BoxRec

Graham
Watson
Brodie
Schwer
Oliver
Ashley
Francis
Kelly
Eamonn Magee
Floyd Havard

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Think the poster was very harsh in labelling Woodhall an average boxer.... why not add the likes of Bruno, Rob Reid, Matthews, and I would even add Witter to such a list.

Arbachakov wrote:That's oversimplifying things though.For one thing, he was a shot fighter when he fought Charles Brewer.

And Kalambay and McCallum were much better fighters than jackson.kalambay was the best middleweight in Europe for about five\six years and neither Benn, nor Eubank went anywhere near him.Suddenly the traditional route to a world title was abandoned for WBO bullshit.

Bomber for me and this is a good defence of him.

He was past it and still nearly beat Brewer. McCallum is an all-time great and Herol came very close. Kalambay was much better than people thought, Bomber underperformed dreadfully in my hazy memory and still came close.

And as for Jackson...ye Gods.

I'd go Laing. By 1990 he had real experience to go with his class and power, and picked up the European title with a crushing second-round dismissal of Frenchman Antoine Fernandez at Wembley. Given home turf Laing would have licked Mark Breland in 1990 for the world title, in my opinion, and Simon Brown and Starling, too.
A faded Honeyghan got the Breland shot instead.

Fidel Castro Smith has gotta be up there...his record is deceiving.

jesus, how many times can this question be asked on this forum???

Michael watson
Michael brodie

junior witter beat dean francis in the amauters too
but anyway herol graham by a long long way

Riddick Blowe wrote:jesus, how many times can this question be asked on this forum???

Well i get bored with the Roman Greenburg one

Michael Watson, Mark Reefer, Kirkland Laing, Jim McDonnell, Pat Barrett. Andy Holligan.

Herol Graham
Michael Watson
Howard Eastman
Michael Brodie

Okay slightly vary the topic... forget about achievements and performances in World class. Which fighters from the last 20 years did you think at any stage - "fornicate me he's going to be a world champion" but then never really remotely got close in terms of achievement.

I would nominate Patrick Mullings... at one period he looked the business.

Bomber Graham is the cliche...but frankly I think he's overrated. He got beat clearly by Kalambay for euro (twice) , McCallum for WBA (closer but with home advantage), ironed flat by a one-eyed Julian Jackson and Ko'd by Frank Grant (average Brit champ) and Brewer (av World champ.)

Basically he wasn't good enough. 3 tries for world champion and failures at Euro and Brit champs...

Sorry I don't buy it.

Colin Jones (beat laing twice and lost split and draw against Milt McCrory) and Billy Hardy (not the most talented world level fighter but lost a decision he deserved against ATG Canizales) ar ebetter bets.

I understand the notion behind this thread.

Nowadays fighters win what we may or may not consider valid versions of a title.

How can anyone compare Gavin Rees to Herol Graham, Kirkland Laing, Michael Watson, Colin Jones etc.?

If you want to take the lowest common denominator and assess the relative meriits of all the fighters in this thread then they would all have a shout.

I agree with E about Graham too. Lots of talent but with a negative switch off attitude that never particularly marked him out, for me, as a standout fighter on the world stage at that time. Unfortunately for many of the fighters mentioned above the same situation applies.

SticknMove wrote:I understand the notion behind this thread.

Nowadays fighters win what we may or may not consider valid versions of a title.

How can anyone compare Gavin Rees to Herol Graham, Kirkland Laing, Michael Watson, Colin Jones etc.?

If you want to take the lowest common denominator and assess the relative meriits of all the fighters in this thread then they would all have a shout.

I agree with E about Graham too. Lots of talent but with a negative switch off attitude that never particularly marked him out, for me, as a standout fighter on the world stage at that time. Unfortunately for many of the fighters mentioned above the same situation applies.

Yeah just shows how timing and circumstance are important.

Graham, Laing and Jones could've won a world championship against the right person on the right night. They didn't but Rees did. Watson was close but not good enough - 3 tries an no success. But close.

Not really sure there is anything to buy regarding Graham being worthy in the context of this thread.It's not like he's up against a murderers row.I wouldn't hold the losses after Jackson against him; he was a shot fighter with no punch resistance left.

It's quite remarkable he had any success at all on his comeback.

On the other hand, as far as him often being called the best British fighter never to win a world title, i would agree he's a dubious choice for that accolade.

As an aside, Jones is one guy who i think would have done really well had he been around recently.he wasn't a great fighter, but not many that held the Welter title since the '90s have been either and he matches up very well with most of them.

Not many great Welters since the 90's.... sorry but DLH and Mosley might disagree and Sweet Pea.

He might have been the only fighter to manage to hurt Margarito mind!

E wrote:Bomber Graham is the cliche...but frankly I think he's overrated. He got beat clearly by Kalambay for euro (twice) , McCallum for WBA (closer but with home advantage), ironed flat by a one-eyed Julian Jackson and Ko'd by Frank Grant (average Brit champ) and Brewer (av World champ.)

Basically he wasn't good enough. 3 tries for world champion and failures at Euro and Brit champs...

Sorry I don't buy it.

Colin Jones (beat laing twice and lost split and draw against Milt McCrory) and Billy Hardy (not the most talented world level fighter but lost a decision he deserved against ATG Canizales) ar ebetter bets.

Herol didn't seem to have a positive enough attitude to go with the tricky style, I agree. There always seemed to be some problem that he brought into a fight, and there was always some reason why he fell short.

However I thought he won the 2nd Kalambay clearly enough, because Graham dropped him a couple of times.

Kalambay 1 and McCallum were very evenly matched fights, yet the visitors seemed to want it that extra bit more.

stujones wrote:Not many great Welters since the 90's.... sorry but DLH and Mosley might disagree and Sweet Pea.

He might have been the only fighter to manage to hurt Margarito mind!

Those three were all from the nineties crop more or less.

I was thinking more of Spinks, Mayorga, Judah, Cotto and so on.

Speaking of welters, I hear that Michael Jennings is Paul Williams' mandatory!

Autobarn wrote:Speaking of welters, I hear that Michael Jennings is Paul Williams' mandatory!

Excellent news.

Autobarn wrote:Speaking of welters, I hear that Michael Jennings is Paul Williams' mandatory!

That's great news, I'm a huge fan of Jennings. If only he could bang.

Terrific little fighter, great energy. Lovely bloke.

stujones wrote:Okay slightly vary the topic... forget about achievements and performances in World class. Which fighters from the last 20 years did you think at any stage - "eff me he's going to be a world champion" but then never really remotely got close in terms of achievement.

I would nominate Patrick Mullings... at one period he looked the business.

I thought Colin McMillan would go on and box far above the level he did.

Not the best, that award goes to Graham without any doubt from me, but I always thought Vanzie had the ability to mix it in world class, pity he wasnt given the push in his prime and a pity he wasnt steered away from the young up and comer in Romanov. Then the 2 Earl robberies finnished him off

E wrote:Bomber Graham is the cliche...but frankly I think he's overrated. He got beat clearly by Kalambay for euro (twice) , McCallum for WBA (closer but with home advantage), ironed flat by a one-eyed Julian Jackson and Ko'd by Frank Grant (average Brit champ) and Brewer (av World champ.)

Basically he wasn't good enough. 3 tries for world champion and failures at Euro and Brit champs...

Sorry I don't buy it.

Colin Jones (beat laing twice and lost split and draw against Milt McCrory) and Billy Hardy (not the most talented world level fighter but lost a decision he deserved against ATG Canizales) ar ebetter bets.

you dont know what your on about do you.the first kalambay fight was very close the 2nd herol got robbed big time,McCallum was a split he got a point knock of or it would have been a draw and to beat up and then get knockout by a punch what would have knockout anybody is not as bad as your making out.he was dead at the weight for grant and had one just about every round till he ran out of gas and dont forget he knock down brewer twice(calazage Could not do that)before is old legs gave in.he was good enough he was just unlucky

SOUTHPAW wrote:

E wrote:Bomber Graham is the cliche...but frankly I think he's overrated. He got beat clearly by Kalambay for euro (twice) , McCallum for WBA (closer but with home advantage), ironed flat by a one-eyed Julian Jackson and Ko'd by Frank Grant (average Brit champ) and Brewer (av World champ.)

Basically he wasn't good enough. 3 tries for world champion and failures at Euro and Brit champs...

Sorry I don't buy it.

Colin Jones (beat laing twice and lost split and draw against Milt McCrory) and Billy Hardy (not the most talented world level fighter but lost a decision he deserved against ATG Canizales) ar ebetter bets.

you dont know what your on about do you.the first kalambay fight was very close the 2nd herol got robbed big time,McCallum was a split he got a point knock of or it would have been a draw and to beat up and then get knockout by a punch what would have knockout anybody is not as bad as your making out.he was dead at the weight for grant and had one just about every round till he ran out of gas and dont forget he knock down brewer twice(calazage Could not do that)before is old legs gave in.he was good enough he was just unlucky

Sorry Jones is a better bet for me.