MUHAMMAD ALI/CASSIUS CLAY - Facts, Fantasy & Fiction

[Goodnight, Irene]

this is not a commentary on ali's ability as a fighter:

just this, one more time: ali did NOT dodge the draft. he used his legal right as a concientious (sp?) objector. He was illegaly stripped of his titlle and his right to fight. the government stole his passport so he couldn't fight out of the united states. he sued for these rights to be given back to him and eventually the courts decided in his favor. by that time he lost three of his prime physical years
i have no idea what his motivation was for not going into service - be they his claim for religious reasons or if he just didn't want to get shot by some redneck
"by accident" in some indeavor.

From time to time the federal governent over plays its hand and and the fascist come out of the corner. i am proud to say i was fired from my radio show for giving advice on how to avoid the draft in that illegal viet nam war.

we have had eight years of people in the highest places of government who wore suits and ties but in their hearts they were wearing brown shirts.

damn - i intended to just explain why ali was not a draft dodger- a matter of fact and not opinion- and O got carried away again. well, the hell with it...

It was morally-bankrupt of him to refuse induction.

[Ezzard]

It's a bit much to expect a man to got to war for a country that discriminates against his race of people.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It's a bit much for a man who's enjoyed the many wonderful freedoms of being an American citizen (yes, even a black citizen, circa-1960's) & who calls one country, "home" to say he won't fight for it.

Don't want to fight? Choose another country. Oh, no, America is where he makes his money. Land of opportunity. Don't want to fight for the Government, but sure don't mind the system of capitalism it founded which has made me a rich sportsman & permitted me to pursue my dreams as a fighter, do I?

Please.

[Zelley]

It's a bit much to expect a man to got to war for a country that discriminates against his race of people.

Your comments are the key to the crazy Sixties and Seventies in the USA.

The politics of the Sixties (post Kennedy) had the likes of Johnson
that is given much of the credit for increased activity in Vietnam.
Then came the ongoing protests from the streets and campuses.
How many remember the four dead in Ohio highlighted by the song "Ohio"
by Neil Young. Then there was the Chicago Seven and the circus like atmosphere
of the courtroom. And the hugh wave of protest songs such as "War", "Fortunate Son",
"Eve Of Destruction" and many more.

Concerning Ali, he stayed in the country and didn't run north to cross the border.

When he returned to ring activity, he was popular and helped in the renewed growth of boxing.
Of course there were those then and now who will never be a Muhammed Ali supporter
due to the draft situation. There was no win win, for even the returning Vietnam veterans
were treated by some as third class citizens and left to suffer the after effects in mind and body.
And, for those that didn't return home or came back in a pine box, an ocean of tears,
teardrop by lonely teardrop, can never wash away the loss and sorrow, but we can remember them.

When it comes to measuring the qualities of ALI the boxer , the issues of 1968 and 1969
should not be used to minimize his boxing legacy due to politics in a crazy time, but
without a doubt, those missing years cost him dearly in performance.

On Ali's best day, there is no other heavyweight that could outpoint him, and
not even the best would land a knockout punch. They would be blinded by the speed
of hands and feet, and flustered by the quick wit and poetic verbal jabs
like "the ugly bear" Liston, the washerwomen "Chuvalo" and more "Moore in Four"
punchlines. Looking at the heavyweights of today, there is no likely chance of seeing
another Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali, the man that could in his own words:
"FLOAT LIKE A BUTTERFLY and STING LIKE A BEE".

[Ezzard]

It's a bit much for a man who's enjoyed the many wonderful freedoms of being an American citizen (yes, even a black citizen, circa-1960's) & who calls one country, "home" to say he won't fight for it.

Don't want to fight? Choose another country. Oh, no, America is where he makes his money. Land of opportunity. Don't want to fight for the Government, but sure don't mind the system of capitalism it founded which has made me a rich sportsman & permitted me to pursue my dreams as a fighter, do I?

Please.

Not really for this forum, GI, but it wasn't really a war about freedom. It was the cold war by proxy. Nobody's freedom in the USA was ever at stake apart from the people sent to be killed. I wouldn't go to Iraq if I was drafted. I don't have an issue with those that are in the military but why should an individual give his life for a principle that he may not even agree with?

[raylawpc]

It's a bit much to expect a man to got to war for a country that discriminates against his race of people.

Didn't stop Joe Louis . . .

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Not really for this forum, GI, but it wasn't really a war about freedom. It was the cold war by proxy. Nobody's freedom in the USA was ever at stake apart from the people sent to be killed. I wouldn't go to Iraq if I was drafted. I don't have an issue with those that are in the military but why should an individual give his life for a principle that he may not even agree with?" - Ezzard

If you don't want to fight for your country, choose another country. He's a hypocrite. That's not to say the Government don't also fit that bill, mind.

[Collins2000]

It's a bit much to expect a man to got to war for a country that discriminates against his race of people.

Didn't stop Joe Louis . . .

And they rewarded him well for his patriotism didn't they????????????

[Goodnight, Irene]

^^^Bit of a red herring there, though.

[Collins2000]

^^^Bit of a red herring there, though.

Irene,

You need to think the thing all the way through, mate. Simplistic nonsense like "My country, right or wrong" got a lot of lads killed in Vietnam for no gain at all. George W wasn't patriotic (or daft) enough to go was he?

[Goodnight, Irene]

If he wishes to enjoy the opportunities of being an American, he has an obligation no religion frees him from.

[Collins2000]

If he wishes to enjoy the opportunities of being an American, he has an obligation no religion frees him from.

Too simplistic, Irene.

It takes courage to say your government is wrong and to stand up against it. That's not being unpatriotic at all.

"Bad things happen when good men stay silent."

[raylawpc]

It's a bit much to expect a man to got to war for a country that discriminates against his race of people.

Didn't stop Joe Louis . . .

And they rewarded him well for his patriotism didn't they????????????

Being patriotic doesn't give you a pass for not paying your taxes. Being nominated for secretary of the Treasury maybe, but . . .

[Goodnight, Irene]

If he wishes to enjoy the opportunities of being an American, he has an obligation no religion frees him from.

Too simplistic, Irene.

It takes courage to say your government is wrong and to stand up against it. That's not being unpatriotic at all.

"Bad things happen when good men stay silent."

Well, it's a simply concept. Muddying the waters is precisely what Ali thrived on with this subject. Sorry, but it's hypocritical to make an effort to have your cake & eat it, too.

[Collins2000]

If he wishes to enjoy the opportunities of being an American, he has an obligation no religion frees him from.

Too simplistic, Irene.

It takes courage to say your government is wrong and to stand up against it. That's not being unpatriotic at all.

"Bad things happen when good men stay silent."

Well, it's a simply concept. Muddying the waters is precisely what Ali thrived on with this subject. Sorry, but it's hypocritical to make an effort to have your cake & eat it, too.

Irene, as long as there are enough people like you willing to be cannon fodder for the interests of big business, people like George W and the other (non fighting) war-mongers will be able to sleep quite happily.

[Zelley]

How pathetic that some who were not there in the Sixties would have critical comments
on Ali and his non-role in the Vietnam War. To compare the reasons for war in
WW II with Vietnam is absurd.

For Vietmam it was no gain for much pain for the teenagers of the USA that were herded
into the draft and sent to suffer and die. That's like taking a novice boxer with no formal experience and feeding him to Roberto Duran in a title fight. At least with Duran
it would be quick and painless.

Some teenager of about 17 or 18 walking through waist high water or running through
the jungle dodging and ducking the tricks and traps was and is and always will be
a tragic comedy of errors and arrogance.

Even if Ali was drafted and took the bait, based on his situation, not sure he would
have been packaged and sent by freight to the swamps of Vietnam to be target practice.
But, you never can tell :!:

USA politics and the debate between the hawks & doves of Vietnam War
should be on the non-boxing site, and those interested in classic boxing and Ali
can discuss or debate here. But, when it comes to the heated discussion about
Muhammed Ali, some folks didn't read the first message concerning
emotional intelligence, and fair and objective analysis.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

USA politics and the debate between the hawks & doves of Vietnam War
should be on the non-boxing site, and those interested in classic boxing and Ali
can discuss or debate here.

- It boils down to refusing induction, getting stripped, found guilty, and then finally vindicated by the Supremes. It turns Ali into a hero of sorts for at least half the country.

Before he was just some funny loose lipped kid who boxed, and then joined a radical terrorist group of racists and became a pariah. Of course he finally stages two classics, the Rumble and the Thrilla, and that puts him over the hump.

I'm a big critic of Ali, but he did it all legal, showed guts and it works out. Not going to criticize him for that, but I do get a little snippy with those who want me to feel like Da Man was only picking on him because of his race and religion. Half the draft or more didn't want to go but had no choice.

Billy Slick sheltered behind elite education and GWJughaid hid behind his daddy's rep as a genuine war hero to shuck his duties he signed up for. Those are types that earn my dismissal from the human race. Wouldn't have any problems in Vietnam if Lucy and Lynda had to run the draft gauntlet.

[Zelley]

USA politics and the debate between the hawks & doves of Vietnam War
should be on the non-boxing site, and those interested in classic boxing and Ali
can discuss or debate here.

- It boils down to refusing induction, getting stripped, found guilty, and then finally vindicated by the Supremes. It turns Ali into a hero of sorts for at least half the country.

I'm a big critic of Ali, but he did it all legal, showed guts and it works out. Not going to criticize him for that, but I do get a little snippy with those who want me to feel like Da Man was only picking on him because of his race and religion. Half the draft or more didn't want to go but had no choice.

Thanks for your views,

For all, this is a thread about Ali the boxer.

It is not Political History 101 in the Good Old Boy College of
the red states of the USA or a rehash of the Vietnam War,

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ali, the boxer, is over-rated.

[Zelley]

Ali, the boxer, is over-rated.

That is likely true from where you sit :idea:

[jaclem2]

,,zelley --yeah, you're right - we should just be talking about his boxing career. while i do think the three year absence belongs, the other things i got into have made this go off in an entirely different direction..mea mucho culpa..

[Collins2000]

Ali, the boxer, is over-rated.

That is likely true from where you sit :idea:

Zelley, I thought this was a thread about Ali the boxer? You aren't likely to get much input or to keep it on track if you keep responding with sarcasm.

[Zelley]

Ali, the boxer, is over-rated.

That is likely true from where you sit :idea:

Zelley, I thought this was a thread about Ali the boxer? You aren't likely to get much input or to keep it on track if you keep responding with sarcasm.

That may be true, but at least you have made some outstanding posts
to highlight the "facts, fantasy & fiction" of the "Greatest".

Regardless, of his all time ranking, Ali continued to be magic at the box office. And we could always count on some pre-fight verse from
the mouth of the "Louisville Lip". Remember the days leading up to
Frazier vs Ali II.

"Joe Frazier's gonna come out smokin'
and I ain't gonna be jokin',,," Ali

[Collins2000]

That may be true, but at least you have made some outstanding posts
to highlight the "facts, fantasy & fiction" of the "Greatest"

Yeah, I'm a good song and dance man, too.

[Zelley]

That may be true, but at least you have made some outstanding posts
to highlight the "facts, fantasy & fiction" of the "Greatest"

Yeah, I'm a good song and dance man, too.

It must be the luck of the Irish D