and list the examples of 185-215 lbers ANNIHILATING good HWs fighters over 225. The list is endless. I've seen 180 lbers kick 230 lbers asses in the gym with my own eyes, it's not some fairytale. Of course, the 185 lber giving up that much weight will have to make up for the difference with speed/skill and endurance, and the margin for error is definitely smaller. But that distance has been bridged frequently throughout history and will continue to be.

Yes spud, athletes, including boxers have evoloved over the past 50, and even 30 years, and surprise, you are safer in a new car with air bags then in a 1952 ford with a steel dash board