BoxRec

Autobarn wrote:The thing is, those fights are so well matched that many times they had to show true greatness during a fight - they had to pull out something special because they engaged in so many meaningful fights. I think all the fights from 122-130 - or at least the best ones, show what a damn shame the middle, super middle and light heavyweight divisions were.

Calzaghe came good, but only after a lengthy WBO reign that many in thie UK didn't even acknowledge as legit.

Chris Byrd should have been a super middle/light heavy but he fattened up and became one of the least memorable heavyweight title holders ever.

Roy Jones had a sensational win over Toney, but HBO carried him for 9 years giving him $5 per fight vs ANYONE in the top 10 of a sanctioning body. Ends up getting brutally KO'd twice and now fights on the fringes of world class, sadly.

Hopkins, an excellent middle, could have moved up for the big fights at any time. Despite lacking recognition, he appeared to waste many yrs, until DLH moved up etc.

These guys could all have been the same weight and all have fought memorable fights together, the equivalent to what MAB, JMM, Pac and Morales did. But they didn't.

But its hugely subjective to place greatness on these fighters were losses occurred. You say greatness occurred within the fights and that's very difficult to quantify. Staying undefeated and unifying a division is much more objective. Calzaghe proved he was the best at SMW. He dominated. Something the aforementioned fighters struggled to do. BUt yes, they were / are great fighters and of course, the merry-go-round of rematches generated the dollars.

It's not hard to quantify because the fights were of such a high standard of skill and intensity between the recent Fab Four.

When the asolute best fights are made no one can really be dominant. Those are the kind of fights decided on a knife edge.

Autobarn wrote:It's not hard to quantify because the fights were of such a high standard of skill and intensity between the recent Fab Four.

When the asolute best fights are made no one can really be dominant. Those are the kind of fights decided on a knife edge.

But that is still assuming that these guys are the elite of the elite, and I just dont buy that they were / are legends, that they are some of the best in history, but happened to be just so evenly matched they could not dominate. Im not going to give them credit for losing. And yes the've had some wars but so have many many boxers. Their popularity comes from the fact they were champions and as we've said the fact that there has been no one clear dominant fighter between them, with the extra factor coming from the US based hype and of course, the various supporting nations.

What is more impressive for me and far more objective is Joe's domination of his weight. He's won every single belt over time at SMW, he's unified, he's never lost. He simply did not allow for the cimpetition to set up a seesaw of thrilling rematches because he beat them all. Yes if there had been someone as good and as intense as clazaghe that could have beat him, we could have some good battles, but there wasn't. And thats fine with me, I prefer it that way. I prefer seeing him take ona two belt young and hungry champ, and being victorious. The Barerra/pacman/morales/jmm legendary bollocks bores me. Emperors clothes to an extent. Theres one thing enoying a hard fought war were the outcome could go either way, but that does not equate to being the very best, being elite, dominating.

Fist, I almost see your point. But Joe unified a division without a recognised champ, he was a belt holder beating fringe guys, up until Lacy. And then, yes, he beat Kessler, and kudos for that.

But Barrera and Morales were both beating fringe guys (better fringe guys, in my opinion), then fought each other. Joe could have done the same with Ottke, they were judging each other by the results they had against the same guys. You can put the blame on Ottke, or you can put it on Joe, but they never did what Morales and Barrera did, which is pitch two rivals against each other. Elite fighters are made from elite match-ups. Yes, Joe has redeemed himself with Lacy and Kessler at 168, but that was late in a decade long career at super middle. He could have taken more risks than he did, which negates his '0'.

I don't care for Joe Calzone. He is an ugly and boring fighter.

Most slappers are ugly!

Terry D wrote:

chief wrote:

josh fg wrote: Sure he does just not in front of Lennox Lewis!

Without going into what would no doubt be a huge debate about resumes, legacys etc, a case could be made that Calzaghe deserves to sit ahead or at least alongside LL.... Don't forget, Lewis performances and resume can be picked apart too - think of struggles vs Bruno, Mercer, uninspired performances vs Tua, Maurovic (sp??), getting knocked sparko by McCall, Rahman, a controversial rematch vs Holy, beating a shell of Mike Tyson in a so called "legacy" fight etc... You get the idea... Yes, Lewis spent his time fighting stateside, flying the flag in the most prestigious boxing division... But he's not immune to similar levels of criticism to Calzaghe when you break it down...

The Tua performance was brilliant. He completely defused a dangerous guy and the final act saw Lewis send Tua head first into the turnbuckle just by using movement. It is Lewis' finest fight in my opinion.

Every act of discredit, Holyfield being old, you put on Lewis can be put onto Joe, Hopkins was ancient and arguably won that fight. Joe has noly just started to do what Lewis did for year in and year out.

Look at the names on LL's actual reign as a world champion, are they all really that stellar?? ... McCall, Akinwande, Briggs, Maurovic, Grant, Tua, Botha, Rahman... Even the "better" ones of Golota, Holy and Tyson can be questionned through age, mental state/health etc.... There's 2 losses amongst that lot and a life and death struggle with Vitali to round it all off..

The Tua performace was "uninspired" - an easy nights work for Lewis, because of the huge reach/size difference, he knew it too.. All Tua had was a left hook and an ability to walk on to jabs...

And dont forget Lewis decision to sell his IBF belt to Don King rather than face Chris Byrd...

So his reign as champion is not beyond critisiscm either...

I even remember some journalists questioning the products used on Tua's hair, and whether they'd hamper Lewis's vision.

Good post, Terry. Give it a decade or two and I think history will be a little kinder to LL and view his reign as an outstanding one.

Terry - I can tell you are a Lewis fan.. I, however, have not really been a fan of either... The title of this thread is along the lines of "If Calzaghe beats Pavlik..." and I think if that happens, Joe would have to be up there alongside the likes of Lennox Lewis as a British boxing great... I am not trying to discredit Lewis achievements at the top end of the sport, merely to point out that comparisions/crticisims etc can be made of any resume/career you care to choose... Lennox Lewis included. Yes, Joe Calzaghe's career has been an, at times, frustrating one, lacking legitimacy, but recently the level of his opposition and his performances enhance the idea that, actually, the guy is a proven winner, capable of perfoming and getting the results, regardless of the circumstances and level of opposition... People will continue to pick holes in Calzaghe's achievements, myself included and there have been periods of SN matchmaking (Arthur, Harrision, Hatton, Calzaghe etc) that have been truely frustrating... But in the end, if Calzaghe continues this winning streak at the top end of the sport, then he will deserve "lennox-esque" recognition for his achievements... That's all I'm trying to say..

And the Tua performance never lived up to the pre-fight hype.. Maybe that rests with the limited, slugging Tua being waaaay too short to get inside Lewis reach... But certainly Lewis jab and move tactics left a lot of people feeling short changed that night as Lewis had an easy nights work... Ok, Lewis did what he had to do but maybe a more inspired performance would have led to Tua being pulled out of there?? Effective, yes... Spectacular, no...

I hope Lewis gets inducted in the Canastota Hall of Fame the moment he is eligible. Which should be soon.

Calzaghe was happy to stick to his minor WBO reign for a long, long time whereas Lewis had pretty much the whole system, the big promoters, the major boxing writers, all against him and he always asked for Tyson, Bowe and Evander.

Calzaghe has been all about protecting the unbeaten record and he's had every advantage in every fight and there is the shaky pullout vs Glen Johnson as well. If he makes it through another big fight unbeaten it's hard to argue with success but he's been handled with extreme care.

Lewis really did try to go after everyone and make all the fights. He wasn't everyone's cup of tea but he is the only "super heavyweight" to get it right, to have a long title reign, to win the massive fights. These fights lost their lustre (like Joe v Hopkins) for happening too late, but Lewis wanted these fights earlier.

Lewis also has some crushing KO wins over guys hyped to beat him (Ruddock, Golota, Grant).

Did Joe want the big fights earlier - James McDonnell makes a good case on here that Joe seemed to be a bit spooked by what RJJ did to Woods.

Lewis was rightly critical of Joe v Hopkins: "All Joe did was slap".

Terry D wrote:

chesh wrote:Good post, Terry. Give it a decade or two and I think history will be a little kinder to LL and view his reign as an outstanding one.

I'm a Lewis fan and Chief will no doubt give sound reasons for Joe but saying the Tua fight was uninspired is like dismissing the Kessler win. Lewis-Tua is one of my most watched fights.

class performance from lenny.

he started fast in that 1st rd and put tua in his shell bigtime.

tua didn't wanna taste any of that shit to often and didn't take no chances.

hurt tua in the 10th briefly as well.

beautiful.

Lewis is getting in the Canadian HOF but a lot of those pricks who slagged him off for the big newspapers are surely BWAA members that will overlook Lewis - and other underappreciated guys that reigned long - in favour of this or that popular Californian slugger for the IBHOF.

Brian Mitchell's not even in yet is he? Disgrace.

Terry D wrote:

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:I even remember some journalists questioning the products used on Tua's hair, and whether they'd hamper Lewis's vision.

He used lemon stuff in the end didn't he? Best was Lewis' appraisal of the pre-fight dossier they had on him, ripped it in half and shouted "Fiction!". Then said you need more than a hair doo and a left hook to beat him.

People write Tua off now but he was picked by some to beat Lennox, as was Grant. I even recall Larry Merchant saying Wlad would beat Lewis at that point, then Wlad got his arse handed to him by a semi-retired golfer.

HBO basically did not like Lewis then because he refused to kiss their arses, Lewis even had the cheek to disagree with Merchant when Larry suggested the win over VK was marred by controversy. He twatted the guy in the face and cut his eye wide open, where is the controversy?

Lederman once said he preferred the Brother's K because they would stop and talk to him whereas Lewis would not do this, would you talk to the imbecile who had the Tua fight level after 6-rounds?

I can gurantee Merchant and Lewis don't get along, mate. I've got a recent fight (I can't remember which, annoying, possibly Taylor v Pavlik II!!!) where the two of them argue because Merchant has a dig at the Holyfield I decision. It's uncomfortable, but funny.

And yes, you're right, I distinctly remember journos giving both Tua and Grant VERY good chaces against Lewis. Especially Tua after the Rahman and Ibeauchi fights (God, they don't fight like that anymore!).

Terry D wrote:

chief wrote:Terry - I can tell you are a Lewis fan.. I, however, have not really been a fan of either... The title of this thread is along the lines of "If Calzaghe beats Pavlik..." and I think if that happens, Joe would have to be up there alongside the likes of Lennox Lewis as a British boxing great... I am not trying to discredit Lewis achievements at the top end of the sport, merely to point out that comparisions/crticisims etc can be made of any resume/career you care to choose... Lennox Lewis included. Yes, Joe Calzaghe's career has been an, at times, frustrating one, lacking legitimacy, but recently the level of his opposition and his performances enhance the idea that, actually, the guy is a proven winner, capable of perfoming and getting the results, regardless of the circumstances and level of opposition... People will continue to pick holes in Calzaghe's achievements, myself included and there have been periods of SN matchmaking (Arthur, Harrision, Hatton, Calzaghe etc) that have been truely frustrating... But in the end, if Calzaghe continues this winning streak at the top end of the sport, then he will deserve "lennox-esque" recognition for his achievements... That's all I'm trying to say..

And the Tua performance never lived up to the pre-fight hype.. Maybe that rests with the limited, slugging Tua being waaaay too short to get inside Lewis reach... But certainly Lewis jab and move tactics left a lot of people feeling short changed that night as Lewis had an easy nights work... Ok, Lewis did what he had to do but maybe a more inspired performance would have led to Tua being pulled out of there?? Effective, yes... Spectacular, no...

A win over Pavlik would be good but Pavlik himself has flaws aplenty. Take Joe's recent level of foe and pan it out over a career and you have Lennox Lewis' career, which did not take an eternity to get going. Joe only recently got a linear and legitimate hold of the division he is in, and he is unlikely to defend that title against a young pretender, Froch, whereas Lewis did it with Grant.

The Tua hype was that Lewis would get splattered so in that sense it did not live up to the hype, it excelled it. Lewis out-boxed a dangerous guy round after round and the lack of a KO is a criticism? Same can be applied to Calzaghe-Lacy. Joe has not stepped into the bigger fights and stopped anyone, Lewis was stopping dangerous guys along the line, with Vitali being the final one.

Joe would need another 4 years and a few more Pavlik's to catch Lewis. Plus he does not have the highlight reel KO's that Lewis has, so for every Tua there was a Ruddock, hardly the case with Joe. They bought him his last stoppage win.

I think Lewis is being inducted this year isn't he? Joe will be rcognised but in my mind guys like Lewis and Ken B, in recent times, had more desire than Joe has shown.

Terry - Just to play devil's advocate again...

Lacy was labelled as the young pretender, even Kessler was potentially the heir apparent... Joe beat both.. Ok, not with highlight reel KO's, but heavy hitting is what heavy weights do... Its the reason that Lennox Lewis got KTFO twice, by average level fighters... Each time Joe tasted the canvas, he's fought back to win... Also, Lewis "legacy" (or lack of it) was still so questionable towards the end of his career that it relied on an 8 round pounding of old/rusty/scrap iron Mike Tyson for him to finally get the recognition he deserved... Don't get me wrong, Lewis has had a spectacular career, an all time top ranked H/W.. But Calzaghe has remained at the top of his game for over 10 years now and has shown in recent times that he is now a worthy, top level champion too.

Peter Hick wrote:No, I will never respect him. He wasted his best years because he was too scared to lose and now he is desperately trying to secure some sort of legacy. It's too late!

His legacy will be confirmed if he goes unbeaten on retiring. - FW is to blame for holding him back against the US stars for so long, not him.

I think Pavlik if he fights Calzaghe he will retire him, I would avoid that fight if I was Joe because I think Kelly will have to much for him in Joe's twilight of his career.

Obviously i'd love to see the fight though

I'll give Joe his credit but the reason he was held back was Roy Jones, IMO.

When Jones lost, Calzaghe was then moved forward for big fights the year or two after Roy's boots were smoked.

He shouldn't feel too bad, as Jones didn't exactly demand fights with guys who had styles to trouble him like Nunn and Liles, and RJJ certainly put off Tarver as long as he could resulting in 2 losses from 3 fights.

stujones wrote:Well, personally I think Glenn Catley beat Richie Woodhall (as did Richie and practically everyone else) so think he was the best Britain had to offer at the time.

Catley also beat a guy who beat Woodhall and was Joe second most natural rival in Beyer.

Personally I think Bute is more of a threat than Pavlik, a natural Super Middleweight with better skills..... not "dissing" Pavlik but I honestly think Bute would be better for his legacy. Because if/when he beats Pavlik there is always that 1 Super Middleweight of this generation that he hasn't faced - fights and beats Bute... then there is none (aside from maybe Froch).

The Ottke ommision is huge and I think one that Joe will never componsinate as far as his standing amongst the elite.

But of course I respect Joe - have given him respect since 1997.

Joe's Bum of the month club gets alot of criticism, but I do think it is just - its OVER half his defences. I wouldn't call Sheika solid, and I am very bregruding about Veit status as being solid.

Joe should get recognition as one of the UK's finest ever fighters, no doubting that - but other things that get his way (such as most title defences)... well that does grate a little.

Does anyone seriously think Catley would have been a genuine threat to Calzaghe? Catley was game but never anywhere near Calzaghe level and would have been heavily beaten.....and the Ottke ommission means nothing as everyone knows Ottke was a fighter who lost several times, but only had to finish a fight on his feet to be declared a winner in Germany.

Sheika was considered solid prior to getting smashed up by Joe and indeed many Amercans were confident he'd beat Calzaghe. Veit wasn't an easy task especially in Germany and though there are some suspect names on Calzaghe slate, he's more than made up for that in recent fights.

pavlik would be a very good win for joe.

i think joe has the style to deal with him fairly soundly.

there isn't a great deal of names out there for joe right now.

a pavlik fight would round out his career nicely.