BoxRec

but my chronology could be all to cock...its been a long week.

Terry D wrote:Simple strategy to put into place but Holyfield was not the fighter he was at cruiserweight anymore. He was easy to draw into a face-first war and his recent heavyweight fights had seem him often drop his strategy in favour of trading, this cost him in the Bowe fight.

Steward tightened his defence, got him moving well, got him throwing the right shots, and got him the only win he holds over Bowe.

Not bad for an overrated hired gun. Within a few fights with Steward Lewis was showing improved work with his left hand, in the Morrison fight, and was looking more rounded, and powerful, than he had looked in his earlier career.

Manny helped Holyfield produce a great win, and had him boxing more effectively than he had been doing, and it was akin to helping Butterbean win against Bowe as Holyfield was seriously outgunned and Bowe was a better fighter in one-off fights.

With that said Bowe deserved the verdict in that second bout, not Holyfield!

Steward, like Dundee and others, is great because he built fighters and could also come in and help out guys who were deeply flawed. So he has a range of skills.

Get back in your box and think about it for two days!

If you have a Holyfield it is easier to get results.


Holyfield also gave Lennox life and death in the 2nd fight so Holyfield was still a great fighter even then and beat Tyson and Moorer after.

PLUS - WTF DID STEWARD DO FOR CINTRON AND TAYLOR?

When he chose Margarito for Cintron's defence of the title he said 'Cintron will win' - when he got mash down he said 'it was always a fight I thought he could lose'.

He also got Taylor knocked out. Taylor did better in the 2nd fight with his original trainer.. So much for Manny 'Bar' Steward!

Terry D wrote:Nothing to do with later fights. Without Steward Holyfield would have been unlikely to beat Holyfield. He needed someone to sit down, explain his problems, and then work on them. I do not think he could have continued in the same vein and won the rematch as Bowe is a better boxer than him.

You are right, Holyfield did go onto give guys problems, obviously Manny's involvement deeply touched him and made him better, or more canny. Praise is due to Manny, DG has just proven that he saved 'Vanders career. DG brought the news, and it was goooooood.

People had no complaints when he got Cintron fighting well and scoring that impressive KO. He did a good job with a genuinely limited guy, and then put him in with a monster, no shame on Steward there. Cintron did slightly better in fight II.

With Taylor it did not gel. Although there was an improvement in Taylor in the Winky fight, a good result. Taylor was ruined when the management took the decision to match him with three southpaws in a row, then gave him an orthodox middleweight with power and size. Loew has done a good job on Taylor and is 1-0 versus Steward in fights but is he a better trainer? I would say no, no, no to Loew, Loew, Loew.

The problem with these hired guns is that they take a TOP fighter and get them to do something different and peole think they bare great!

Holyfield was always a great Boxer - one of the most technically skilled heavyweight boxers of all time. he had all the shots plus a great chin and engine.

Steward was basically cleaning and waxing a Rolls Royce (Holyfield ) that was looking for a change of wax.

Remember - Holyfield offered Manny $400K to train him in hs fight after Bowe ( I think ) and Manny wanted MORE so Holyfield dropped him. Holyfield later said ' I have been boxing since age 7 - I don't need someone to tell me how to box'!

I could have told Evander what to do against Bowe - but Holyfields talent has to execute!

Southpaws shouldn't be a problem for a trainer - its the fighter that has to do the job - Taylor and Cintron were not good enough but someone like Holyfield is ( see Moorer II) so I say THE FIGHTER MAKES THE TRAINER not the other way round.

For the Holyfield Fight the 3rd I dont think Yoda was about Terry, that made a difference

The fighter makes the trainer.

We must never lose sight of that fact.

To dismiss Manny is pretty ludicrous.

He cant work miracles, no one can make every single fighter better, but to deny he took the clumsy, two left feet trigger happy Lennox Lewis of 93-94 and developed him into a fine, balanced and much improved fighter is to basically admit you never saw one single fight of his post Oliver McCall.

So what if he took Jermain Taylor or Cintron for the money? His body of work beforehand is still above reproach.

"He only really developed Tommy Hearns"... FFS.

Overhand, I dont think Bill Millar would agree with that, He was the best coach at Kronks .

Personally I think the hunger of the trainer should match the hunger of his fighter, and I'm not sure Emmanuel (or many of the other big names for that matter) can continue to always put the same effort and focus into the Cintrons and Taylors of the boxing world having already made his name (and money) over the previous twenty years with more talented men. Obviously past success and experience alone should be able to raise a fighter to a certain level, but my guess is that at this stage of his career he will have other things on in his life that would create the kind of disruptions which wouldn't have been there in his earlier years. Based on this I do think that a trainer, just like a fighter, will peak and eventually move past his prime, but it doesn't mean he was never great.

Steward - good trainer NOT A GREAT!


Accept it.

25 years ago he might have been an all round trainer - but he is not the same man now!

Lennox was destined and I think Lennox would have been a better fighter with anyone pther than Pepe Correa.

overhand_right wrote:To dismiss Manny is pretty ludicrous.

He cant work miracles, no one can make every single fighter better, but to deny he took the clumsy, two left feet trigger happy Lennox Lewis of 93-94 and developed him into a fine, balanced and much improved fighter is to basically admit you never saw one single fight of his post Oliver McCall.

So what if he took Jermain Taylor or Cintron for the money? His body of work beforehand is still above reproach.

"He only really developed Tommy Hearns"... FFS.

He is not being dismissed, he is a good trainer - but not a great.

That's MY opinion.. No one has to agree!

I was around the Lewis set up from the start you could say I was a on the outside of the team.

The transformation of Lewis from Gold medalists to professional champion was done in the early days behind closed doors in the gyms of South London and training camps throughout and different parts of the USA under the guidance of John Davenport (RIP).

He is the man who bought in Harold Knight who Davenport also trained back in the USA.

People also seem to forget the work that was done behind the scenes by the management team especially after Lewis was KO'D by McCall.

I believe another reason for Lewis's career lasting so long was the employment by Maloney of Joe Dunbar who was bought in the team as a sports scientist and conditioner to work alongside Courtney Shand.

An American member of the team who I will not name said Joe Dunbar added at least 4 more years to Lewis's career.

Pepe Correra was an out and out cheerleader and Emanuel Steward got the job coz of his name and the input of John Hornerwer who at the time was Lewis's lawyer.

It is rumoured that Emmanuel was not the choice of the whole team and a lot of the time Harold Knight did most of the work.

I am surprised that Knight has not gone on to make a name for himself as a trainer, other than Steward the only one of the Lewis team who has made a name for himself in boxing is his former manager Maloney (the mental midget).

Stewards secret is that he is a great self publicist.

dapug wrote:I was around the Lewis set up from the start you could say I was a on the outside of the team.

The transformation of Lewis from Gold medalists to professional champion was done in the early days behind closed doors in the gyms of South London and training camps throughout and different parts of the USA under the guidance of John Davenport (RIP).

He is the man who bought in Harold Knight who Davenport also trained back in the USA.

People also seem to forget the work that was done behind the scenes by the management team especially after Lewis was KO'D by McCall.

I believe another reason for Lewis's career lasting so long was the employment by Maloney of Joe Dunbar who was bought in the team as a sports scientist and conditioner to work alongside Courtney Shand.

An American member of the team who I will not name said Joe Dunbar added at least 4 more years to Lewis's career.

Pepe Correra was an out and out cheerleader and Emanuel Steward got the job coz of his name and the input of John Hornerwer who at the time was Lewis's lawyer.

It is rumoured that Emmanuel was not the choice of the whole team and a lot of the time Harold Knight did most of the work.

I am surprised that Knight has not gone on to make a name for himself as a trainer, other than Steward the only one of the Lewis team who has made a name for himself in boxing is his former manager Maloney (the mental midget).

Stewards secret is that he is a great self publicist.

Nice post.

dapug wrote:I was around the Lewis set up from the start you could say I was a on the outside of the team.

The transformation of Lewis from Gold medalists to professional champion was done in the early days behind closed doors in the gyms of South London and training camps throughout and different parts of the USA under the guidance of John Davenport (RIP).

He is the man who bought in Harold Knight who Davenport also trained back in the USA.

People also seem to forget the work that was done behind the scenes by the management team especially after Lewis was KO'D by McCall.

I believe another reason for Lewis's career lasting so long was the employment by Maloney of Joe Dunbar who was bought in the team as a sports scientist and conditioner to work alongside Courtney Shand.

An American member of the team who I will not name said Joe Dunbar added at least 4 more years to Lewis's career.

Pepe Correra was an out and out cheerleader and Emanuel Steward got the job coz of his name and the input of John Hornerwer who at the time was Lewis's lawyer.

It is rumoured that Emmanuel was not the choice of the whole team and a lot of the time Harold Knight did most of the work.

I am surprised that Knight has not gone on to make a name for himself as a trainer, other than Steward the only one of the Lewis team who has made a name for himself in boxing is his former manager Maloney (the mental midget).

Stewards secret is that he is a great self publicist.

READ THAT T. DIDDLY!!!

Don't forget Lennox's ex-boyfriend...what was his name now?

Terry D wrote:

DG. wrote:

dapug wrote:I was around the Lewis set up from the start you could say I was a on the outside of the team.

The transformation of Lewis from Gold medalists to professional champion was done in the early days behind closed doors in the gyms of South London and training camps throughout and different parts of the USA under the guidance of John Davenport (RIP).

He is the man who bought in Harold Knight who Davenport also trained back in the USA.

People also seem to forget the work that was done behind the scenes by the management team especially after Lewis was KO'D by McCall.

I believe another reason for Lewis's career lasting so long was the employment by Maloney of Joe Dunbar who was bought in the team as a sports scientist and conditioner to work alongside Courtney Shand.

An American member of the team who I will not name said Joe Dunbar added at least 4 more years to Lewis's career.

Pepe Correra was an out and out cheerleader and Emanuel Steward got the job coz of his name and the input of John Hornerwer who at the time was Lewis's lawyer.

It is rumoured that Emmanuel was not the choice of the whole team and a lot of the time Harold Knight did most of the work.

I am surprised that Knight has not gone on to make a name for himself as a trainer, other than Steward the only one of the Lewis team who has made a name for himself in boxing is his former manager Maloney (the mental midget).

Stewards secret is that he is a great self publicist.

READ THAT T. DIDDLY!!!

Nice insight from Dapug but I won't discount the BM interview in which Steward told everyone what he saw as a fundamental flaw in Lewis's right hand and used that flaw to engineer a win for McCall, who grabbed him a heavyweight title win. Steward then went to Lewis, corrected that flaw, and saw his man go onto a genuine stab at greatness, which looked unlikely before Steward joined.

You cannot discount all of that.

And I can not discount the fact Hasim Rahman knocked Lennox COLD.

As was said, Steward is a great self publicist!

DG. wrote: PLUS - WTF DID STEWARD DO FOR CINTRON AND TAYLOR?

And Vivian Harris, Wlad got beat by Brewster under Manny too

Terry D wrote:

DG. wrote:And I can not discount the fact Hasim Rahman knocked Lennox COLD.

As was said, Steward is a great self publicist!

After getting all ego about things and making a movie prior to the film then turning up too late to get used to the altitude change.

Stewards publicity comes with every Lewis win under him, the career of Hearns, the troubleshooting successes, the heavyweight title holders and the countless fighters who have won titles under him.

Let you and the naysayers post man-for-man your list of heavyweight title holders versus Steward's and see if it is merely a case of him using publicity. If fights were won by press releases Khan would be British Champion right now. Come to the real world DG. You need to pause and think, I think we should introduce DG Tips decaffeinated, for a slightly calmer cup of DG DD

Diddly Diddly Diddly,

Steward has more success because he had more opportunities based on His 'KRONK' fame.

I am sure Manny is a good trainer - but he is not great!

Don't look at the title holders he trained - look at who STEWARD trained to BEAT THE TITLE HOLDER!

E wrote:Don't forget Lennox's ex-boyfriend...what was his name now?

Oh yeah - Scott, that was it!

Terry D wrote:

DG. wrote:Diddly Diddly Diddly,

Steward has more success because he had more opportunities based on His 'KRONK' fame.

I am sure Manny is a good trainer - but he is not great!

Don't look at the title holders he trained - look at who STEWARD trained to BEAT THE TITLE HOLDER!

Dee. He got the opportunites by building the Kronk, if he brought in great help then this shows great management thinking.

He is more than a good trainer, in fact he is great! He trained Holyfield to beat Bowe, something Holyfield never looked capable of doing. You should be to Manny you mad man.

DG Brings the news DD



Have you been sniffing Lionel Ritchie's hair again this week DG!?

Manny is to Greatness what George Bush is to race relations!

I think Holyfield looked like he could beat Bowe - after all he was favourite to beat Bowe in the first fight.

The knockdown he scored in the 3rd fight was a thing of beauty!

Dapug sums it up pretty good, Didnt know that John had Died RIP He was a nice guy.

Steward has worked with great fighters, but generally he is overrated, as aremost boxing trainers. Believe it or not, but I think the creme de la creme are mostly responsible for their own development. A trainer just adds bits and bobs, which I'm sure Manny has done ten fold. His biggest problem for me is, when his fighters lose, they often lose BIG, either TKO, KO or wide points losses.

Is training the Bandage or the Wound

Gray-Fox wrote:Steward has worked with great fighters, but generally he is overrated, as aremost boxing trainers. Believe it or not, but I think the creme de la creme are mostly responsible for their own development. A trainer just adds bits and bobs, which I'm sure Manny has done ten fold. His biggest problem for me is, when his fighters lose, they often lose BIG, either TKO, KO or wide points losses.

You covered yourself there to avoid the Lewis and Hearns draws v Holyfield and Leonard :)

Some good points on this thread, though in fairness I think some trainers are worth their weight in gold. Atlas? Or was he overrated. I only know so much about him but he's always impressed me.

Steward was worth his weight in gold in the late 70s/early 80s (was there a better collection of fighters anywhere else?). Until around 85 I had him at the top of his game.

Nowadays he doesn't seem to care as much, and certainly doesn't bring talent through like he used to. Jury is still out on Andy Lee.

In the 70s and 80s Bill Miller was about, a Big player at the Kronks