BoxRec

Posted: **15 Jul 2008, 19:22**

Morales is overrated. At 126, he didn't do much. At 130, he lost more than he won. And at 122, he didn't really face that many great fighters. He's no Marco Antonio Barrera.

Posted: **15 Jul 2008, 19:38**

Big Bad John wrote:Morales is overrated. At 126, he didn't do much. At 130, he lost more than he won. And at 122, he didn't really face that many great fighters. He's no Marco Antonio Barrera.

Damnit, NAME A NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :x :x

Posted: **15 Jul 2008, 21:51**

Morales is not overrated. He fought and beat the best. Barrera and Pacquiao won their trilogies against him, but they were the best fighters of his era in those weight classes, and he still managed to score wins over them, and Pacquiao caught him when he was declining. As did Raheem and Diaz.

Sandy Saddler

Posted: **16 Jul 2008, 00:53**

My2sense, you have every right to chastize me. I haven't been playing well with others at all, despite my great respect for this forum.

Sandy Saddler is underrated. You could really make a case that he's one of the 10 greatest fighters of all time, pound-for-pound, beating Willie Pep three times, casually holding titles at 126 and 130 simultaniously, with his only losses coming at 135, when he was still really a featherweight. Lightweights and jr. welterweights were felled at his hands. With a jackrabbit promoter, he could've been a Sugar Ray Leonard or a Joe Louis.

Lennox Lewis

Posted: **16 Jul 2008, 02:22**

Big Bad John wrote:Lennox Lewis

All the time he was fighting, he was underrated.

But since he's retired, I think he may have actually become a bit overrated.

I say this because I see so much longing for Lewis since he retired. Everytime there's a stinker of a heavyweight championship fight, one of the first responses I often hear is, "Damn, I miss Lennox Lewis." I admit, I even find myself saying that too from time to time. But that's selective memory. Those people (and myself) sometimes forget that Lewis himself turned in quite a few stinkers in his career, and although he always showed enormous potential, he never really distinguished himself as a great heavyweight until the late stages of his career.

Next entry: Jack Johnson.

Posted: **16 Jul 2008, 02:30**

What I often hear about Jack Johnson is that he had a very "modern" defense, but that begs the question, "which modern fighter has a defense like Jack Johnson?" In another thread, we were talking about the handspeed of Floyd Patterson, Muhammad Ali, Roy Jones and Mike Tyson, but NONE of them used their hands as well as Jack Johnson did. Really, only Niccolino Locche, Willie Pep and a few others compare when it comes to blocking punches with the hands. Johnson wasn't 20 years ahead of his time; he was timeless.

Jersey Joe Walcott

Posted: **16 Jul 2008, 03:03**

Big Bad John wrote:Jersey Joe Walcott

Underrated.

People were quick to dismiss Joe Louis as being a shell of his former self after seeing his fights with Walcott, but that's not doing justice to what Walcott did in those fights to frustrate him. I think many people are more familiar with Walcott in his later fights with Charles and Marciano, and don't realize what great footwork he had back in his prime, which was when he fought Louis. But even after that footspeed was long gone, he was still able to beat Charles twice and gave Marciano hell in their first fight. I think if Marciano fought the Walcott that fought Louis, the result might well have been different.

Next entry: Jerry Quarry.

Posted: **16 Jul 2008, 03:17**

Louis was 33 and 34 and had only fought two fights since coming back from his very long stint in the army. It's not as if Louis didn't knock Walcott out in the rematch, imagine if Louis had been younger. Charles should have won the fourth fight by most accounts. Still, I wouldn't so much call Walcott overrated.

Quarry is underrated. He was a very good fighter and did some pretty impressive things, but he was stuck in the deepest era in Heavyweight history where a lot of talented boxers were not able to win the Heavyweight title. He's not as underrated as some other fights, but I would put him in that category.

Ray Mancini

Posted: **16 Jul 2008, 15:27**

Probably just a little underrated. His defense was poor, and he only had 29 wins, but he always came to fight, and he beat Jose Luis Ramirez, led Arguello till about the 10th round, and gave a good account himself against Camacho. More than anything I'd say he's popular for being exciting in the ring, and personable outside it.

NEXT
Joe Frazier

Posted: **16 Jul 2008, 16:17**

On this forum Frazier is overrated, in general he's badly underrated, in my opinion. He's probably about as good as the Marciano's and the Holmes', but he'll never be rated as high as them because, like Quarry, he fought in probably the deepest division in Heavyweight history and so he couldn't just dominate every opponent he faced. But he had nine defenses, beat a lot of good opponents, unified the division, gave Ali his toughest fights and won 1/3, and the only fighter who he never managed to do anything with was Foreman, but we all know that was a difficult style matchup for Frazier.

Nino Benvenutti

Posted: **16 Jul 2008, 18:20**

Underrated by many due to being overlooked by Monzon.

Kalambay sumbu

Posted: **16 Jul 2008, 20:03**

Sumbu Kalambay

I think he is underrated by many. He had some great wins on his resume. He gave McCallum and Graham their first loss and defeated a prime Barkley. Sadly he is more remembered for his loss to Nunn.

Next: Carlos Ortiz

Posted: **17 Jul 2008, 12:31**

Very Underrated. Sure he's in the IBHOF, but how often do you hear is name mentioned during a fight broadcast, or see an article about him in a boxing magazine ? This guy Ko'd Sugar Ramos and Flash Elorde twice, beat Ismael Laguna twice by decision, along with Duilio Loi, Joe Brown and host of top contenders like Kenny Lane twice, Dave Charnley, Battling Torres etc, AND he went down from being the JWW champion and won the LW title. In my opinion he's Puerto Rico's greatest fighter ever.

NEXT
Earl Mastro

Posted: **17 Jul 2008, 15:18**

Seamus wrote:Very Underrated. Sure he's in the IBHOF, but how often do you hear is name mentioned during a fight broadcast, or see an article about him in a boxing magazine ? This guy Ko'd Sugar Ramos and Flash Elorde twice, beat Ismael Laguna twice by decision, along with Duilio Loi, Joe Brown and host of top contenders like Kenny Lane twice, Dave Charnley, Battling Torres etc, AND he went down from being the JWW champion and won the LW title. In my opinion he's Puerto Rico's greatest fighter ever.

NEXT
Earl Mastro

Definitely underrated

He beat the Great Bambino hisself and had an exciting three bout series with a young Fidel Castro.......

NEXT

Rocky Graziano

Posted: **17 Jul 2008, 16:36**

Ignore the above post. ^^^

Earl Mastro was overrated. He was a tough, exciting bantamweight, but he really only got the attention he got because he was Jewish. In boxing and wrestling, being "white" or even "American" didn't mean that much. It was being "ethnic" that really mattered. Even in the early 1980s, Vince McMahon wanted to give Hulk Hogan red hair and make him Irish. Jack Dempsey wasn't a white champ or an American champ, he was an Irish-American champ. That's what mattered. Being Greek, Italian, even French - helped matters. No one'd ever seen a Jewish bantamweight, so he was something different.

Willie Pep

Posted: **18 Jul 2008, 00:18**

Ignore the above post...

Posted: **18 Jul 2008, 02:07**

Big Bad John wrote:Ignore the above post. ^^^

Earl Mastro was overrated. He was a tough, exciting bantamweight, but he really only got the attention he got because he was Jewish. In boxing and wrestling, being "white" or even "American" didn't mean that much. It was being "ethnic" that really mattered. Even in the early 1980s, Vince McMahon wanted to give Hulk Hogan red hair and make him Irish. Jack Dempsey wasn't a white champ or an American champ, he was an Irish-American champ. That's what mattered. Being Greek, Italian, even French - helped matters. No one'd ever seen a Jewish bantamweight, so he was something different.

Willie Pep

Ridiculous post.

Dempsey was viewed as an Irish-American champ?

On a subject you know a lot about, the wwe, do you think Hornswaggle is over or under rated as an entertainer?

Posted: **18 Jul 2008, 02:52**

Big Bad John wrote:Willie Pep

I suppose if I have to choose one, I will say that he's overrated, if for no other reason that there are people that still insist he was better than Saddler based on pre-conceived notions of both of them.

Next up: Jake LaMotta.

Posted: **18 Jul 2008, 10:22**

My2Sense wrote:
Big Bad John wrote:Willie Pep
I suppose if I have to choose one, I will say that he's overrated, if for no other reason that there are people that still insist he was better than Saddler based on pre-conceived notions of both of them.

Next up: Jake LaMotta.

over-rated for fairly obvious reasons.

next: Hector Camacho

Posted: **18 Jul 2008, 10:48**

Counter-puncher wrote:
My2Sense wrote:
Big Bad John wrote:Willie Pep
I suppose if I have to choose one, I will say that he's overrated, if for no other reason that there are people that still insist he was better than Saddler based on pre-conceived notions of both of them.

Next up: Jake LaMotta.
over-rated for fairly obvious reasons.

next: Hector Camacho is fighting again

Posted: **18 Jul 2008, 10:52**

Camacho was already picked on the first page, but this time I'll give my opinion. He's probably a little underrated. He may have been one of the best JLW's of all time, then moved up and proved his durability by lasting 36 rds against a prime Chavez, DeLaHoya and Trinidad. He did have a few performances where he looked a little contact shy, but mixed it up with opponents on more than enough occasions to prove his meddle.

Two others that were mentioned.

Rocky Graziano. Get's deserved credit for being part of the greatest trilogy in the history of the sport, and was a very exciting fighter, but realistically he probably isn't even a top 15 MW of alltime. So, I'd put him at overrated.

Willie Pep. Does get alot of deserved credit, but when you take the plane crash into consideration, he may well have been heading for the title of greatest ever. 108-1-1 before the crash says it all. So, he's just a little underrated.

NEXT
James J Braddock

Posted: **18 Jul 2008, 11:57**

Seamus wrote:Camacho was already picked on the first page, but this time I'll give my opinion. He's probably a little underrated. He may have been one of the best JLW's of all time, then moved up and proved his durability by lasting 36 rds against a prime Chavez, DeLaHoya and Trinidad. He did have a few performances where he looked a little contact shy, but mixed it up with opponents on more than enough occasions to prove his meddle.

Two others that were mentioned.

Rocky Graziano. Get's deserved credit for being part of the greatest trilogy in the history of the sport, and was a very exciting fighter, but realistically he probably isn't even a top 15 MW of alltime. So, I'd put him at overrated.

Willie Pep. Does get alot of deserved credit, but when you take the plane crash into consideration, he may well have been heading for the title of greatest ever. 108-1-1 before the crash says it all. So, he's just a little underrated.

NEXT
James J Braddock

Sorry for sloffing your pick of Earl Mastro but the guy has to be a virtual unknown. So the guy appears on a 1930 cover of The Ring but you'll find it hard to find him on any top Jewish fighters list. IMO, it's impossible to make any appreciable judgment on the guy.

Braddock was definitely the best of his era. Imposing guy at 6' 2" 220lb he could use his weight and surprising stamina to defeat smaller but more skilled opponents such as Bob Fitzsimmons and James Corbett, the very guy who probably taught Jeffries the most about boxing. But was he among the greatest of all time as so many list have him? I would say yes because it appears that Jeffries would have been great in any era. Still, he's rated too high in most lists so he's over rated.

Next.

Arturo Gatti

Posted: **18 Jul 2008, 12:31**

Arturo Gatti is overrated. Yes he delighted us with wonderful wars and very exciting matches. His personality along with his exciting fights made people overrate him. With all due respect his skills were very limited and his defense was one of the worst that I have ever seen. Not HOF material in my opinion. However, he was one of the most exciting fighters of late 90’s and early 2000’s. His trilogy vs Micky ward are great and the two fights vs Ivan Robinson. Very exciting fighter but really lack the skills to be an elite fighter. He was badly outclassed by DLH and Mayweather.

Next: Wilfredo Vazquez

Posted: **18 Jul 2008, 16:18**

Um, I don't know what's happened to this thread, but getting back on track...

Terry D wrote: Carmen Basillo.

Underrated. It took a while for him to put all his tools together, but his potential had been evident for some time before that. In one of his first big fights ever, he floored the great Kid Gavilan (something almost impossible to do) and gave him hell all the way. Gavilan was never eager to give him a rematch. At the height of his career, he had very good technical skill, a damn good punch (as Jonny Saxton found out in their 3rd fight), and one of the best chins of any welterweight ever (he was never knocked down at that weight). He clinched his legacy when he went up in weight and upset Robinson, who was past his prime, but was still thought to be simply too big and powerful for a blown up welter like Basilio. As a further indication of Basilio's ability, he was favored to beat Fullmer in their first fight, and Fullmer had to box his heart out in order to beat him.

OK, now back to Wilfredo Vasquez.

Posted: **18 Jul 2008, 21:49**

Borinken25 wrote:Arturo Gatti is overrated. Yes he delighted us with wonderful wars and very exciting matches. His personality along with his exciting fights made people overrate him. With all due respect his skills were very limited and his defense was one of the worst that I have ever seen. Not HOF material in my opinion. However, he was one of the most exciting fighters of late 90’s and early 2000’s. His trilogy vs Micky ward are great and the two fights vs Ivan Robinson. Very exciting fighter but really lack the skills to be an elite fighter. He was badly outclassed by DLH and Mayweather.

Next: Wilfredo Vazquez

Hard to say. No one really thinks of him that much now outside of Puerto Rico. For a three-division titlist, 18-3 in title fights, he didn't get that much love from the American media, even in his prime. Normally, I say that every Puerto Rican fighter Borinken brings up is overrated, simply because he overrates them. But I'm going to say that he's underrated, and a potential future member of the IBHOF. Let's look at his major competition:

Naseem Hamed: Future IBHOF member, hisself. Vazquez hung in there, but he lost every round before getting knocked out in the seventh
Eloy Rojas: A true journeyman champion. His six successful WBA title defenses took place in five different nations.
Antonio Cermeno: Cermeno was a very good fighter who happened to run into Freddie Norwood when he moved up to 126.
Orlando Canizales: Huge win for Vazquez, against the top bantamweight.
Juan Polo Perez: Former jr. flyweight champion. Future professional punching bag.
Raul Perez: A 5'10" bantamweight (!) and longstanding bantamweight/super bantamweight champion. Perez won their first bout by decision, and Vazquez stopped him in the rematch when a title was on the line.
Khaokor Galaxy: The lesser Galaxy twin. And a controversial decision; Vazquez was a heavy favorite among the betting world, but Khaokor was a heavy fan favorite in Thailand, where the bout took place.
Park Chan-young: Short-lived titlist who Vazquez stopped.
Miguel Lora: Happy Lora was a top bantamweight in his prime, and he beat Vazquez in an exciting bout.

I mean, yeah. You can make an outside argument that he could be in the Hall, but I wouldn't really buy it. That's a lot better than people remember him today, though.

Joe Jeanette

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