Lightweights

[Seamus]

Roberto Duran benefits most from the fact that Benny Leonard and Henry Armstrong fought in the first half of the 20th century and he's far more familiar to the later generations. Was he a very dominant champion ? Absolutely. Was the caliber of his opposition as good as Benny Leonard's ? Quite honestly, it wasen't even close. And are Leonard and Armstrong's accomplishments very overlooked when compared with Duran's at LW ? Let's see, Duran moves up to Welterweight because he's outgrown the LW division, has several fights and then wins a close decision over Sugar Ray Leonard. Then guys on BoxRec go on adnauseum about how a Lightweight beat an alltime great Welterweight(actually Duran was a half pound heavier). How often though, do we talk about how Henry Armstrong at less than 135, an actual LW, not an ex-LW like Duran, went up to WW and beat the outstanding Barney Ross so bad, that Ross had to beg the referee in the late rounds, not to stop the fight so he could keep his record of never having been stopped. Then Armstrong beat 4 more WW's for the title while he came in as an actual Lightweight. As for Benny Leonard fighting guys above his weight, he took 4 out of 4 from Soldier Bartfield, a guy good enough to beat 3 HOF'ers, and fight for a world title, AND who was basically a Middleweight, while Leonard was an LW.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I've never doubted it, Seamus. There are just so many forty-something posting out there through whose posts you can see they grew up watching Duran. There are so damn many of them. I've no doubt whatsoever it's a prominent issue in objective assessment of great Lightweights.

[Ambling Alp]

Joe Gans easily had a better lightweight competition than Ike Williams.

Have to strongly disagree with that. Gans was a little better than Williams, but he didn't fight better competition.

Williams fought in probably the strongest era ever in the lightweight divsion.
Among others, Williams fought Sammy Angott,(3 times) Bob Montgomery(twice), Beau Jack (twice), and Jimmy Carter.

[ringsider]

I've never doubted it, Seamus. There are just so many forty-something posting out there through whose posts you can see they grew up watching Duran. There are so damn many of them. I've no doubt whatsoever it's a prominent issue in objective assessment of great Lightweights.

Ahhhh BS.....I've seen some of those old tapes with Benny Leonard, and he ain't beating Duran on his best day at LW. Armstrong maybe.....but Leonard no way.

[Senya13]

First some of the fights you list for Williams at lightweight, were actually above that limit. Second, I'll take lightweights of 1895-1910 era over any other era you choose.
Joe Gans, Packey McFarland, Kid Lavigne, Young Griffo, Frank Erne, Jimmy Britt, Freddie Welsh, Ad Wolgast, Battling Nelson, Danny Duane, New York Jack O'Brien, Joe Walcott (could still make LW in 1895-96), George McFadden, Owen Moran, Kid McPartland, Dal Hawkins, Spike Sullivan, Wilmington Jack Daly, Owen Ziegler, William Kid Parker, Willie Fitzgerald, Jack Blackburn (could make lw), Dave Holly (could make lw), Tommy White, Bobby Dobbs, Harry Lewis, probably forgetting some names.
Williams' doesn't come anywhere close.

[raylawpc]

First some of the fights you list for Williams at lightweight, were actually above that limit. Second, I'll take lightweights of 1895-1910 era over any other era you choose.
Joe Gans, Packey McFarland, Kid Lavigne, Young Griffo, Frank Erne, Jimmy Britt, Freddie Welsh, Ad Wolgast, Battling Nelson, New York Jack O'Brien, Joe Walcott (could still make LW in 1895-96), George McFadden, Owen Moran, Kid McPartland, Dal Hawkins, Spike Sullivan, Wilmington Jack Daly, Owen Ziegler, William Kid Parker, Willie Fitzgerald, Jack Blackburn (could make lw), Dave Holly (could make lw), Tommy White, Bobby Dobbs, Harry Lewis, probably forgetting some names.
Williams' doesn't come anywhere close.

Right on, Senya, right on!!

The lightweight division at that time was unbelievably deep in terms of talent.

[raylawpc]

I've never doubted it, Seamus. There are just so many forty-something posting out there through whose posts you can see they grew up watching Duran. There are so damn many of them. I've no doubt whatsoever it's a prominent issue in objective assessment of great Lightweights.

Ahhhh BS.....I've seen some of those old tapes with Benny Leonard, and he ain't beating Duran on his best day at LW. Armstrong maybe.....but Leonard no way.

Well, Ray Arcel, the guy who knew and trained both Leonard and Duran, picked Leonard. But what would he know . . .

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ray, if you please, I have Ringsider on, 'Ignore' specifically so I don't have to endure seeing his retarded, "contributions."

Please, a little consideration

[ringsider]

I've never doubted it, Seamus. There are just so many forty-something posting out there through whose posts you can see they grew up watching Duran. There are so damn many of them. I've no doubt whatsoever it's a prominent issue in objective assessment of great Lightweights.

Ahhhh BS.....I've seen some of those old tapes with Benny Leonard, and he ain't beating Duran on his best day at LW. Armstrong maybe.....but Leonard no way.

Well, Ray Arcel, the guy who knew and trained both Leonard and Duran, picked Leonard. But what would he know . . .

I did not know....but that is pretty interesting coming from a guy who worked with both. Seeing some old footage of Leonard from years back though and comparing it to Duran, it looks like Duran would kill him.

Goodnight Irene uses the ignore function because he cannot tolerate an opinion on a fighter or any idea that may differ from his.....the true markings of a coward.

[Ambling Alp]

First some of the fights you list for Williams at lightweight, were actually above that limit. Second, I'll take lightweights of 1895-1910 era over any other era you choose.
Joe Gans, Packey McFarland, Kid Lavigne, Young Griffo, Frank Erne, Jimmy Britt, Freddie Welsh, Ad Wolgast, Battling Nelson, Danny Duane, New York Jack O'Brien, Joe Walcott (could still make LW in 1895-96), George McFadden, Owen Moran, Kid McPartland, Dal Hawkins, Spike Sullivan, Wilmington Jack Daly, Owen Ziegler, William Kid Parker, Willie Fitzgerald, Jack Blackburn (could make lw), Dave Holly (could make lw), Tommy White, Bobby Dobbs, Harry Lewis, probably forgetting some names.
Williams' doesn't come anywhere close.

No where close?
I agree that there were some good and great lightweights in Gans' day. However, there were some in Williams day as well.

If you want to take a 15 year period and list good/greatlightweights, then I agree that 1895-1910 was strong.
(It worth mentioning that Gans didn't fight some of of the guys listed. )

However look at 1935-1950:
You had Tony Canzoneri,Lou Ambers,Henry Armstrong, Lew Jenkins, Sammy Angott,Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Jimmy Carter and of course Williams, just to name the best!
To be fair, Williams didn't fight all of them; a few were a little before his time.

You mentioned that some of the fights against other great lightweights were above the limit; fair enough.
However, at lightweight, Williams did fight Jack once, Carter, and Montgomery.
Not to mention he beat Angott when he weighed less than 135 and Angott weighed over 140!
He also lost to Montgomery when he weighed only 131 and Montgomery weighed 137. (Williams won when they both fought within the limit.)

Williams also beat guys like Juan Zurita,Freddie Dawson, Enrigue Bolanas, and Willie Joyce.

[Senya13]

1895-1910 is roughly the era Joe Gans fought in.

Kid Lavigne and Packey McFarland, he could face them, but they didn't want to meet him. Duane lost his chance with unexpected losses, same with NY O'Brien, who got his title shot ahead of Gans, but then started losing fights. Moran grew into lw when Gans was basically retired (altho he still dreamed of returning). Welsh appeared on the scene when Gans was leaving it too.

I'm looking at 1935-50 and I don't see it anywhere close. Armstrong didn't establish himself anything special at lightweight limit (you may say he was weighing a lw when he was fighting ww's, but that's not quite the same, sometimes heavier fighters appear easier for small guy, whereas fighters of his own weight, who are quicker, give him more trouble). Exclude Gans and Williams (even though Gans was considered much more skillful than Williams by contemporaries, and he was more consistent), and what's left at the begining of my list (the cream of the era) and what's on yours? That's not really comparable. McFarland, despite not having a title shot at lw, is better than anybody on your list, including Williams himself. Also, if you want to count Armstrong, who was coming up from featherweight, I can throw McGovern and Attell on my list, and it becomes completely absurd, to even attempt to compare, you could add lw Ross and lw Robinson, and still my list would be considerably ahead, the gap is that wide. As much as I like Ross (one of my fav's), Gans, McFarland and Attell were more skillful than him, and Gans and McFarland were more skillful than even prime Robinson.

[Adamj1987]

duran by a country mile

[Goodnight, Irene]

duran by a country mile

No way. You can't honestly tell me Duran is superior to Gans, Leonard, Williams, Whitaker & by a, "country mile," can you? Really!? If (& it's a questionable if, in my mind) he's the best, it ain't by a lot.

[Seamus]

Don't forget Henry Armstrong either. His brutalizing of Welterweight Barney Ross beats any performance of Duran's at LW by a country mile.

[Ambling Alp]

1895-1910 is roughly the era Joe Gans fought in.

Kid Lavigne and Packey McFarland, he could face them, but they didn't want to meet him. Duane lost his chance with unexpected losses, same with NY O'Brien, who got his title shot ahead of Gans, but then started losing fights. Moran grew into lw when Gans was basically retired (altho he still dreamed of returning). Welsh appeared on the scene when Gans was leaving it too.

I'm looking at 1935-50 and I don't see it anywhere close. Armstrong didn't establish himself anything special at lightweight limit (you may say he was weighing a lw when he was fighting ww's, but that's not quite the same, sometimes heavier fighters appear easier for small guy, whereas fighters of his own weight, who are quicker, give him more trouble). Exclude Gans and Williams (even though Gans was considered much more skillful than Williams by contemporaries, and he was more consistent), and what's left at the begining of my list (the cream of the era) and what's on yours? That's not really comparable. McFarland, despite not having a title shot at lw, is better than anybody on your list, including Williams himself. Also, if you want to count Armstrong, who was coming up from featherweight, I can throw McGovern and Attell on my list, and it becomes completely absurd, to even attempt to compare, you could add lw Ross and lw Robinson, and still my list would be considerably ahead, the gap is that wide. As much as I like Ross (one of my fav's), Gans, McFarland and Attell were more skillful than him, and Gans and McFarland were more skillful than even prime Robinson.

I think I will just say that I disagree with almost all of this and leave it at that. We are miles apart here.

[Ezzard]

Don't think that there's any country mile in it, that's why I picked this topic. I'd say there are 4 or 5 you can legitimately pick, maybe more.

Of course guys who fought in the days of colour TV will always have an advantage.

When I was a kid and did all my research reading and catching what little footage I could (pre-t'internet) most writers reserved top spot for Joe Gans and/or Benny Leonard. Duran was still suffering from the No-Mas hangover and diaretics so his stock was down but IMO does deserve to be mentioned. Whittaker looked flawless but so did Benny and Joe and they have better scalps too, but even so throw Pernell in too.

I overlooked Armstrong but he was a lightweight fighting welters for a while.

[vagabundo55]

Roberto Duran benefits most from the fact that Benny Leonard and Henry Armstrong fought in the first half of the 20th century and he's far more familiar to the later generations. Was he a very dominant champion ? Absolutely. Was the caliber of his opposition as good as Benny Leonard's ? Quite honestly, it wasen't even close. And are Leonard and Armstrong's accomplishments very overlooked when compared with Duran's at LW ? Let's see, Duran moves up to Welterweight because he's outgrown the LW division, has several fights and then wins a close decision over Sugar Ray Leonard. Then guys on BoxRec go on adnauseum about how a Lightweight beat an alltime great Welterweight(actually Duran was a half pound heavier). How often though, do we talk about how Henry Armstrong at less than 135, an actual LW, not an ex-LW like Duran, went up to WW and beat the outstanding Barney Ross so bad, that Ross had to beg the referee in the late rounds, not to stop the fight so he could keep his record of never having been stopped. Then Armstrong beat 4 more WW's for the title while he came in as an actual Lightweight. As for Benny Leonard fighting guys above his weight, he took 4 out of 4 from Soldier Bartfield, a guy good enough to beat 3 HOF'ers, and fight for a world title, AND who was basically a Middleweight, while Leonard was an LW.

Now that can be debated, some might say that old time fighters are over glorified as well in terms of actual accomplishments. Not to take anything away from Leonard but perhaps Duran just made his competition seem not comparable to Leonard's because he blew most away of it at lightweight. Duran was essentially still green in the welterweight division before his fight with Sugar Ray Leonard despite him weighing just half a pound more. Armstrong fought in a time where boxing was a necessity to put food on the table and there were so many fighters that he was able to amass an impressive record, does that necessarily mean that the fighters were better than modern day fighters? Not quite, it meant they fought more sure but it's all a matter of speculation when it really comes down to it. The bottom line truth is that Duran, Leonard, and Armstrong's careers are all comparable and a case can be made for all three fighters, but in the end it comes down to a matter of opinion, of who the masses believe is the best, and you are correct in stating that Duran benefits from having fought in the later half of the 20th century as opposed to the other two, but still you cannot deny that a solid case can be made for Duran, basically, what I mean to say is, just because he is more remembered because more people had a chance to see him in action, does not mean he cannot be compared to the olden time greats. Though, one thing can be said about all three fighters, in the weight class that is lightweight, they were all truly unique.

[Zelley]

And what about Joe Brown and Carlos Ortiz.

[elmersalsa]

And what about Joe Brown and Carlos Ortiz.

Extraordinary lightweight greats...That is all I can say.

[HomicideHenry]

Duran is #1 in my book, but MacFarland is #1 in the lists of guys who never got a title shot.

[Zelley]

ROBERTO DURAN vs BENNY LEONARD

The debate rages over Duran easily defeating Benny Leonard as lightweights.

Both are great champions, and yes by many fight fans they think Duran is an obvious
choice to defeat Benny Leonard. But, that is pure speculation or viewing boxing
through those old familiar "rose tinted glasses".

Now Duran, as a lightweight, may have lost to Benny Leonard if the bout was
held outside of the Panama heat.

For instance, it appears that Portland's Ray Lampkin was winning his fight with Duran
but he was not climatized for the Panama heat. In the later round where Lampkin
was stopped, he was appearing slow due to the effects of Panama heat, not the heat of Duran's
fists. Therefore, the knockout was not pure Duran talent but a combination of circumstances.

Having fought Lampkin twice, I experienced the Portland Panther's ability. I would like
to think Ray is a great boxer, but in reality Lampkin is no Benny Leonard.
Leonard had the tools and the ability to defeat Roberto Duran by a decision in New York City.

[Seamus]

I'm guessing via the process of elimination, that you're Miguel Mayan ?

[ringsider]

Why do people constantly try to use the weather as an excuse for losing in a boxing match?

Sounds like Barry McGuigan "whining syndrome" when he fought Steve Cruz.....

[Collins2000]

I'm guessing via the process of elimination, that you're Miguel Mayan ?

Sounds like he had his brains scrambled just a little.



Too harsh? I'm sure the lads in 'the greatest thread ever' will look after him if he needs a hug.

(Many good lads in that thread so don't read something into my comment that isn't there)

[Zelley]

On any given day it is possible that even a champion like LEW JENKINS could KO
Roberto Duran.