BoxRec

Snipes beat Gerrie Coetzee

No he didn't. That decision was total and utter bullshit.

Robinson wrote:When Ali left the sport it was the beginning of the ABC gangs,
I mean lets be fair, its easy for us to assume that unifying the
belts is easy for a champion.

The reality is more 'belts' a fighter has, the more sanctioning
fee's he has to pay.

When Ali was champion he had ONE belt, ONE title to worry
about. No politics of the era..

I guess you missed Ali-Terrell. There were two belts in Ali's era, and Ali unified them.

Most of Holmes' title challengers were of poor quality or inexperienced. Seven guys with less than 17 fights. He should have lost to two of them. And he barely beat Norton to win the title, and Norton was 34. People pick on Tyson's title opponents, with justification, but Holmes' were not much better.

Robinson wrote:Furthermore ... I feel that the 80's were a very under-rated decade for heavyweights. Dokes , Page , Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams and Tony Tucker.

And Holmes failed to meet any of those men, besides Williams who he fought when Williams was 16-0. We all know how that fight went.

Big Bad John wrote:The Ruiz fights were close, and Holyfield went on to beat Hasim Rahman. I don't see how the comparison is valid. It wasn't until three years later, against Chris Byrd, that Holyfield lost conclusively. Norton was counting the lights not long after losing - very closely - to Holmes.

And by "many," I assume you mean "1/50 of."

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Norton that Holmes beat was better than the Holyfield that Lewis fought, or anyone that Lewis ever beat for that matter.

Yes Norton got crushed by Shavers' after that, but that was in part because he had nothing left after the Holmes fight. Norton had one last fight left in him when he fought Holmes.
I would also argue that it's less embarrassing losing to Shavers by knockout than losing to Ruiz by decision.
Just watch the holmes-Norton fight and either one of the Lewis-Holyfield fights. Holyfield had nothing in the first fight, and only fought in spurts in the 2nd fight. (Though he still should have got the decision.)
Norton was much better in his fight with Holmes than Holyfield was at any time after he fought Tyson.

What is more important is their fights before. Holyfield looked horrible against Vaugh Bean. Norton looked pretty good in a great fight against Jimmy Young.

Ambling Alp wrote:

Big Bad John wrote:The Ruiz fights were close, and Holyfield went on to beat Hasim Rahman. I don't see how the comparison is valid. It wasn't until three years later, against Chris Byrd, that Holyfield lost conclusively. Norton was counting the lights not long after losing - very closely - to Holmes.

And by "many," I assume you mean "1/50 of."

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Norton that Holmes beat was better than the Holyfield that Lewis fought, or anyone that Lewis ever beat for that matter.

Yes Norton got crushed by Shavers' after that, but that was in part because he had nothing left after the Holmes fight. Norton had one last fight left in him when he fought Holmes.
I would also argue that it's less embarrassing losing to Shavers by knockout than losing to Ruiz by decision.
Just watch the holmes-Norton fight and either one of the Lewis-Holyfield fights. Holyfield had nothing in the first fight, and only fought in spurts in the 2nd fight. (Though he still should have got the decision.)
Norton was much better in his fight with Holmes than Holyfield was at any time after he fought Tyson.

What is more important is their fights before. Holyfield looked horrible against Vaugh Bean. Norton looked pretty good in a great fight against Jimmy Young.

Good post.
The first Ruiz-Holyfield fight, despite it's ugliness, was not close at all . . Ruiz should've won something like an 8-4 decision. Holyfield after the Tyson rematch was a shadow of what he'd been. Losing to Earnie Shavers by knockout is 20 times less embarassing than struggling in any way with John Ruiz. Yes, I know a lot of current Heavyweights have struggled with Ruiz . . . . b/c they suck.

Ambling Alp wrote:

Big Bad John wrote:The Ruiz fights were close, and Holyfield went on to beat Hasim Rahman. I don't see how the comparison is valid. It wasn't until three years later, against Chris Byrd, that Holyfield lost conclusively. Norton was counting the lights not long after losing - very closely - to Holmes.

And by "many," I assume you mean "1/50 of."

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Norton that Holmes beat was better than the Holyfield that Lewis fought, or anyone that Lewis ever beat for that matter.

Yes Norton got crushed by Shavers' after that, but that was in part because he had nothing left after the Holmes fight. Norton had one last fight left in him when he fought Holmes.
I would also argue that it's less embarrassing losing to Shavers by knockout than losing to Ruiz by decision.
Just watch the holmes-Norton fight and either one of the Lewis-Holyfield fights. Holyfield had nothing in the first fight, and only fought in spurts in the 2nd fight. (Though he still should have got the decision.)
Norton was much better in his fight with Holmes than Holyfield was at any time after he fought Tyson.

What is more important is their fights before. Holyfield looked horrible against Vaugh Bean. Norton looked pretty good in a great fight against Jimmy Young.

Everyone looked horrible against Vaugh Bean. Teddy Atlas quit training Michael Moorer. More to the point, look at his three performances before the Bean fight, beating Michael Moorer and Mike Tyson by knockout! And let's be honest, Jimmy Young was really just an even more pussified version of John Ruiz. Or are you arguing that Jimmy Young happened to be in his last good fight as well, given that he never again had a win over a top heavyweight, and went on to lose two straight to Ocasio?

I Feel Fine wrote:

Robinson wrote:When Ali left the sport it was the beginning of the ABC gangs,
I mean lets be fair, its easy for us to assume that unifying the
belts is easy for a champion.

The reality is more 'belts' a fighter has, the more sanctioning
fee's he has to pay.

When Ali was champion he had ONE belt, ONE title to worry
about. No politics of the era..

I guess you missed Ali-Terrell. There were two belts in Ali's era, and Ali unified them.

Most of Holmes' title challengers were of poor quality or inexperienced. Seven guys with less than 17 fights. He should have lost to two of them. And he barely beat Norton to win the title, and Norton was 34. People pick on Tyson's title opponents, with justification, but Holmes' were not much better.

Robinson wrote:Furthermore ... I feel that the 80's were a very under-rated decade for heavyweights. Dokes , Page , Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams and Tony Tucker.

And Holmes failed to meet any of those men, besides Williams who he fought when Williams was 16-0. We all know how that fight went.

Ummm, no biggie here, but , this post ( as just above ) was mine , not Robinsons.

stop talking about ruiz

I am a Holmes fan but he did miss out on a number of challengers. He also foguth a lot of inexeprienced guys and didn't give rematches in the close fights.

Holmes was a survivor though and often in a messy fashion, but survive he did...

I sometimes wonder if Holyfield isn't underrated. He was a phenomenal fighter who was past his best by the time he got to the big names. the rematches with Bowe and Lewis are very praiseworthy performances.

Big Bad John wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:

Big Bad John wrote:The Ruiz fights were close, and Holyfield went on to beat Hasim Rahman. I don't see how the comparison is valid. It wasn't until three years later, against Chris Byrd, that Holyfield lost conclusively. Norton was counting the lights not long after losing - very closely - to Holmes.

And by "many," I assume you mean "1/50 of."

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Norton that Holmes beat was better than the Holyfield that Lewis fought, or anyone that Lewis ever beat for that matter.

Yes Norton got crushed by Shavers' after that, but that was in part because he had nothing left after the Holmes fight. Norton had one last fight left in him when he fought Holmes.
I would also argue that it's less embarrassing losing to Shavers by knockout than losing to Ruiz by decision.
Just watch the holmes-Norton fight and either one of the Lewis-Holyfield fights. Holyfield had nothing in the first fight, and only fought in spurts in the 2nd fight. (Though he still should have got the decision.)
Norton was much better in his fight with Holmes than Holyfield was at any time after he fought Tyson.

What is more important is their fights before. Holyfield looked horrible against Vaugh Bean. Norton looked pretty good in a great fight against Jimmy Young.

Everyone looked horrible against Vaugh Bean. Teddy Atlas quit training Michael Moorer. More to the point, look at his three performances before the Bean fight, beating Michael Moorer and Mike Tyson by knockout! And let's be honest, Jimmy Young was really just an even more pussified version of John Ruiz. Or are you arguing that Jimmy Young happened to be in his last good fight as well, given that he never again had a win over a top heavyweight, and went on to lose two straight to Ocasio?

Holyfield had his best wouldn't have looked horrible against Vaughn Bean.
Jimmy Young and John Ruiz aren't remotely comparable. Young was a much, much better fighter.
Some fighters do have one last great fight and then slip considerably.
Young's was against Norton. Norton's was against Holmes.
Holyfield's was against Tyson. He looked good but not great against Moorer. (He was flat in the early rounds.) He declined further in the Bean fight.

Holyfield looked a little better in the 2nd fight against Lewis, but he still wasn't close to being the fighter than he once was.
Norton fought one of his best fights against Holmes.
Watch Norton-Holmes and then either of the Lewis-Holyfield fights. It's not even close. Holmes had a much better opponent that he had to beat.

Holyfield did have his bad days too. I mean, you're complaining about him looking bad against Vaughn Bean after beating Moorer and Tyson twice. He looked bad in the first Moorer fight and the third Bowe fight as well.