BoxRec

Good points - David on Lewis, and thats why I have him in the same bracket as Joe when it comes to the P4P of his generation debates. The lack of Moorer, Bowe and Foreman (the first two especially) do hurt his legacy. I think a great should clean up his own generation first, or if that is not possible move up - in Lewis' case that wasn't possible, but it still hurts him IMO.

However, I think the difference between the two that is key is that between up and comers getting exposed elsewhere (Wlad Klitchsko, Byrd, Johnson Guinn, Ruiz) and the fighters Lewis actually beat - he actually cleared up the next generation also. Grant was the American dream, Tua was the one considered the "experts" pick, Vitali Klitchsko was the Russian monster, Golota was the guy who finished off Bowe.

Lewis had the fortune that Joe didn't have in that the guys sorted each other out. In much the same way Hopkins has helped Joe's legacy in beating Pavlik. Who else from the post 2004 guys was left there - Byrd had been beaten, Ruiz had been beaten, Wlad Klitchsko had been beaten (remember in 2004/2005 he was considered washed up), Guinn was beaten... Mesi? Valuev, Chagaev - all really came on the scene after 2004.

Now if Kessler beats Bute, Froch, Taylor and a few others then that will help Calzaghe's legacy no end - but with Lewis this all happend before he retired - a fight with Wlad in 2004/2005 wouldn't have gone down well with the experts.

I'd day the WBO belt Hide and Bennt won was essentially meaningless. I think Briggs alos 'only' won the WBO belt and that in a controversial points win over a 93 year old Foreman.

I was, of course, playing Devils' Advocate.

It is getting a bit tiresome. With the Lewis comparisons, we have to consider that Joe's career isn't over yet.

We probably need to get over it a bit, what Joe didn't do before 2006. We'd respect him more, and earlier, if he'd cleaned out Beyer and Ottke. If he'd fought Catleys and Johnsons rather than Pudwills and McIntyres. Respect, but little fame I would argue.

But he beat Kessler, a better fighter than Ottke/Beyer. And he beat Lacy, a much more attractive fight to a global audience, than German peck and poke artists. If Joe had started earlier, he wouldn't still be around, we wouldn't be arguing, and we wouldn't be staying up all night just to watch him fight.


Even Larry Holmes didn't go after the rival heavyweight title holders. He fought whoever was put in front of him, and it wasn't all glamorous, and the attractive fight eventually came, Cooney. Hopkins probably wouldn't have unified his division if 3/4 of the champs were in Europe.

stujones wrote:Good points - David on Lewis, and thats why I have him in the same bracket as Joe when it comes to the P4P of his generation debates. The lack of Moorer, Bowe and Foreman (the first two especially) do hurt his legacy. I think a great should clean up his own generation first, or if that is not possible move up - in Lewis' case that wasn't possible, but it still hurts him IMO.

However, I think the difference between the two that is key is that between up and comers getting exposed elsewhere (Wlad Klitchsko, Byrd, Johnson Guinn, Ruiz) and the fighters Lewis actually beat - he actually cleared up the next generation also. Grant was the American dream, Tua was the one considered the "experts" pick, Vitali Klitchsko was the Russian monster, Golota was the guy who finished off Bowe.

Lewis had the fortune that Joe didn't have in that the guys sorted each other out. In much the same way Hopkins has helped Joe's legacy in beating Pavlik. Who else from the post 2004 guys was left there - Byrd had been beaten, Ruiz had been beaten, Wlad Klitchsko had been beaten (remember in 2004/2005 he was considered washed up), Guinn was beaten... Mesi? Valuev, Chagaev - all really came on the scene after 2004.

Now if Kessler beats Bute, Froch, Taylor and a few others then that will help Calzaghe's legacy no end - but with Lewis this all happend before he retired - a fight with Wlad in 2004/2005 wouldn't have gone down well with the experts.

Not fighting Moorer, Bowe & Foreman doesn't hurt Lewis. Bowe refused to fight him, Foreman dumped his belts and made lineal defences vs anyone he wanted, and Moorer would have been too timid to take a Lewis fight never mind perform on the night. You can't fight everyone.

I think Kessler is perfectly poised to get the likes of Taylor, Pavlik, Abraham (weight drained middles), Froch (hungry potential rival champ) & Dirrell/Ward (on the up Yanks not far off title shots). It's all there for him, plus some easy German money (Murat, Tsypko, Larsen). His attitude is purist friendly - he just gets on with it, which I like - there are lots of attractive and lucrative fights out there. I think super middle has changed a lot since the Calzaghe/Ottke days, for the better.

But would he have become a big name for beating Ottke and Beyer? Those fights wouldn't have put him on the stage he's at now, i.e. big home crowds, high profile fights in Vegas and NYC. We'd all think more highly of him, would have taken him seriously sooner, but these men were big only in Germany and often got bad press for controversial wins.

I think he should have done it, well within his abilities. I doubt it would have been easy to make - Sauerland would have wanted to keep both his cash cows, the last thing he needed was to match them with JC - the fights would have been as ugly as they would be hard to make, & I don't think it would have made JC a big name at home or in America.

He would have had some better mandatories, though!

I know its a curious one to admit but its the Glen Catley one that pisses me off the most. There was a guilt edge chance to make a big-fight in Britian, both fighters from the south-west, both with a following and a belt.

It was a no-brainer to me.

Who was Catley promoted by at the time, and could anyone illuminate my sad existance with the revelation it was discussed or came close to being put together.

I know Catley isn't James Toney but it would have been more meaningful, entertaining and exciting than some of the dross at the time.

DavidPayne wrote:I know its a curious one to admit but its the Glen Catley one that pisses me off the most. There was a guilt edge chance to make a big-fight in Britian, both fighters from the south-west, both with a following and a belt.

It was a no-brainer to me.

Who was Catley promoted by at the time, and could anyone illuminate my sad existance with the revelation it was discussed or came close to being put together.

I know Catley isn't James Toney but it would have been more meaningful, entertaining and exciting than some of the dross at the time.

Joe would have made a horrible mess of Catley tho, i cant imagine Glen would be that up for the fight until he had made a few quid defending the WBC belt

Would have been good, I agree. Catley was exciting and he'd stopped Beyer, so that would have looked good. Shame Catley went off the boil, losing to Haussler.

The ones I regret more are Dean Francis (injury) and Steve Collins (pullout), no fault of Joe's.

Autobarn wrote:It is getting a bit tiresome. With the Lewis comparisons, we have to consider that Joe's career isn't over yet.



But he beat Kessler, a better fighter than Ottke/Beyer. And he beat Lacy, a much more attractive fight to a global audience, than German peck and poke artists. If Joe had started earlier, he wouldn't still be around, we wouldn't be arguing, and we wouldn't be staying up all night just to watch him fight..

Thats the problem, its VERY debatable if Kessler is better than Ottke and Beyer. When talking about Beyer, I'm not talking about the chinny fighter who to two attempts to beat Sarnavia. Beyer was a different fighter in his first reign and was okay in his second reign - by the third reign he was a defeat waiting to happen. But give him his dues, he didn't mind going to the opponents back yard to challenge.

Ottke made 20 defences of his title, including a stoppage win over Kessler's best victim. Sorry, Ottke and Kessler will never fight so we can never say who is better but on CURRENT record - Ottke is better, significantly.

I'll repeat, Kessler COULD become a great and dominant champion for 5/6 years beating the likes of Froch/Bute/Larssen/Pavlik/Taylor/Abraham/Sturm etc - he might not. Alot of Joe's legacy depends on Kessler IMO... and at nearly 29, he's got to get a move on.

Kessler nearly knocked Beyer's chin through the back of his head. He'd have beaten any Beyer. Ottke would have gone peck and poke, narrow decision, vs Kessler's best scalps. I do think Kessler will go on to be a great super middle, if he gets the big fight that are so close to him, and delivers.

That Ottke had a controversy with Thomas Tate says enough, IMO.

If you agree or not, super middle was much tastier in 2006-7, than in 2001-3.

Autobarn wrote:But would he have become a big name for beating Ottke and Beyer? Those fights wouldn't have put him on the stage he's at now, i.e. big home crowds, high profile fights in Vegas and NYC. We'd all think more highly of him, would have taken him seriously sooner, but these men were big only in Germany and often got bad press for controversial wins.

I think he should have done it, well within his abilities. I doubt it would have been easy to make - Sauerland would have wanted to keep both his cash cows, the last thing he needed was to match them with JC - the fights would have been as ugly as they would be hard to make, & I don't think it would have made JC a big name at home or in America.

He would have had some better mandatories, though!

Of course Joe would have been a bigger name.... say Joe held all the belts in 2003 - assuming he is a class above Ottke and Beyer. He would have been the Unified champion and would have had alot more respect stateside. The reason for Joe's hightend popularity is because he was expected to lose to the American Dream and American's tuned in to see the corronation. Joe didn't read the script. Now, if Joe had been the unified champion - then the press in the states would have called for a match with Jones/Hopkins far earlier cause of the respect he deserved.

Beating Ottke in Germany on a Saturday night would have still made prime time Sky Sports coverage and he would have come home a hero... it certainly would have got more coverage than his wins over Pudwill etc.

Autobarn wrote:Kessler nearly knocked Beyer's chin through the back of his head. He'd have beaten any Beyer. Ottke would have gone peck and poke, narrow decision, vs Kessler's best scalps. I do think Kessler will go on to be a great super middle, if he gets the big fight that are so close to him, and delivers.

That Ottke had a controversy with Thomas Tate says enough, IMO.

If you agree or not, super middle was much tastier in 2006-7, than in 2001-3.

What a ridiculous statement. That's like saying Kevin McBride would have beaten any version of Tyson.

stujones wrote:

Autobarn wrote:But would he have become a big name for beating Ottke and Beyer? Those fights wouldn't have put him on the stage he's at now, i.e. big home crowds, high profile fights in Vegas and NYC. We'd all think more highly of him, would have taken him seriously sooner, but these men were big only in Germany and often got bad press for controversial wins.

I think he should have done it, well within his abilities. I doubt it would have been easy to make - Sauerland would have wanted to keep both his cash cows, the last thing he needed was to match them with JC - the fights would have been as ugly as they would be hard to make, & I don't think it would have made JC a big name at home or in America.

He would have had some better mandatories, though!

Of course Joe would have been a bigger name.... say Joe held all the belts in 2003 - assuming he is a class above Ottke and Beyer. He would have been the Unified champion and would have had alot more respect stateside. The reason for Joe's hightend popularity is because he was expected to lose to the American Dream and American's tuned in to see the corronation. Joe didn't read the script. Now, if Joe had been the unified champion - then the press in the states would have called for a match with Jones/Hopkins far earlier cause of the respect he deserved.

Beating Ottke in Germany on a Saturday night would have still made prime time Sky Sports coverage and he would have come home a hero... it certainly would have got more coverage than his wins over Pudwill etc.

Joe should have capitalised on the win over Brewer, which was truly sensational and had all the yanks talking, there was talk of him going stateside, but instead, Joe went back to newbridge, and continued his assault on the bottom feeders of the WBO rankings for the next 3 years......and then said it was because he was scared of flying.

Truth is, Joe has never wanted to take any big risks in his career, by his own admission, his father had to talk him into the fights with Lacy and Kessler.

Autobarn wrote:Kessler nearly knocked Beyer's chin through the back of his head. He'd have beaten any Beyer. Ottke would have gone peck and poke, narrow decision, vs Kessler's best scalps. I do think Kessler will go on to be a great super middle, if he gets the big fight that are so close to him, and delivers.

That Ottke had a controversy with Thomas Tate says enough, IMO.

If you agree or not, super middle was much tastier in 2006-7, than in 2001-3.

What was the controversy with Thomas Tate again?

Narrow decision over Kessler's best scalps? Who was that again, Mundine?

Super Middleweight devision is tastiest now - post Calzaghe and Ottke. Froch (should he win), Inkin, Kessler, Bute - 4 young(ish) similar level champions(ish) with one defeat amongst them. Can't wait for the Unification series, add Larsen (who I don't think is easy), Taylor, Pavlik, Abraham to the mix - tasty times ahead - hopefully. They've got to fight each other.

It could have been tasty in 2001-2003 - we could have had - Calzaghe, Ottke, Beyer, Hopkins, Jones (maintained he could have made Super Middle), Trinidad etc - just a pitty they never fought each other instead made lots of poor defences.

This devision will be no good if Inkin, Kessler et al just fight no vowel guys.

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:
Joe would have made a horrible mess of Catley tho, i cant imagine Glen would be that up for the fight until he had made a few quid defending the WBC belt

Of course Joe would have been favoured, but no one else made a horrible mess of Glenn - including one of Joe's better opponents, Richie Woodhall. So how come Richie was good enough for the challenge, but not Glenn?

True, but would he have been a BIG name? Could Warren have done not only 1 deal with Sauerland, but two? Sauer had something to lose.

Hopkins and Jones being the 2 best p4p in the world wasn't enough to make them fight each other, in '01 and '02.

Anyway, instead of Beyer and Ottke we got Lacy and Kessler, the latter of which is better.

stujones wrote:

Autobarn wrote:Kessler nearly knocked Beyer's chin through the back of his head. He'd have beaten any Beyer. Ottke would have gone peck and poke, narrow decision, vs Kessler's best scalps. I do think Kessler will go on to be a great super middle, if he gets the big fight that are so close to him, and delivers.

That Ottke had a controversy with Thomas Tate says enough, IMO.

If you agree or not, super middle was much tastier in 2006-7, than in 2001-3.

What was the controversy with Thomas Tate again?

Narrow decision over Kessler's best scalps? Who was that again, Mundine?

Super Middleweight devision is tastiest now - post Calzaghe and Ottke. Froch (should he win), Inkin, Kessler, Bute - 4 young(ish) similar level champions(ish) with one defeat amongst them. Can't wait for the Unification series, add Larsen (who I don't think is easy), Taylor, Pavlik, Abraham to the mix - tasty times ahead - hopefully. They've got to fight each other.

It could have been tasty in 2001-2003 - we could have had - Calzaghe, Ottke, Beyer, Hopkins, Jones (maintained he could have made Super Middle), Trinidad etc - just a pitty they never fought each other instead made lots of poor defences.

This devision will be no good if Inkin, Kessler et al just fight no vowel guys.

Tate basically cut & stopped Ottke. Ottke got away with some sort of technical decision, no contest - whatever he kpet the title and had a big rematch. Tate was beaten by Julian Jackson in about '93. He was well past it when Ottke fought him.

Ottke I doubt would have been utterly dominant vs Siaca, Andrade, Beyer, Sartison...With Ottke, every decent foe was peck and poke, life and death. Kessler can hold the middle of the ring and break apart a good opponent's face.

I think super middle's going to be excellent. Will be very hard to get the WBO and IBF champs in the mix as they wil want to dominate at home (Germany, Canada). Pavlik, Taylor, Abraham will need super middle belts sooner or later, Showtime seem pretty big on Dirrell, Ward is progressing nicely, Jacobs looking promising. I think things always seem to happen, when the Yanks want the fights and the money's there.

Stu - you are becoming an opposite version of Max Molenyuex!!!!

Whilst there is a lot of merit in what you say you reveal your true self by arguing that JC v Kessler was a draw!!

feck me!! it was not even close

We can argue until the cows come home but the facts speak for themselves:

Kessler
Hopkins
Lacy
Reid
Eubank
Brewer
Mitchell
Woodhall

This is like a who's who of 168-175lbers in the last 10 years and Joe has beaten them all

Ottke - why the assumption that it is Joe's fault the fight never took place, although if it did Joe wins very easily

Honestly Stu whilst you argue very well some of your views are very distorted

Kessler fight a draw!! - dear me, back to the drawing board me thinks

Kevin

Autobarn wrote:True, but would he have been a BIG name? Could Warren have done not only 1 deal with Sauerland, but two? Sauer had something to lose.

Hopkins and Jones being the 2 best p4p in the world wasn't enough to make them fight each other, in '01 and '02.

Anyway, instead of Beyer and Ottke we got Lacy and Kessler, the latter of which is better.

Hopkins and Jones did have a few stumbling blocks even with the press, firstly the weight - Hopkins was a Middle, Jones was a Light Heavyweight looking for a challenge -he didn't perceive a guy he had beaten pretty clearly a challenge and neither did many stateside fans - despite the Tito win.

If Lacy came back and somehow destroyed Kessler, Froch etc - would I want to see Lacy vs Joe 2 - not really. Kessler (if Kessler unifies) vs Calzaghe 2 is slightly different, cause that fight was close. Hopkins vs Jones wasn't close.

Yes win over Ottke/Beyer would have made him a BIGGER name than some, not all of his defences. It certainly would have given him a respect that US fight fans and press didn't have for Jones cause he wouldn't go to Germany to take on Michaelswecki. It would have given him a bargining tool, that he didn't have till 2006.

Wrists wrote:Stu - you are becoming an opposite version of Max Molenyuex!!!!

Whilst there is a lot of merit in what you say you reveal your true self by arguing that JC v Kessler was a draw!!

feck me!! it was not even close

We can argue until the cows come home but the facts speak for themselves:

Kessler
Hopkins
Lacy
Reid
Eubank
Brewer
Mitchell
Woodhall

This is like a who's who of 168-175lbers in the last 10 years and Joe has beaten them all

Ottke - why the assumption that it is Joe's fault the fight never took place, although if it did Joe wins very easily

Honestly Stu whilst you argue very well some of your views are very distorted

Kessler fight a draw!! - dear me, back to the drawing board me thinks

Kevin

That is not a who's who Kev. Its a who was or a who nearly was or a who was til Ottke beat him.

DavidPayne wrote:Both came through against rugged fighters like Klitschko (Bika) ..

Your stretching. All of Calzaghe's opponents up until Lacy were coming off losses in their last fight of significance, you can't say this about Lennox.

Autobarn wrote: Tate basically cut & stopped Ottke. Ottke got away with some sort of technical decision, no contest - whatever he kpet the title and had a big rematch. Tate was beaten by Julian Jackson in about '93. He was well past it when Ottke fought him.

Ottke I doubt would have been utterly dominant vs Siaca, Andrade, Beyer, Sartison...With Ottke, every decent foe was peck and poke, life and death. Kessler can hold the middle of the ring and break apart a good opponent's face.

I think super middle's going to be excellent. Will be very hard to get the WBO and IBF champs in the mix as they wil want to dominate at home (Germany, Canada). Pavlik, Taylor, Abraham will need super middle belts sooner or later, Showtime seem pretty big on Dirrell, Ward is progressing nicely, Jacobs looking promising. I think things always seem to happen, when the Yanks want the fights and the money's there.

Okay so Ottke got a TD on a fight he was clearly winning, and then ruled out the controvesy by giving Tate a rematch and winning widely on points.... whats the problem here. Reid/Hopkins rematch anyone?

So you go on opponents Ottke never faced and say "he would have had problems", but then their actual common opponent he stopped..... Ottke wasn't pretty but was effective and was difficult to beat. Styles for me is the lesser point of the arguement. I would have liked to have seen Joe vs Ottke cause it would have been a interesting and hard fight to pick - as Starie and Mitchell testified... Reid didn't mind.

Yeh that was a stretch that one.

Still blind to Klitschko's greatness here in sunny Haverhill.

stujones wrote:

Autobarn wrote: Tate basically cut & stopped Ottke. Ottke got away with some sort of technical decision, no contest - whatever he kpet the title and had a big rematch. Tate was beaten by Julian Jackson in about '93. He was well past it when Ottke fought him.

Ottke I doubt would have been utterly dominant vs Siaca, Andrade, Beyer, Sartison...With Ottke, every decent foe was peck and poke, life and death. Kessler can hold the middle of the ring and break apart a good opponent's face.

I think super middle's going to be excellent. Will be very hard to get the WBO and IBF champs in the mix as they wil want to dominate at home (Germany, Canada). Pavlik, Taylor, Abraham will need super middle belts sooner or later, Showtime seem pretty big on Dirrell, Ward is progressing nicely, Jacobs looking promising. I think things always seem to happen, when the Yanks want the fights and the money's there.

Okay so Ottke got a TD on a fight he was clearly winning, and then ruled out the controvesy by giving Tate a rematch and winning widely on points.... whats the problem here. Reid/Hopkins rematch anyone?

So you go on opponents Ottke never faced and say "he would have had problems", but then their actual common opponent he stopped..... Ottke wasn't pretty but was effective and was difficult to beat. Styles for me is the lesser point of the arguement. I would have liked to have seen Joe vs Ottke cause it would have been a interesting and hard fight to pick - as Starie and Mitchell testified... Reid didn't mind.

Kessler does look in a different class to Ottke. If Ottke faced a good fighter, he only just beat them or had to get some kind of help. Reid, Larsen, Branco, Brewer, Brewer, Mitchell, Tate 1 - all very close or some kind of mass crisis for Sven. The guy couldn't even stop Pudwill and Lloyd Bryan. Ottke was a good boxer but I don't see him as bein quite in Kessler's league.

I'll ask again, would you rather Joe had a win over Ottke, or over Kessler, a man who unified 2 belts without a pinch of controversy.

I'm just trying to be realistic. We need to meet halfway between what we'd liked to have seen, with what is practical. Ok takes down the German champs, provided there's no robbery (DQ for slapping?), uses his hands up repelling challenges of Danny Green, Catley and Lucas.

Hopkins would still have decided against coming over to the UK, RJJ was unstoppable still up to 2002 so that's not a wise fight.

Go up to fight Glen Johnson in '03 or '04, for a belt RJJ vacated? That rules out Lacy and Kessler, in '06 and '07, no?

Calzaghe would have eventually faded defending all the 168 titles - if he had them - and the big fights with Kessler & Lacy - that made him a major draw in the UK, and earned him big stages in America - in which they had to come to him, wouldn't have happened.