BoxRec

Well, some men ya just can't reach. Lou Nova! Come on, Holyfield would beat the ever living shit out of Lou Nova. Billy Conn was an all-time great at LHW and he damn near beat Louis in their first fight but Holyfield would beat the shit out of Conn as well. I love the old-timers but don't be delusional.

Look, I'm a former gym rat. 34 years old and over 200Lbs now. At age 23-24 I was around 175Lbs. I'm not fat now... some men get bigger, even in their 20's. If you lift weights you can get bigger. If you're bigger, you're bigger. If it's by lifting weights that's natural in my opinion. Like I stated before it really doesn't matter... but I'll never say that a prime Louis was bigger than a prime Holyfield because he wasn't. Holyfield always had a big frame, big arms, chest, neck, shoulders, back, etc. Holyfield had the bigger upper body and was the stronger guy. He could take more punishment as well. If he juiced he juiced, whatever.

It's insulting to hear you guys say that Lou Nova and company would give Holyfield a war. I question your boxing knowledge if you really believe that.

No disrespect to Nova, he had a good career but he was not great. Conn was awesome but not as a HW with the exception of the first fight with Louis. Nova retired at 32 with a record of 49-9-5 (32). Not a bad record but he was stopped 6 times before he retired. At age 32 Holyfield had yet to be knocked out despite fighting the likes of Foreman, Holmes, and Bowe x2. Again, Holyfield is being judged on the performances he had while past his prime. If he would have just lost all of his fights after the first Moorer fight I think people would be easier on him. Holyfield had some good performances past his best days (W10 Mercer, KO11 Tyson, KO8 Moorer, etc) and because of this his prime is misjudged. Do you all understand that Ali was only 39 (almost 40) when he looked like shit vs. Berbick? He was a year younger than that when he looked totally washed up vs. Holmes. You guys are talking about things Holyfield did or didn't do when he was well over 40 for fvcks sake!

Holyfield vs. Louis? Anything could happen. Holyfield vs. Conn or Nova? Holyfield no doubt!

Hookie74 wrote:No disrespect to Nova, he had a good career but he was not great. Conn was awesome but not as a HW with the exception of the first fight with Louis. Nova retired at 32 with a record of 49-9-5 (32). Not a bad record but he was stopped 6 times before he retired.

Well, at least you're good at looking up records.

Hookie74 wrote:Do you all understand that Ali was only 39 (almost 40) when he looked like shit vs. Berbick? He was a year younger than that when he looked totally washed up vs. Holmes.

And do you realise that Ali was already suffering from the affects of Parkinsons when he fought Holmes and Berbick. Oh yeah, I guess that isn't noted in Ali's Boxrec record.

Hookie74 wrote:Holyfield vs. Conn or Nova? Holyfield no doubt!

The HW Holyfield would most likely have had problems with a prime Conn. If you look beyond the simple Boxrec entries at the actual styles and performances you would know that Holyfield always had more problems with guys who could move and throw a jab. And Conn, despite his small size, could do both quite well.

Hounddog, Louis KO 10.

Hookie74 wrote:You guys are talking about things Holyfield did or didn't do when he was well over 40 for fvcks sake!

--- Wouldn't have to put him down if Uncle Albert would just disappear.

Instead they drag his carcass out to be propped up for farce and then start crying about how he's being robbed. Facts are that he's robbing good young heavies from opportunity.

Don't be crying about how sorry the heavyweight division is when farce is what you support.

Hookie74 wrote:Well, some men ya just can't reach. Lou Nova! Come on, Holyfield would beat the ever living shit out of Lou Nova. Billy Conn was an all-time great at LHW and he damn near beat Louis in their first fight but Holyfield would beat the shit out of Conn as well. I love the old-timers but don't be delusional.

Look, I'm a former gym rat. 34 years old and over 200Lbs now. At age 23-24 I was around 175Lbs. I'm not fat now... some men get bigger, even in their 20's. If you lift weights you can get bigger. If you're bigger, you're bigger. If it's by lifting weights that's natural in my opinion. Like I stated before it really doesn't matter... but I'll never say that a prime Louis was bigger than a prime Holyfield because he wasn't. Holyfield always had a big frame, big arms, chest, neck, shoulders, back, etc. Holyfield had the bigger upper body and was the stronger guy. He could take more punishment as well. If he juiced he juiced, whatever.

It's insulting to hear you guys say that Lou Nova and company would give Holyfield a war. I question your boxing knowledge if you really believe that.

No disrespect to Nova, he had a good career but he was not great. Conn was awesome but not as a HW with the exception of the first fight with Louis. Nova retired at 32 with a record of 49-9-5 (32). Not a bad record but he was stopped 6 times before he retired. At age 32 Holyfield had yet to be knocked out despite fighting the likes of Foreman, Holmes, and Bowe x2. Again, Holyfield is being judged on the performances he had while past his prime. If he would have just lost all of his fights after the first Moorer fight I think people would be easier on him. Holyfield had some good performances past his best days (W10 Mercer, KO11 Tyson, KO8 Moorer, etc) and because of this his prime is misjudged. Do you all understand that Ali was only 39 (almost 40) when he looked like shit vs. Berbick? He was a year younger than that when he looked totally washed up vs. Holmes. You guys are talking about things Holyfield did or didn't do when he was well over 40 for fvcks sake!

Holyfield vs. Louis? Anything could happen. Holyfield vs. Conn or Nova? Holyfield no doubt!

Get real, mate

Conn-Holyfield at Cruiser would've been a sensation, & no one could be sure-footed about the outcome ahead of time.

You're desperately unfamiliar with Conn's Light-Heavyweight credentials.

I'm not desperately unfamiliar with anything pertaining to boxing. Don't insult me like that. I know much about the careers and lives of Louis, Conn, Ali, Nova (who doesn't deserved to be mentioned with these men), etc. Ezzard Charles is my favorite fighter of all-time by the way.

I agree... Ali was washed up and possibly already suffering from Parkinsons Syndrome (not disease btw). You all are missing the point... the point is many of you mention things that Holyfield did in the ring when he was 35, 40, even 46 years old like he was in his prime. It's ridiculous.

Again, Louis was awesome and maybe he would have beat Holyfield in this "Mythical Match", but some of you are acting like Holyfield was no match for Louis and that is insane in my opinion. Conn did nothing beyond LHW to make somebody think he could beat Holyfield... except for give Louis hell in their first fight. That's like saying Buster Douglas could have beat somebody like Frazier or Foreman based on his fight vs. Tyson. Hell, that's not even a good example... at least Douglas did something at HW.

Conn was amazing, but he was not an amazing HW. He rose to the occassion vs. Louis in '41 but let's not get carried away. A better fight would be Conn vs. Ezzard Charles. Yep, I'll take Charles by decision. I rate Charles #1 at LHW all-time btw.

thats the point though,he rose to the occasion......

i mean,a lot of people love the old fighters,and "insert old fighter x would have killed young fighter y here" but shit,holyfield would have lived with ANYONE......i mean lewis was a monster,bassically a big hearns,and holyfield fought close with him once(no,not twice)...... you think louis would have demolished him? NOONE demolishes evander.....and in a war.....he might beat louis.

jesus.....theres being ridiculous.....then theres....


is this my 1000 sth post? i shouldve checked first,damnit

bobcat wrote:thats the point though,he rose to the occasion......

i mean,a lot of people love the old fighters,and "insert old fighter x would have killed young fighter y here" but shit,holyfield would have lived with ANYONE......i mean lewis was a monster,bassically a big hearns,and holyfield fought close with him once(no,not twice)...... you think louis would have demolished him? NOONE demolishes evander.....and in a war.....he might beat louis.

jesus.....theres being ridiculous.....then theres....


is this my 1000 sth post? i shouldve checked first,damnit

good 999th post

bobcat wrote:thats the point though,he rose to the occasion......

i mean,a lot of people love the old fighters,and "insert old fighter x would have killed young fighter y here" but shit,holyfield would have lived with ANYONE......i mean lewis was a monster,bassically a big hearns,and holyfield fought close with him once(no,not twice)...... you think louis would have demolished him? NOONE demolishes evander.....and in a war.....he might beat louis.

jesus.....theres being ridiculous.....then theres....


is this my 1000 sth post? i shouldve checked first,damnit

If Bert Cooper could knock Evander down and hurt him bad Louis could do it one step better.

Baby Face Finster wrote:

bobcat wrote:thats the point though,he rose to the occasion......

i mean,a lot of people love the old fighters,and "insert old fighter x would have killed young fighter y here" but shit,holyfield would have lived with ANYONE......i mean lewis was a monster,bassically a big hearns,and holyfield fought close with him once(no,not twice)...... you think louis would have demolished him? NOONE demolishes evander.....and in a war.....he might beat louis.

jesus.....theres being ridiculous.....then theres....


is this my 1000 sth post? i shouldve checked first,damnit

If Bert Cooper could knock Evander down and hurt him bad Louis could do it one step better.

you just want me to waste my 1k post,dont you?

ok,bert cooper knocked him down.......isnt cooper bassically louis's size? i mean,you can say what you want,these people just werent the same size.

you think holy wouldnt have lasted 12........15......20,for that matter? he would finish on his feet,and yeah hed probably lose.

Do you honesty want to compare Bert Cooper to Joe Louis?

I knew somebody would mention Cooper. That shows that people don't read the other posts in the thread. I've addressed this fight several times in this thread. Anyway, yeah... Cooper caught Holyfield with a good shot and hurt him. He had a good 1/2 round vs. Holyfield. Holyfield fought down to the level of fighter he was facing that night. Was it dumb? Yes, but that's what happened. Holyfield wanted to look good fighting in his backyard but he got sloppy. He dropped Cooper in the 1st with a body shot and felt it would be an easy night... he was wrong. Did this ever happen to Louis? Sure did, several times. Look back in the thread... I mention all that. This is based on both fighters being at there best. On Louis or Holyfield's best nights they don't get dropped by B,C,D... Z level fighters.

Baby Face Finster wrote:Do you honesty want to compare Bert Cooper to Joe Louis?

yeah,i am comparing them.

cooper was about louis's size,was he not? a big puncher and fast,at cw.

i mean,lewis was a frigging murderer,and big as hell,but evander lasted 24 rounds with him.(and fought him close the second time)

you ever seen holyfield punk of of a fight? i havent.

Louis would have beat Cooper pretty easily. Cooper was probably as good as many of the fighters Louis faced though. When Cooper was in shape (physically and mentally) he was a handful to say the least. He gave Mercer, Holyfield, and Moorer fits in losing efforts. He beat H. Tillman, T. Booze, W. Dewitt, O. Norris, J. Hipp and others when he was 100%. He exposed frauds like J. Savage (KO1) and R. Melito (KO1) despite being past his prime.

Remember Savage? Savage had 41 wins in a row as a bare knuckle fighter, all by KO naturally.

Cooper had a drug problem and sometimes came in out of shape and he paid for it like when he fought Bowe and Foreman. He was stopped in 2 rounds by Bowe. He was also stopped in 2 rounds by Foreman. Cooper at his best wouldn't have done much better but he didn't give himself much of a chance vs. these men by not training hard.

Other times he just got beat... LKoby8 Carl Williams for example.

Cooper vs. Billy Conn? Hmmm... Conn was by far the better boxer. Conn was a couple of inches taller at 6'1 1/2" but Cooper had a considerable longer reach at 78 1/2" Cooper was in good shape right around 200Lbs. Conn would weigh about 175-180Lbs. for the fight. Cooper would have a punchers chance but Conn would most likely win by comfortable decision.

bigstinkybug wrote:*Holyfield vs any great heavyweight of the past would be great...Against Louis..it would be close...Not many giving Holy much of a chance...I'd call it a toss-up,but it wouldn't take much for me to change my mind.
Holyfield fought alot of big great fighters...Could Louis take Holy's punch? Louis was 210 at his heaviest...but was 200 on average. Could Holy take Joe's punch.?.sure he could..he took Tyson's,Bowes,Lennox's.etc,etc..we saw Joe get Ko'ed by a much less puncher in Schmelling. Also,Joe had alot of problems with boxers..a known fact..Holyfield can box...it would be a fight that a prime Holy could win as much as lose...certainly not the landslide for Joe,as shown on this thread.

Louis also knocked out many good 'boxers' . .

The boxers that troubled Louis (Conn, Walcott) were far slicker than Holyfield ever was. Can Louis take Holyfield's punch? He took big shots from far greater punchers than Holyfield from Buddy and Max Baer, Galento etc. Schmeling was definitely a bigger one-shot puncher than Evander and he hammered a 21 year old Louis with his best shots for over 7 rounds before Louis caved in.

Saying Holyfield goes the distance with Louis b/c he went the distance with bigger guys who could punch (Bowe and Lennox) is not how boxing works. Styles make fights and Louis was a far more precise, faster and fluid puncher than Bowe and Lewis were, and in the case of Lennox he didn't fight an offensive fight vs Holyfield b/c he didn't trust his chin to hold up in a war.

And BTW Hookie, suggesting Bert Cooper would have a snowball's chance in hell vs Billy Conn is just absurd.

As for missing the point, Hookie, I have repeatedly said, "Conn vs. Holyfield AT CRUISER" & your invariable response is in relation to a fight at Heavyweight.

The Bug just mentioned something I alluded to in one of my previous posts, which I again (in vain) will highlight --- "Sure, Evander could take Joe's punch...he took punches from big, hard-hitters like Bowe & Tyson..."

Again, as I pointed out (& Dempsey has since done) people often think along these lines, & it's erroneous, because it fails to factor in Louis' precision, handspeed, &, above all, combination-punching. Louis' raw power is comparable to Tyson, & better than Bowe's (largely, as a result of superior torque). However, the above factors I mentioned make him far & away a more lethal offensive fighter than Bowe, or a fading Tyson (though Holyfield was also faded, at that time). Many people will never grasp this relatively simple fact.

If Holyfield found a way to beat Louis, would I be shocked? Well, no. I grew up watching & loving Commander 'Vander for precisely his will & courage, & his capacity to find a way against the odds, but I would be fairly surprised, in this case. People always want to speak of old-timers becoming exaggerated with time, & I don't disagree with that notion --- I just wish those same people would acknowledge there exists an equally ubiquitous & powerful bent in the opposite direction, favouring modern fighters.

"Holyfield a far bigger puncher than Schmeling," & Lewis, the most cautious Heavyweight champion of the past twenty years, "a murderer & a friggin' monster" are my favourite one-liners from the, "all old-timers get a free pass" brigade so far D

Ok, ok... Holyfield vs. Conn at 190Lbs. Holyfield by close decision. Holyfield only had 18 fights at CW but 6 of them were World title fights. He did beat Qawi x2, Ocasio, DeLeon, Tillman, Parkey, and Booze among others. He also unified the IBF, WBA, and WBC titles.

As for Cooper vs. Conn. In no way did I say that Cooper had a legit chance of beating Conn. I said he had a punchers chance... almost every fighter has that. Conn would box circles around Cooper. I don't think he could stop Cooper though. Conn wasn't a big puncher even at LHW.

Schmeling was a good puncher but how many big time fighters did he KO? He stopped Louis in the 12th round. He stopped former WW and MW champ Mickey Walker in the 8th. He was the only man to stop Young Stribling (KO15) it was Stribling's 268th pro fight.

More power than Holyfield? I'm not convinced. Next topic

Hookie74 wrote:I never said he starved himself or struggled to make 190Lbs.... I just said he lost a good bit. By the time he unified the CW World titles he was a 200Lber. He weighed in at 202Lbs (totally ripped) for his first HW fight which was just 3 months after his last CW fight. He wighed in at 210Lbs (totally ripped) 5 months after that. Joe Louis was in good shape at 200Lbs. When Louis came in over 200Lbs... he was coming in a little bit over his best weight.

Like I said before... the size difference wasn't much but Louis was not the bigger man. Holyfield had a much bigger neck (almost 20"), bigger arms, bigger chest... he was just a little bigger in my opinion. It really doesn't matter though.

Yeah that's pretty much a fact that he was bigger.

That wasn't the issue, though. The issue was my contention that Holyfield, "was a far bigger" puncher than Schmeling. Personally, I see nothing in Holyfield's arsenal which appears more heavy-handed (at Heavyweight) than Schmeling's right hand, but even if one disagreed, I think it's a woeful stretch to say Holyfield hit much harder.

If --- if Holyfield hit harder as a Heavyweight than did Schmeling --- it wasn't by much. I think between that & the Conn-Cooper aside, though, we're getting off-point. Both men had their off-nights, it's just that Holyfield had far more of them, & when he was off, he was more likely to lose than was Louis. Holyfield has more big, legitimate names on his resume, but I think Louis' super-natural longevity & under-sold list of opposition more than even that out.

Wouldn't have been a bad fight to watch, whatever your opinion on Louis-Holyfield.

You mention Buddy and Max Baer. You mention two ton Tony. Did they punch harder than Holyfield? One single shot... maybe yes (Buddy and Max, not Tony). Could they keep it up for the whole fight? No. Were they accurate? No. Would Holyfield have a better chance of stopping Louis? Yes.

Two Ton Tony!!! Who did he ever knock out impressively? As a matter of fact... how many good fighters did Buddy Baer knock out impressively?

Louis said Jethro's Daddy was the hardest puncher he faced btw. On a side not Briggs said Foreman punched him harder than Lewis did even though Foreman didn't put him down.

The good combination of size, strength, skill, speed, power, and durability is what Holyfield had over these men. Walcott had all of these things but Holyfield was more durable than Walcott and more consistent.

Holyfield would have beat the Baer brothers with ease. Maybe he wouldn't have done it as brutally but he would have done it.

I can't get over the talk up of Tony Galento! Galento was a joke. A 5'9" fat ass with no stamina, defensive skills, or ring generalship. He fouled Nova for 13 1/2 rounds resulting in a 14th round stoppage. This stoppage had nothing to do with Galento's punching power. So, who else did he KO?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:That wasn't the issue, though. The issue was my contention that Holyfield, "was a far bigger" puncher than Schmeling. Personally, I see nothing in Holyfield's arsenal which appears more heavy-handed (at Heavyweight) than Schmeling's right hand, but even if one disagreed, I think it's a woeful stretch to say Holyfield hit much harder.

If --- if Holyfield hit harder as a Heavyweight than did Schmeling --- it wasn't by much. I think between that & the Conn-Cooper aside, though, we're getting off-point. Both men had their off-nights, it's just that Holyfield had far more of them, & when he was off, he was more likely to lose than was Louis. Holyfield has more big, legitimate names on his resume, but I think Louis' super-natural longevity & under-sold list of opposition more than even that out.

Wouldn't have been a bad fight to watch, whatever your opinion on Louis-Holyfield.

Hey, good post. I agree with most of what you say in here

Holyfield and Foreman are the only two men who stopped Qawi. Qawi went 15 rounds with M. Spinks and Holyfield (in Holyfield's 12th pro fight). Holyfield stopped Qawi in 4 when they fought a rematch. Foreman stopped him in 7.

Holyfield didn't finish guys like Louis did but he hurt almost everybody he fought during his prime and even a little beyond.

Foreman has a head made of granite but Holyfield rocked him several times.

Bowe remains 1 out of only 6 HW champs who were never stopped but Holyfield rocked him in all of their fights and dropped him with a single left hook in their third fight. Tunney, Marciano, Toney, Valuev, Chagaev, Ibragimov, are the other HW champs who were not stopped.

He was the first man to drop Mercer even if it wasn't a great knockdown.

He stopped Iron Mike Tyson.

Moorer's chin was not the best but he had a good mix of power, accuracy, and skill all from a southpaw stance that allowed him to at least go the distance with every fighter he faced with the exception of Foreman, Holyfield (rematch), and Tua.

K, I'm done for a minute.

Hookie74 wrote: Tunney, Marciano, Toney, Valuev, Chagaev, Ibragimov, are the other HW champs who were not stopped.

--- Need to step away from the precipice lest you fall to a fatality.

TwoTon Toney can't hold the heavyweight jock strap of Galento and neither were champs.

At anyrate, Schmeling has a KO% considerably above Evan Field, not to mention 14 extra wins, the same losses, plus two extra draws. Max even fought into his his 40s with mixed results, so now everything is sorted.

Hey, I know it's tough facing the reality that turned out to be Evan Field, but there's hope in the future for so many up and coming heavies, so don't give up yet.