My Olympic experience.

[laidir]

JMac would you advocate a return to the old scoring system i.e. 20 points to the round winner? It would be an interesting experiment to use the old system by 5 judges at the same time as the computer. To see basically what the results would be. There is a general attitude here that computer scoring always give the correct result. I am not so sure. Now of course the coaches get the round by round scores in championships which can really affect the boxing in a bout. That would still prevail if the old system scoring was handed out but my feeling is that the individualism of the judge would allow him to score body shots more freely.

[boxmel]

JMac would you advocate a return to the old scoring system i.e. 20 points to the round winner?

I'm going to throw in my two cents, but I know Jim will add his, too. The old 20-point must system has no checks and balances and no accountability. In other words, a judge can 20-19 someone to a win on their card without counting ANY blows, let alone body shots. There is no way to tell what a judge is counting with manual scoring. The plus, for me, with the computer scoring is that you can SEE on the computer monitor every time a judge pushes the buttons for each boxer. You KNOW what each judge is doing. I don't know about the new system, but the old one used in the U.S. printed out a report showing each judges individual and accepted scores and had a cheating report built in. We could also run a trace report which documented the time in the round each judge pushed the button.

I don't think the problem is with the current scoring system. I think it's with the people pushing the buttons.

[JMac]

Yes, the scoring system sucks and needs to be changes radically or removed!!!

Do you mind taking some time to state what you think needs to be changed? I'm guessing that the IOC will not allow AIBA to drop the ESS - how would you fix it? (AIBA has already stated they are working on changes.)

After the '88 Olympics and what happened there, I was happy to see change. When the electroic scoring system came out, it looked like a decent system that held judges accountable. I remember when it would print out a trace of every second of the bout and you could see who pushed what and when and if you wanted you could go back to the tape of the bout and compare.
Now it has changed to a printout of each judge with their total and accepted scores and the 2nd page has if you got cautions or warnings according to the 3 criteria used to evaluate the judges. They also have what Choudhry used to call the "spy camera" which is a tape of the bout from one angle. At the bottom it had who the five judges were and it would light up red and blue when they pushed their buttons and it has the total and accepted scores of each judge. It all sounds good but the reality is when you have humans involved in a subjecive sport, cheating can occur no matter what system is used. What I hate most about the ESS is that it has changed the way boxers box! Combinations do not get counted and from the way this most recent Olympics went, it looks like jabs and body punches rarely get counted. Boxers who are counterpunchers have the best style for the ESS. They move around, let you attack them and they counter with a big hook or cross and it is easy to see and it gets counted. If a boxer is not moving and countering, they are going for head shots with a cross and then they grab and hold and wrestle. Very boring to watch.

So what can be done? I'm not exactly sure but something needs to happen fast. IOC President Jaques Rogue was sitting next to Wu during the semi finals when there were two back to back bouts that I felt set the sport back 50 years. The 1st one was the 64 kg THA boxer Boonjumnog against the Cuban Iglesias. The Thai kept holding the Cubans arms and finally the Cuban lower'd his head and then brought it back up against the Thai's chin knocking him to the ground. The Thai boxer deserved a warning for the holding but the Cuban should have been DQ'd. The ref only gave a warning to the Cuban and the rest of the bout turned into a really ugly match.
Then it was followed with the Vastine-Diaz bout. Vastine was really dramatic with the crying and I can't say I balme him. When he got out of the ring he laid on the floor for like 10 minutes crying. I don't think these bouts endeared Rogue or any fan to Olympic boxing. The next day which was the 1st day of the finals, there were only 5 bouts and the last two were absolutly horrible as well. The middle weight bout between Great Britain boxer Degale and the Cuban Correa was a wrestling bout that the ref lost control over. It was ugly and then followed by the Hwt match between Itallian Russo and Russian Chakhkiev which was another ugly wrestling match that ended 4-2. They were painful to watch.
If this is what amateur boxing on the Olympic stage is going to look like, we might as well chuck it in. I rather watch synchronize swimming which I think is the most ridiculous sport in the Olympics.
So back to the question, what do we do?
Wu seems to have the IOC (which is a member of) believing that he is cleaning up the sport. I like to think that he has started the job but more house cleaning is in order. At this point, I am not opposed to going back to the old 20 pt system. The problem in the past was corrupt officials. After ESS came in, there were still plenty of corrupt officials. I used to say when Chaudhry was President, a blind man could see who was cheating. They didn't hide it. Now under Wu, they have to be a little slicker. Find them and get rid of them. I can tell you that many if not most of the honest officials who worked in Beijing have said they are done as R/J's. That is not encouraging.
We have to get boxing back to an exciting style that will bring the fans back. As I said in one of my earlier post in this thread, the few bouts in Beijing were both boxers stood and banged were the ones that got the crowd the most excited except when a Chinese boxer was in the ring.
I have heard that people in AIBA are looking into different ways to score the bouts but I have doubts. Under the old 20 pt system, we were supposed to count punches as well. Every 3 punches counted as a point. Winner of the round got 20 and if the other boxer scored say 3 less punches, he got 19. But who knows what they really scored. Even with clickers that we use in the US, lets say a judge has 8-4 at the end of the round when he looks at his clicker but he thinks in his mind it is closer, nothing is stoping him from writing down 8-6 or 8-7. I know he is not supposed to do it but maybe in his mind he was taking into account some of the defense or ring generalship, etc. It could and may happen.
I guess what I am saying is that what we are doing now is not working, and no matter what we use, people can always find a way to cheat. So let's put more into scoring like defense, ring generalship, aggresivness, etc. Why not? Yes it might be scored more like pro boxing but the times have changed. I don't think amateur boxing has to do everything it can to show why they are different from pro boxing. The AMA has back off on trying to get amateur boxing banned. We need to get kids interested in being boxers again like after the '76 Olympics. We need to get fans back interested in the sport because after the last few Olympics we lost lots and lots of them.

[JMac]

JMac would you advocate a return to the old scoring system i.e. 20 points to the round winner? It would be an interesting experiment to use the old system by 5 judges at the same time as the computer. To see basically what the results would be. There is a general attitude here that computer scoring always give the correct result. I am not so sure. Now of course the coaches get the round by round scores in championships which can really affect the boxing in a bout. That would still prevail if the old system scoring was handed out but my feeling is that the individualism of the judge would allow him to score body shots more freely.

I was writing my rsponse to a similar question from Mel when you posted this. Yes at this point, I think we should try the old 20 pt system again because the ESS is not working and though Mel says you are more accountable which is what I liked about ESS, I have rarely seen anybody booted from an international tournament for cheating. Even if the 20 pt system is used, you can still see when someone is trying to be political with their judging.
What I also hate most about the coaches knowing the score under the current system is the running and holding in the last round when the boxer has the lead. In the Olympics, it looked like almost no boxer who was losing the last round got any points even when they landed a clean shot. It takes out the chance for coming back in the last round unles you KO'd them. If you go back and look at who won the 1st round, I bet it is over 90% of them went on to win the bout.

[boxmel]

Even if the 20 pt system is used, you can still see when someone is trying to be political with their judging.

Yes (as evidenced in the RJJ bout in 1988) but by that time, it's too late and the wrong boxer has been declared the winner. Yes, the same thing happens with the ESS, I suppose, but you have concrete proof of how a judge is "leaning" and can suspend that judge so he can't cause any more problems. With the 20-point must, you could be the 1 on a 4-1 and be asked what you saw. All you had to say is that's what you saw - which is no answer at all and there was no way to determine whether or not you were actively cheating - or guessing, in case you weren't trained. And I agree with you about the clickers. Very easy to change your mind at the end of the round/bout and put down something other than actually shown as the total.

What I also hate most about the coaches knowing the score under the current system is the running and holding in the last round when the boxer has the lead.

Awful, boring, frustrating.

If you go back and look at who won the 1st round, I bet it is over 90% of them went on to win the bout.

Maybe I'm off base, but I always tell the boxers that they have to start throwing punches in the first round - that if they get behind, it's very hard to catch up - especially with the computer. Your thoughts?

[JMac]

Even if the 20 pt system is used, you can still see when someone is trying to be political with their judging.

Yes (as evidenced in the RJJ bout in 1988) but by that time, it's too late and the wrong boxer has been declared the winner. Yes, the same thing happens with the ESS, I suppose, but you have concrete proof of how a judge is "leaning" and can suspend that judge so he can't cause any more problems. With the 20-point must, you could be the 1 on a 4-1 and be asked what you saw. All you had to say is that's what you saw - which is no answer at all and there was no way to determine whether or not you were actively cheating - or guessing, in case you weren't trained. And I agree with you about the clickers. Very easy to change your mind at the end of the round/bout and put down something other than actually shown as the total.

It's not too late. They should have overturned the Roy Jones decision when they found out judges took a bribe. The current Swiss timing system does not put out the second by second trace, only what I explained above so it's not much different from the old score cards used for 20 pt. If you are on a 4-1 with ESS and asked why, you can just as easliy say that's what you saw. It really is not that different from the current "so called" evidence. If somebody is cheating under the 20 pt, it can be detected.

If you go back and look at who won the 1st round, I bet it is over 90% of them went on to win the bout.

Maybe I'm off base, but I always tell the boxers that they have to start throwing punches in the first round - that if they get behind, it's very hard to catch up - especially with the computer. Your thoughts?

Mel! you should become a coach :P This ain't rocket science here. If the majority of the boxers who win the 1st rd go on to win the bout, then damn right, they should come out swinging from the 1st bell!

[boxmel]

Mel! you should become a coach This ain't rocket science here. If the majority of the boxers who win the 1st rd go on to win the bout, then damn right, they should come out swinging from the 1st bell!

Uhhh - how about I delete my statement - it was kinda dumb. Too bad the new ESS doesn't have a trace report. But I still say you can actually SEE what the judges are doing on the monitor and you can't with paper scoring.

How would you revamp the 20 point must to include ring generalship, power, etc.? And do you think the IOC would let AIBA go back to paper scoring?

[JMac]

How would you revamp the 20 point must to include ring generalship, power, etc.? And do you think the IOC would let AIBA go back to paper scoring?

First of all, the IOC doesn't know boxing. Wu the AIBA Prez who is on the IOC doesn't really know boxing that much either. He was never a boxing guy. He never coached, officiated or I doubt boxed. I think he was a tennis or ping pong guy. But he's what we got for now and he does have the IOC's ear.
With that said, we'll probably never go back to paper scoring since that would not sound progressive to the IOC.
I heard somebody talk about having different buttons that would put different values on punches. Maybe have a button to add something for defense, ring generalship, etc.
They need to get some smart boxing people together and there are plenty of them, we're not all flat nose pugs who say dis and dat, and come up with some new inovated ideas to help the sport!

[boxmel]

I heard somebody talk about having different buttons that would put different values on punches. Maybe have a button to add something for defense, ring generalship, etc.

Sigh. One of the things I really like about amateur boxing is the scoring/judging criteria. Howinthehell do you count defense, ring generalship, etc.? Do you push a button every time a boxer blocks a shot? Do you push a button every time a boxer goes on the offensive and chases his/her opponent around the ring? Arghhhhh!

Thanks for the rest of the comments. I knew Wu had never been involved in boxing.

They need to get some smart boxing people together and there are plenty of them, we're not all flat nose pugs who say dis and dat, and come up with some new inovated ideas to help the sport!

Amen.