BoxRec

How that was not ruled a knock down....the whole circumstances of that
fight was daft and in Ellis favour.

Patterson kicked Ellis ass. It was a joke that decision. I cant stand the post fight interview where Angelo Dundee is smirking his ass off and excited like a little schoolgirl. Its unreal, youd think Ellis had just knocked out Jack Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, and Marciano in consecutive first rounds. They knew they got a gift.

Seems like I'm in the vast minority. I'd love for people to post their round by round scorecards for scrutiny. When I have time I'll rewatch the fight and post mine.

DF

here is mine from my lill scoring book...
I shall like to re watch and re score it soon see if I see it
any different.
I did it 10 point must but on a round basis I had it..

For Patterson I gave him rounds (2,4,5,6,8,10,11,13,14)

For Ellis (1,3,7,9,12)

I had the 15th even.

Round 14 should have seen a KD for Patterson.

I don't know the scores of these fights, I do know Mr. Gibbs made Big Joe a winner by a quarter of a point in front of a pro Cooper crowd. That's the only thing that made this fight controversial.

Cooper V Bugner - I score it for Bugner one day and Cooper the next. Always with the volume down!

Holmes V Michael Spinks 11 - I just rememmber thinking there was no way Holmes would get the nod at the time and he didn't. I only ever saw this fight once, and wasn't as well versed on scoring then as I am now, so I may be way off the mark when I say Holmes should've got the nod in this one. I do know he did very little in the first fight.

Just re-watched Byrd-Oquendo . . .another one many may disagree with.

I had it 6-6 a DRAW. Merchant and Lederman have always been anti-Byrd and his scorecard was def. too onsided towards Oquendo. I think it really could've gone either way.

Still have to rewatch Ellis-Patterson . . .hope to do it this week and I'll post my scorecard.

Been a lifetime since I saw it, but I remember scoring Mayorga-Forrest II 7-5, 115-113, Forrest.

Anyone else have a card (or even general feeling) for this close one?

I thought Mayorga won Forrest 2 as well as Spinks.

I don't remember my exact score either but I had Forrest getting robbed in the Mayorga rematch.

I guess some of the Ali/Clay fghts were controversial such as
his pre-championship win over Doug Jones, the split glove shenanigans in the Henry Cooper
bout, the gift decision over Jimmy Young and the second Ali - Spinks title fight.

Some say the second Ali-Liston fight was sketchy, but I believe Ali scored the perfect knockout with a perfect well-timed right hand.

Then in 1968, there was the Jimmy Ellis victory over Floyd Patterson
for a piece of the heavyweight title "stolen" from Muhammed Ali
over the controversial Vietnam War fiasco.

Ive seen the complete, unedited film of the Ali-Cooper fight and the split glove is probably one of the biggest non-issues in boxing history. If, IF, it bought Ali any time at all it might have been a few seconds at most. Nothing more. I dont Ali was a part of the dirty business of the second Liston fight but having seen Liston take the bombs of Cleveland Williams flush as well some other pretty good bangers I dont see that KO being legit at all. That fight was thrown.

klompton wrote:Ive seen the complete, unedited film of the Ali-Cooper fight and the split glove is probably one of the biggest non-issues in boxing history. If, IF, it bought Ali any time at all it might have been a few seconds at most. Nothing more. I dont Ali was a part of the dirty business of the second Liston fight but having seen Liston take the bombs of Cleveland Williams flush as well some other pretty good bangers I dont see that KO being legit at all. That fight was thrown.

Only in the sense that Liston knew he was in for another arse kicking and bailed out early.

Any news on the book?

Can't do exact scores at this point.


Leonard v Hagler ... Leonard Wide

De La Hoya v Strum ... Strum close

Mayweather v Castillo ... Mayweather close

Hearns v Leonard 2 ... Draw

De La Hoya v Quartey ... De La Hoya close and questionable

De La Hoya v Whitaker ... De La Hoya close to medium

Trinidad v De La Hoya ... De La Hoya medium to wide.

Ones I missed I don't want to commit without another view.

Close fights that I’ve seen over the last 10 years or so (that I can remember who I had winning)

De La Hoya vs Quartey – Quartey but it was close.
De La Hoya v Trinidad – easy to score, De La Hoya win
Mayweather vs De La Hoya – close win for Mayweather
Pacquiao v Marquez I – Marquez
Pacquiao v Marquez II – Marquez very close
Freitas-Casamayor – Fretias
De La hoya vs Mosely I – Sugar Shane
Joe C vs B – Hop – Joe C



The worst decision I can remember is De La Hoya vs Mosely II. I had Oscar a wide winner in that fight.

Collins2000 wrote:

klompton wrote:Ive seen the complete, unedited film of the Ali-Cooper fight and the split glove is probably one of the biggest non-issues in boxing history. If, IF, it bought Ali any time at all it might have been a few seconds at most. Nothing more. I dont Ali was a part of the dirty business of the second Liston fight but having seen Liston take the bombs of Cleveland Williams flush as well some other pretty good bangers I dont see that KO being legit at all. That fight was thrown.

Only in the sense that Liston knew he was in for another arse kicking and bailed out early.

Any news on the book?

Yeah i agree, Im not saying it was necessarily fixed by outside forces. I just dont think Liston even came close to trying.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:This thread has to be revived from time-to-time, & the Hagler-Antuofermo discussion has ignited it. What've you got, gents? Let's chew some of that fat...

- Don't see any discussion that would improve scoring. I disagree strongly with half the scores on this thread, and all would disagree with half of my scores.

Could easily move past minuscule niggling scoring controversies by training judges to score very close rounds as even so that a fighter has to show some good class over his opponent that everyone can more uniformly agree to.

Always to be disputes, but it's when two score cards are split 118-110 for example as happens too often, that is killing boxing credibility. Another example is the wide scoring variance on the single Hagler/Leonard card that nicks Marvin. Everyone and their mother knew it was a tight fight so Hagler and his fans outraged. Probably most Leonard fans agree that card was out of line, again, these cards are killing boxing credibility.

Two matches that haunt me to this day are: DiNanzio and Medina deserved these wins.

DiNanzio vs. Ayala ESPN2 117-111
Medina vs. Tapia 116-112

Not sure exactly how I scored Whitaker - Chavez but I had Whitaker winning by 2 or 3 rounds.
I also thought Castillo did great against Mayweather the first time and had Casillo winning although I was rooting for Mayweather at the time.

Dianzo-Ayala is right. Ayala got about three or four gifts in a row and that was one of them.

B Hop should have won the Taylor bouts, especially first one.

Gerrie Coetzee vs Renaldo Snipes. It was on rounds. I had it 7-3 Coetzee.

Larry Holmes vs Carl Williams. The Truth by 4pts

James Toney vs Dave Tiberi. Tiberi by 6pts

Michael Spinks vs Eddie Davis. Davis by 2pts

Larry Holmes vs Tim Witherspoon. Holmes by 4pts

Evander Holyfield vs Dwight Muhammad Qawi. Holyfield by 3pts

Michael Dokes vs Mike Weaver. Weaver by 3pts

James Toney vs Terry McGroom. McGroom by 2pts

Seamus wrote: Larry Holmes vs Tim Witherspoon. Holmes by 4pts

This one always shocks me. I had Witherspoon so far ahead I stopped scoring in the later rounds. Holmes did next to nothing in this fight and the relatively inexperienced Witherspoon took him to school IMO.

Witherspoon had the best round of the fight, the 9th I think, when he had Holmes hurt a bit. He showboated a little the next round, but other than that I didn't think he did enough to win. He picked off Holmes jab fairly well, but didn't do much else I thought.

klompton wrote:

Seamus wrote: Larry Holmes vs Tim Witherspoon. Holmes by 4pts

This one always shocks me. I had Witherspoon so far ahead I stopped scoring in the later rounds. Holmes did next to nothing in this fight and the relatively inexperienced Witherspoon took him to school IMO.

- Thought it a bit closer, but Spoon showed he was the goods for this fight. Had he not had such a lazy reputation, with a bit more effort he could've had Larry dragging pretty bad those last rounds which might've turn the judges his way.

Finished watching the Quarry'Floyd 2 elimination bout that Jerry won a MD. Looked like Quarry boxed beautifully, countered, and knocked Floyd down and around the whole of the fight, again, perhaps a bit too relaxed for a title fight as Floyd was giving it his all in spite of losing most every round on my cards.

Perception becomes reality in this world. Cops arrest poor folk for looking mean and fitting a description, so up the river they go. Leonard had the right idea with popcorn flurries that ohhed and ahhhed the judges to swing them his way.

klompton wrote:

Seamus wrote: Larry Holmes vs Tim Witherspoon. Holmes by 4pts

This one always shocks me. I had Witherspoon so far ahead I stopped scoring in the later rounds. Holmes did next to nothing in this fight and the relatively inexperienced Witherspoon took him to school IMO.

Really? I thought it was a close and excellent fight with both men having good patches but never quite gettin on top perhaps best exemplified in the 9th (I think) were both hurt each other at the same point and though both looked ready to go neither could pull the trigger.

A draw or a close win for either man seems like a true picture of that bout rather than a one-sided schooling you saw. I had Witherspoon a narrow winner. Even though he didn't get the nod he set himself by that great performance for a lot of good money fights.

A rematch would have been great but it didn't pan out that way. No doubt BRR will tell us because Holmes didn't want it but it wasn't that simple. As is often the case in boxing if you scratch beneath the surface. As a boxing historian you will be well aware of this.