Jack Dempsey vs Harry Greb

[slakka]

So now I’ve wronged you saying you "recommended" when you didn't use that exact word anywhere in yer post-
But you in a sense "recommended" in the spirit of your post.

These things take the wind outta my sails!

[Seamus]

In the final analysis you've got to ask the question. What Heavyweight did Greb ever beat that would lend some credence to a scenario in which he'd beat Dempsey. From everything I've read, Greb put on quite a performance in his sparring sessions with Dempsey, but let's never forget, they were sparring sessions and not the real thing.

[raylawpc]

So now I’ve wronged you saying you "recommended" when you didn't use that exact word anywhere in yer post-
But you in a sense "recommended" in the spirit of your post.

These things take the wind outta my sails!

Please put your mind at ease. I don't feel wronged in any sense. I merely pointed out a source whereby users of this forum could read accounts of the sparring sessions for themselves.

But I'll ask again, "Can you give us information regarding when and where these reports you cite were published so that we can read them for ourselves?"

[klompton]

Smith wrote for the Chicago Evening American and was a tremendous boxing writer and referee. Francis Albertanti was writing for the New York Daily Mail at the time (I believe, he wrote for several papers so that may be incorrect). As for who Greb beat that would give credence to beating Dempsey well. He beat Bill Brennan four times without losing a round, Dempsey struggled with Brennan especially in their second match which he almost lost. Greb dominated Gibbons over 15 rounds in a title eliminator winning more impressively than Dempsey, He had fought Miske 3 times 1 draw, 1 loss, and one easy win. He couldnt force Carpentier into the ring with him. Defeated Tunney 3 out 5 times. So Id have to say Greb at the very least should have been given a shot at Dempsey and would have given the champ a seriously rough go possibly even outpointing him. He faired as well against Dempsey's opponents as Dempsey did so why not?

[UpWithEvil]

"He beat Bill Brennan four times without losing a round, Dempsey struggled with Brennan especially in their second match which he almost lost."

I've seen this fight, Brennan clocks Dempsey with his Sunday punch in the second round and Jack goes into a shell for a couple of rounds. Dempsey takes control by the 7th or so and grinds Brennan to a bruised pulp with murderous infighting and body work on his way to a KO.

Greb's efforts against Brennan are impressive, but he never stopped him and never knocked him down. KO Bill never say the final round in either fight against Dempsey.

"Greb dominated Gibbons over 15 rounds in a title eliminator winning more impressively than Dempsey,"

I only have about 45 minutes of Dempsey vs Gibbons on film but I don't see anything there that contradicts the claim that Dempsey won 12 or 13 of the 15 rounds that day. Gibbons fought extremely defensively and Dempsey wasn't interested in taking any risks given that whether he'd even get paid was in some doubt.

Gibbons had boxed Greb's ears off in their first fight in 1920 as well, so I think there is some evidence that Tommy was near Greb's level in many respects as a boxer.

The best argument I can see for Greb being a threat to Dempsey is this - Dempsey's greatest asset as a fighter wasn't his power, although he had plenty of KO ability. It was his speed. Dempsey was incredibly fast for a heavyweight, light on his feet and full of movement that the big, strong heavies simply couldn't cope with. Dempsey always had his toughest nights against smaller, quicker men whose own quickness could neutralize his greatest asset. Against a big lummox - Carl Morris, Fred Fulton, Jess Willard, etc., Dempsey had nothing to fear, but against the slippery quicksters he could be frustrated. There was nobody quicker or more slippery than Harry Greb. Greb's relative light hitting would mean that Jack would have the full 15 rounds to put him away, but it would be a long night.

[klompton]

In the second Brennan fight Dempsey was hit with a punch in 11th round that split his ear open like Sebastian Lujan against Margarito causing the blood to cascade down his shoulder. When he stopped Brennan most observers had Dempsey either behind or just pulling even. I have the entire fight on film, complete and Dempsey was behind in my opinion. He was getting outboxed, outjabbed, and tied up on the inside. Furthermore Brennan's uppercuts were a thing of beauty. I also have the complete Gibbons bout and Gibbons was ahead after the fifth. Its true he fought a defensive fight and he did beat Greb in 1920 but Greb avenged that defeat 2 months later and won the 15 rd decision bout in MSG which was supposed to get him a shot at Dempsey. In addition to the people named Greb defeated lots of guys who were in line for a shot at Dempsey or being groomed for a shot at Dempsey and basically halted their march to a title fight. The point was that Dempsey consistently defended his title against guys Greb had beaten and beaten with the express purpose of forcing a championship match and thus whether you think he would have won or lost Harry deserved a shot based on his record.

[UpWithEvil]

"In the second Brennan fight Dempsey was hit with a punch in 11th round that split his ear open like Sebastian Lujan against Margarito causing the blood to cascade down his shoulder."

The New York Times report of the fight actually notes Dempsey's injured ear as occurring in the 10th round - a round Dempsey dominated:

"Tenth Round. The men went to close quarters and broke without orders from the referee. Brennan covered against a left, and Dempsey also missed with a right. The champion jabbed with his left, but Brennan blocked effectively. Dempsey thudded a left to the face and a clinch followed. Dempsey was forcing the fighting and at close quarters he worked continually. Brennan held the champion's right arm under his left in a clinch, but Dempsey works with jolting blows to the face with his free left. He split Dempsey's ear. Dempsey landed a left which staggered Brennan and the champion followed quickly with a right which almost made Brennan topple. Brennan recovered and with a wild right smashed Dempsey's left ear which bled freely. Dempsey rushed his opponent and was jolting his jaw in close quarters. Brennan was plainly groggy."

"When he stopped Brennan most observers had Dempsey either behind or just pulling even. I have the entire fight on film, complete and Dempsey was behind in my opinion."

I'd like to see the whole fight some time, I very much enjoy the limited footage I already have.

Again, from the NYT report (New York being the site of the event, so we can consider it credible first-hand analysis): "STORY OF THE BOUT ROUND BY ROUND Champion has decided edge over his rival in most of the sessions ...Brennan gave a good account of himself early in the bout, but quickly showed traces of the punishment to which he was subjected, and after the 4th session fought only in flashes. The challenger suffered mostly from the body blows which sapped his strength by degrees and in the end brought about his downfall. Several times before the finish Dempsey had his rival shaky and groggy, but Brennan held his feet nevertheless and fought back gamely, albiet weakly, while he remained on his feet."

I also have the complete Gibbons bout and Gibbons was ahead after the fifth.

This isn't in any way incompatible with the claim that Dempsey won 12 or 13 of the 15 rounds that day.

I'd much rather see the full Brennan fight than the full Gibbons fight, for what it's worth. I think the remaining 60 minutes of footage I have from that day in Shelby pretty much covers everything adequately.

The point was that Dempsey consistently defended his title against guys Greb had beaten and beaten with the express purpose of forcing a championship match

I'm pretty sure Greb's "express purpose" for fighting anybody was getting the winner's purse. Boxing was the wild west back then, any promoter could make any claim about the victor's next opponent, you heard it all the time about nearly every contender of the era.

[klompton]

You can be pretty sure of any thing you want but Greb was camping on Dempsey's trail to get a title shot and the big bucks that came along with it, not the peanuts he was getting (in his mind) for fighting guys like Brennan in the sticks.

[slakka]

Ah Jess Willard and Grantland Rice, they were also believers in Harrys chances vs Demps.

[slakka]

Here u are.
Took a while.

Ring Days Of Joe Louis And Billy Conn Numbered
GRANTLAND RICE
The Hartford Courant (1923-present); May 21, 1942; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Hartford Courant (1764 - 1984) pg. 13

I recall a meeting one night in Florida this spring, with Lou Nova and Teddy Hayes, a co-worker with Jack Kearns and Jack Dempsey. Teddy Hayes, one of the smartest of the old fight mob, a high-grade trainer on the side, was telling Nova about a fellow named Harry Greb. "When Greb was right," Teddy said, "before he was half blind, he almost murdered Gene Tunney and Tom Gibbons, and he came near wrecking Jack Dempsey in two training camps. I know Dempsey, and this includes Kearns, wanted no part of Harry Greb. A Greb-Dempsey match was suggested, but I don't think it would be a contest-and neither did Doc Kearns." Turning to Nova, Teddy Hayes said, "I'd hate to think how you'd look after three rounds against Greb."

[harrygreb]

i'm not sure i couldve beaten jack. its true i busted him up in camp and kearns wanted no part of me in a real pow-pow but dempsey could hurt to the belly and i'd rather take one to the shnozzer than in the old bread basket.
i'd tear his head off for 5 rounds but heavy guys take it out of ya whatever the situation.
if i'm being honest wit ya, id give it to jack.

[klompton]

i'm not sure i couldve beaten jack. its true i busted him up in camp and kearns wanted no part of me in a real pow-pow but dempsey could hurt to the belly and i'd rather take one to the shnozzer than in the old bread basket.
i'd tear his head off for 5 rounds but heavy guys take it out of ya whatever the situation.
if i'm being honest wit ya, id give it to jack.

I hope I dont need to tell anyone here that Greb never said that...

[Robinson]

yeah he did....

he said it in the post above ya....

[harrygreb]

thanks robinson - we'll share a beer when you make it up here in paradise. (the place is pretty damn dull to be honest)

[slakka]

Hello rawlawpc, heres your request.


Ring Days Of Joe Louis And Billy Conn Numbered
GRANTLAND RICE
The Hartford Courant (1923-present); May 21, 1942; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Hartford Courant (1764 - 1984) pg. 13

I recall a meeting one night in Florida this spring, with Lou Nova and Teddy Hayes, a co-worker with Jack Kearns and Jack Dempsey. Teddy Hayes, one of the smartest of the old fight mob, a high-grade trainer on the side, was telling Nova about a fellow named Harry Greb. "When Greb was right," Teddy said, "before he was half blind, he almost murdered Gene Tunney and Tom Gibbons, and he came near wrecking Jack Dempsey in two training camps. I know Dempsey, and this includes Kearns, wanted no part of Harry Greb. A Greb-Dempsey match was suggested, but I don't think it would be a contest-and neither did Doc Kearns." Turning to Nova, Teddy Hayes said, "I'd hate to think how you'd look after three rounds against Greb."

[raylawpc]

Thank you. In fact, I was hoping for the citation to the stories by Smith and Albertani that you mentioned. But I appreciate your quote from Granny Rice regarding Teddy Hayes.

[slakka]

Well ya go into yer stacks looking for one thing and come with another.

[raylawpc]

Evidently so. Do you have a cite to the reports by Smith and Albertani?

[slakka]

Ed W. Smith wrote for the Chicago American. I'm assuming you know the dates as you referenced them already via Harrygreb.com. Francis Albertani wrote a beautiful obit on Harry in the New York Telegram OR New York Telegraph wherein he recollected the N.Y.C. encounter with clarity.

[raylawpc]

Ed W. Smith wrote for the Chicago American. I'm assuming you know the dates as you referenced them already via Harrygreb.com. Francis Albertani wrote a beautiful obit on Harry in the New York Telegram OR New York Telegraph wherein he recollected the N.Y.C. encounter with clarity.

But you criticized those reports as incomplete. I incorrectly assumed, I guess, that you could cite the Albertini and Smith reports.

[slakka]

You want me to go into my stacks..find a needle in a haystack..type them in this N-G at my 10 wpm?
Me and my big mouth!

[raylawpc]

You want me to go into my stacks..find a needle in a haystack..type them in this N-G at my 10 wpm?
Me and my big mouth!

No, I don't want you to do anything. You can do anything you want. Its still a free country and certainly a free forum.

But if you know the name of the paper, the date of the article, and the page number for the article, I'd appreciate it if you would cite them, so that those of us who are interested can look them up for ourselves. Or, if you don't have the articles, simply say that you only recall reading them. In that way, we all know whether you are simply recalling what you read at some point in time (and memories are faulty - mine is), or whether you have the article in front of you.

[slakka]

??????????
I've already named the paps and the dates.
????????????
I'll try to type in the Albertany recollection of the little known N.Y.C. encounter from July 1920 but I need some more time.

[raylawpc]

??????????
I've already named the paps and the dates.
????????????
I'll try to type in the Albertany recollection of the little known N.Y.C. encounter from July 1920 but I need some more time.

This is what you wrote:

"I have prime Harry Greb dominating Dempsey in 3 Benton Harbor encounters
9/1920 as well as a prior encounter 7/1920 in the Van Kelton stadium in nyc.
The 3 Benton Harbor encounters were witnessed by the senior boxing writer on the scene in that day Ed W. Smith of the Chi American, the 1 NYC encounter by another notable, Francis Albertani who actually worked for Dempsey. Together they synthesize into a very remarkable picture of a super fighting machine, in my own personal opinion, the greatest the world has ever known."

[slakka]

I also wrote this, no?
This can't go on and on.


Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:14 pm
Ed W. Smith wrote for the Chicago American. I'm assuming you know the dates as you referenced them already via Harrygreb.com. Francis Albertani wrote a beautiful obit on Harry in the New York Telegram OR New York Telegraph wherein he recollected the N.Y.C. encounter with clarity.