BoxRec

"THX for acknowledging my point.

U see I can take five words out of a quote and make it seem like you don't understand nothing IRENE. Quite easy. Now if you read what I wrote after, you would understand why we have the likes of Mayorga, Rahman and Brewster named in the thread.

So who do you come up with? Truly top fighters like you call them have good defense." - Jaywheel

Don't try to make me out to be glib, that was the highlight of your post, & you flat-out said that becoming world champion automatically registers you as a top fighter. That being the case, do you or do you not class Carnera & Rahman as top fighters?

I can be even shorter, actually --- everything I need to know about your perception of Gatti is in your location.

Counter-P, Chavez fought a lot of tomato cans in his day, I think we can all agree. That doesn't hurt his numbers, & he was also a high-output fighter, which has to be considered. People can rightly argue that men such as Chavez & Frazier had strong defense for their styles, but the reality is these fighters are still working on a mantra of taking punches to land punches. Look at Frazier after the first fight with Ali --- Ali acknowledged that Frazier was harder to hit than he expected, but the latter still looked like Frankenstein afterward.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Look at Frazier after the first fight with Ali --- Ali acknowledged that Frazier was harder to hit than he expected, but the latter still looked like Frankenstein afterward.

True, but the fact that Frazier was fighting one of the best heavyweights ever in one of the best fights ever has to be taken into accont there.

Besides, look at how Ali looked after the fight. The right sides of both his face and his side were swollen like hell. But would you say that Ali had bad defense because he got hit so much in that fight (and other wars he had against good fighters)?

My2Sense wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Look at Frazier after the first fight with Ali --- Ali acknowledged that Frazier was harder to hit than he expected, but the latter still looked like Frankenstein afterward.

True, but the fact that Frazier was fighting one of the best heavyweights ever in one of the best fights ever has to be taken into accont there.

Besides, look at how Ali looked after the fight. The right sides of both his face and his side were swollen like hell. But would you say that Ali had bad defense because he got hit so much in that fight (and other wars he had against good fighters)?

Ali never had a strong defense --- he swayed out of range with his hands held low --- that isn't my idea of a worthy defensive fighter. People will point to the fact that he didn't often get hit while in his prime, but most of his swaying back was done in the 60's prior to the lay-off, & his opposition between 1960-67 wasn't great for the most part. Ali had great reflexes, & people seem to confuse this with great defense. They aren't the same thing.

This had mostly stopped, however, by the time he first met Frazier. He was a little slower, but more durable. Frazier was a high output fighter who relied moreso on breaking down opposition, rather than taking them out with one good shot, so it's not terribly surprising Ali looked a mess --- mildly so, but not terribly. Any fighter who can hit as hard as Frazier does & throws as many punches as he does is going to make meatball soup out of a lot of their adversaries, as Chavez did. Look at Bonavena after his second outing against Frazier, or Quarry first time around --- battered fighters.

Beau Jack
Henry Armstrong

Those 2 comes to mind often about no defense.

My2Sense wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Look at Frazier after the first fight with Ali --- Ali acknowledged that Frazier was harder to hit than he expected, but the latter still looked like Frankenstein afterward.

True, but the fact that Frazier was fighting one of the best heavyweights ever in one of the best fights ever has to be taken into accont there.

Besides, look at how Ali looked after the fight. The right sides of both his face and his side were swollen like hell. But would you say that Ali had bad defense because he got hit so much in that fight (and other wars he had against good fighters)?

Ali LOST in the biggest and most anticipated fight in history...NO EXCUSES..Frazier even hurt him and like granberry always says: "Frazier put Ali FLAT ON HIS BACK" . That was a beautiful left hook.

I wonder which left hook was better thrown by the great Joe Frazier?
With Jimmy Ellis?
With the great Bob Foster?
or with the great Muhammad Ali?

Does anyone else think Gatti's name looks out of place alongside fighters such as Arguello, Holyfield, Frazier, Chavez, & Armstrong, or am I alone? LOL.

Why are these two men crying?

HINT:

I think Gatti is a top fighter.

I dont think he is an ATG though.

How was John L Sullivan's defence ?

In recent times, the late Diego Corrales comes to mind as a top fighter who had no defense. At the lighter weights that wasen't a problem, but as he moved up it caught up with him. At the time of his death he was pretty much finished as a serious contender.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

My2Sense wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Look at Frazier after the first fight with Ali --- Ali acknowledged that Frazier was harder to hit than he expected, but the latter still looked like Frankenstein afterward.

True, but the fact that Frazier was fighting one of the best heavyweights ever in one of the best fights ever has to be taken into accont there.

Besides, look at how Ali looked after the fight. The right sides of both his face and his side were swollen like hell. But would you say that Ali had bad defense because he got hit so much in that fight (and other wars he had against good fighters)?

Ali never had a strong defense --- he swayed out of range with his hands held low --- that isn't my idea of a worthy defensive fighter. People will point to the fact that he didn't often get hit while in his prime, but most of his swaying back was done in the 60's prior to the lay-off, & his opposition between 1960-67 wasn't great for the most part. Ali had great reflexes, & people seem to confuse this with great defense. They aren't the same thing.

This had mostly stopped, however, by the time he first met Frazier. He was a little slower, but more durable. Frazier was a high output fighter who relied moreso on breaking down opposition, rather than taking them out with one good shot, so it's not terribly surprising Ali looked a mess --- mildly so, but not terribly. Any fighter who can hit as hard as Frazier does & throws as many punches as he does is going to make meatball soup out of a lot of their adversaries, as Chavez did. Look at Bonavena after his second outing against Frazier, or Quarry first time around --- battered fighters.

You make good points, both did take a lot of shots to land their own. Chavez actually had very good skin so he didn't seem to incur a lot of visible damage but now that I think about it, he did get hit plenty of times, especially against his top opposition.

Aaron Pryor's defense wasn't exactly top notch either, his wild style would occasionally lead him to getting blasted by flush shots, like the infamous one Arguello hit him with that snapped his head back like a bobblehead.

The Dark Destroyer.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Does anyone else think Gatti's name looks out of place alongside fighters such as Arguello, Holyfield, Frazier, Chavez, & Armstrong, or am I alone? LOL.

Yeah, I'm biased towards a two time world champ because I'm from Mtl. True he was never on the same level as PBF or DLH and got schooled by them. I've never said he was the total package and an ATG. But if he's not a top fighter... Corrales, Castillo, Vargas, Trinidad, Judah, Forrest, and all the likes aren't either.

So it comes down to a pretty small list of A-level fighters and we end up arguing and wondering who's really out of place by saying JCC had a POOR defense...

Diamond WEAPON wrote: Aaron Pryor's defense wasn't exactly top notch either, his wild style would occasionally lead him to getting blasted by flush shots, like the infamous one Arguello hit him with that snapped his head back like a bobblehead.

LOL

And here I thought Aaron Pryor knocked Arguello out TWICE.

But all the clueless newsmen, who always travel in a herd, wanted Arguello to win and disliked Pryor

so after their scenario blew up in their faces TWICE

the best they can come up with to justify their cluelessness is crap like the above.

I just went to Google and put in Pryor Arguello under photos.

AS EXPECTED

there is not a single photo of Arguello knocked out.

But of course there are endless picture of Arguello throwing a punch at Pryor.

From the pictures you would think they were even fights.

This is the news media's technique when the crap they are instructed to sell goes up in flames.

IT NEVER HAPPENED.

NOT A SINGLE PHOTO of Arguello out cold.


That is the same procedure the stooge media follows with Frazier-Ali.

Frazier beat Ali and knocked Ali flat on his back.?

HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT !

HOW DARE YOU post a photo of Ali knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier !

boxrec 'moderator' buzz, thoroughly indoctrinated by the media's crap and talking points,

even posted that it was "defamation" to post photos of Ali knocked flat on his back by Frazier.

The best the sicko media can up with in their false presentation of Frazier-Ali is to continually show a picture of Ali throwing a punch at Frazier

while completely blacking out the fact that Frazier beat Ali thoroughly and knocked Ali flat on his back.

Here they go through the exact same routine with Pryor-Arguello.

Disgusting.

It's always a bit disturbing when the nice lady with the medicine cart runs a bit late over at granberry's wing.

BoxBuzz wrote:It's always a bit disturbing when the nice lady with the medicine cart runs a bit late over at granberry's wing.

So-called 'moderator' buzz breaks his own "forum rules" for posting.

The ultimate hypocrite.

As all members of the walking army of media-indoctrinated clones are.

granberry wrote:

Diamond WEAPON wrote: Aaron Pryor's defense wasn't exactly top notch either, his wild style would occasionally lead him to getting blasted by flush shots, like the infamous one Arguello hit him with that snapped his head back like a bobblehead.

LOL

And here I thought Aaron Pryor knocked Arguello out TWICE.

But all the clueless newsmen, who always travel in a herd, wanted Arguello to win and disliked Pryor

so after their scenario blew up in their faces TWICE

the best they can come up with to justify their cluelessness is crap like the above.

wtf is your problem? I was talking about Pryor's defense, not the fight. I'm a huge fan of Pryor's, and the beatings he gave Arguello are actually a couple of of my favorite all time fights. That still doesn't mean he didn't leave himself wide open at times... hell it cost him 2 points for a knockdown against Akio Kameda when he got hit flush twice and put down in the 1st round that he otherwise likely wouldve won considering he wasn't hurt and sprang up immediately looking for revenge

granberry wrote:I just went to Google and put in Pryor Arguello under photos.

AS EXPECTED

there is not a single photo of Arguello knocked out.

But of course there are endless picture of Arguello throwing a punch at Pryor.

From the pictures you would think they were even fights.

This is the news media's technique when the crap they are instructed to sell goes up in flames.

IT NEVER HAPPENED.

NOT A SINGLE PHOTO of Arguello out cold.


That is the same procedure the stooge media follows with Frazier-Ali.

Frazier beat Ali and knocked Ali flat on his back.?

HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT !

HOW DARE YOU post a photo of Ali knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier !

boxrec 'moderator' buzz, thoroughly indoctrinated by the media's crap and talking points,

even posted that it was "defamation" to post photos of Ali knocked flat on his back by Frazier.

The best the sicko media can up with in their false presentation of Frazier-Ali is to continually show a picture of Ali throwing a punch at Frazier

while completely blacking out the fact that Frazier beat Ali thoroughly and knocked Ali flat on his back.

Here they go through the exact same routine with Pryor-Arguello.

Disgusting.

ebeneezer wrote:

granberry wrote:I just went to Google and put in Pryor Arguello under photos.

AS EXPECTED

there is not a single photo of Arguello knocked out.

But of course there are endless picture of Arguello throwing a punch at Pryor.

From the pictures you would think they were even fights.

This is the news media's technique when the crap they are instructed to sell goes up in flames.

IT NEVER HAPPENED.

NOT A SINGLE PHOTO of Arguello out cold.


That is the same procedure the stooge media follows with Frazier-Ali.

Frazier beat Ali and knocked Ali flat on his back.?

HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT !

HOW DARE YOU post a photo of Ali knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier !

boxrec 'moderator' buzz, thoroughly indoctrinated by the media's crap and talking points,

even posted that it was "defamation" to post photos of Ali knocked flat on his back by Frazier.

The best the sicko media can up with in their false presentation of Frazier-Ali is to continually show a picture of Ali throwing a punch at Frazier

while completely blacking out the fact that Frazier beat Ali thoroughly and knocked Ali flat on his back.

Here they go through the exact same routine with Pryor-Arguello.

Disgusting.

"Yeah, I'm biased towards a two time world champ because I'm from Mtl. True he was never on the same level as PBF or DLH and got schooled by them. I've never said he was the total package and an ATG. But if he's not a top fighter... Corrales, Castillo, Vargas, Trinidad, Judah, Forrest, and all the likes aren't either.

So it comes down to a pretty small list of A-level fighters and we end up arguing and wondering who's really out of place by saying JCC had a POOR defense..." - Jay

All of those fighters (to varying degrees) were better than Gatti, but we're not discussing them. You saw fit to add Trinidad to that list!? Gatti is on par with Trinidad, in your book? I'm trying to do the reasonable thing & give you the benefit of the doubt & chalk this up to a bit of cheerleading for Gatti on your part, but you seem insistent on showing a lack of boxing knowledge. Do you not know who Carnera & Rahman are? Is that why you persist in evading the question?

Arturo Gatti isn't a top fighter by any objective or knowledgeable persons measure. He was a good fighter, & probably a little undersold at times, but De La Hoya & Mayweather had two of the easiest nights of their careers against him. No shame in losing to those two, as they are more than simply top fighters of their day, but Gatti wasn't even competitive. Trinidad would've put Gatti's lights out at Welter, & I ask you to show me how you worked out these two men were on a par with each other. Only one is headed for the HOF, & rightly so.

This much, & one thing more --- Julio Cesar Chavez ate mountains of punches in his career. Like Frazier, he may've had good defensive technique for his style --- that doesn't mean he didn't get hit plenty. He did.

Jaywheel wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Does anyone else think Gatti's name looks out of place alongside fighters such as Arguello, Holyfield, Frazier, Chavez, & Armstrong, or am I alone? LOL.

But if he's not a top fighter... Corrales, Castillo, Vargas, Trinidad, Judah, Forrest, and all the likes aren't either.

quote]

I don't understand the above. Did Gatti beat any of the aformentioned? Did Gatti EVER beat a real world class fighter?

Goodnight, Irene wrote: but you seem insistent on showing a lack of boxing knowledge. Do you not know who Carnera & Rahman are? Is that why you persist in evading the question?

Are you talking about Rahman the guy who took 10 rounds to get rid of Zuri Lawrence whom Dominick Guinn(!!!) almost killed in less than 2? Because I name other fighters doesn’t mean I try and make believe they are all equal. But I do rank Gatti higher than Rahman.

Since the beginning of the thread, all I’m saying is you're picking on me for naming Gatti where you say nothing when Muhammad, Mayorga, Brewster and others are cited as top fighters. Maybe I did not understand the TOP part the same way you did but you certainly don’t understand the POOR part the same way as I.

BTW…

Gatti :
-TKO win vs Calvin Grove who KOed Jeff Fenech. Ever heard of him Irene?
-KO win vs Terron Millet who TKOed Vince Phillips
-KO vs Leonard Dorin who beat twice Raul Balbi and who was robbed and drew vs Paul Spadafora
-KO vs JJ Leija who beat twice Azumah Nelson and upset F.Bojado and H.Camacho jr when he was supposed to be a stepping stone for them

I have no problem with saying Gatti is an exciting B level fighter where HOFrs are usually A level fighters. Trinidad is of course above of Gatti. What are Zudah’s big accomplishments? His only big win is against Cory Spinks? Vargas won borderline and debatable decisions vs Wright and Quartey and got KTFO by Trinidad, DLH, Mosley and loss to Mayorga.

Implying I know nothing about boxing and keeping on naming JCC as a boxer with poor
defense makes me . Any boxer who fights over a 100 times at a lighter weight will eat lots of punches during his career, especially if he faces top contenders. Never heard of the best defense is a good offense? What about SRR? Poor defense I assume?

You (Irene) being relentless, laughing and dissing one boxer I name because he’s good but not top, fought great but isn’t great, is ridiculous. I could pick on you forever saying Holyfield and JCC didn’t have the best defense but certainly not a POOR one . If it were poor, Tyson, Lewis and Bowe would have KOed Holyfield everytime… Your dad is much stronger than mine and no one knows boxing like you.

"Are you talking about Rahman the guy who took 10 rounds to get rid of Zuri Lawrence whom Dominick Guinn(!!!) almost killed in less than 2? Because I name other fighters doesn’t mean I try and make believe they are all equal. But I do rank Gatti higher than Rahman.

Since the beginning of the thread, all I’m saying is you're picking on me for naming Gatti where you say nothing when Muhammad, Mayorga, Brewster and others are cited as top fighters. Maybe I did not understand the TOP part the same way you did but you certainly don’t understand the POOR part the same way as I.

BTW…

Gatti :
-TKO win vs Calvin Grove who KOed Jeff Fenech. Ever heard of him Irene?
-KO win vs Terron Millet who TKOed Vince Phillips
-KO vs Leonard Dorin who beat twice Raul Balbi and who was robbed and drew vs Paul Spadafora
-KO vs JJ Leija who beat twice Azumah Nelson and upset F.Bojado and H.Camacho jr when he was supposed to be a stepping stone for them

I have no problem with saying Gatti is an exciting B level fighter where HOFrs are usually A level fighters. Trinidad is of course above of Gatti. What are Zudah’s big accomplishments? His only big win is against Cory Spinks? Vargas won borderline and debatable decisions vs Wright and Quartey and got KTFO by Trinidad, DLH, Mosley and loss to Mayorga.

Implying I know nothing about boxing and keeping on naming JCC as a boxer with poor
defense makes me . Any boxer who fights over a 100 times at a lighter weight will eat lots of punches during his career, especially if he faces top contenders. Never heard of the best defense is a good offense? What about SRR? Poor defense I assume?

You (Irene) being relentless, laughing and dissing one boxer I name because he’s good but not top, fought great but isn’t great, is ridiculous. I could pick on you forever saying Holyfield and JCC didn’t have the best defense but certainly not a POOR one . If it were poor, Tyson, Lewis and Bowe would have KOed Holyfield everytime… Your dad is much stronger than mine and no one knows boxing like you." - Jaywheel

OK, so we've established that Gatti is (at best) a B level fighter, thus precluding him from, "top fighter" status. The remainder of your post is superfluous, as we now agree --- I was right, & you were wrong.

Of course. When a thread is named Top fighters who had poor defense, only the TOP part is relevant, the rest is superfluous.
Now I'm gonna go beat the shit out of Julio Cesar Chavez And Evander Holyfield, since they got such a poor defense...