BoxRec

Posted: **01 Jul 2003, 21:55**

Might as well lock this topic too, it won't get any better.

Posted: **14 Jul 2003, 08:21**

Yes of course.

He is the most overrated.
He is the most popular and the greatest star. Most people and journalists(becouse he give him a job) say that he is the greatest, but when you ask him with what, they can't answer right. I know that and many boxers say and renked him as №1, this is becuse of big Ali's publicity.

Great, but not "the greatest".
Yes he is the realy the greatest boxer, but not as a boxer, but as harisma person.

Ali with nothing is the only or unattainable.

I know two names in hevyweight who are over him - Marciano and Louis.And many names in limited divisions who are over him -S.R.Robinson,J.C. Chaves,A.Moore,Willie Pep...

I sincerity sorry if hurt Cassius fans.
And I like him. One f the greatest.

Posted: **29 Jul 2003, 14:04**

Dutch Windmill wrote:When people think of Muhammed Ali/Cassius Clay, the think of what he stood for, not about his quality's in the ring.

Sure, he was charismatic, sure he was good for boxing, but he was beaten two times in his prime.

HE WAS NOT. Ali's prime was in his pre-jail years. Back then, he never once lost. Ali was never beaten in his prime.
I don't think Ali is overrated, although I accidentally clicked the wrong buttong and voted 'Yes'.

Posted: **29 Jul 2003, 14:29**

Marciano Frazier wrote:
Dutch Windmill wrote:When people think of Muhammed Ali/Cassius Clay, the think of what he stood for, not about his quality's in the ring.

Sure, he was charismatic, sure he was good for boxing, but he was beaten two times in his prime.
HE WAS NOT. Ali's prime was in his pre-jail years. Back then, he never once lost. Ali was never beaten in his prime.
I don't think Ali is overrated, although I accidentally clicked the wrong buttong and voted 'Yes'.

He didn't lose, but he also didn't face guys like Joe Frazier and Ken Norton...
Liston is hardly to be considerated an all-time great, same goes for Henry Cooper.

So you're saying Ali was past his prime at 27?
I'd say he was pretty close to his prime when he beat Foreman.

Posted: **29 Jul 2003, 14:31**

bull wrote:Yes of course.

He is the most overrated.
He is the most popular and the greatest star. Most people and journalists(becouse he give him a job) say that he is the greatest, but when you ask him with what, they can't answer right. I know that and many boxers say and renked him as ?1, this is becuse of big Ali's publicity.

Great, but not "the greatest".
Yes he is the realy the greatest boxer, but not as a boxer, but as harisma person.

Ali with nothing is the only or unattainable.

I know two names in hevyweight who are over him - Marciano and Louis.And many names in limited divisions who are over him -S.R.Robinson,J.C. Chaves,A.Moore,Willie Pep...

I sincerity sorry if hurt Cassius fans.
And I like him. One f the greatest.

"Most people and journalists(becouse he give him a job) say that he is the greatest, but when you ask him with what, they can't answer right."
I can. Ali faced better competition than other heavyweight champ in history, and still held the heavyweight title 3 times and had 17 title defenses. He defeated George Foreman when he himself was 34 and well past his prime, KO'd Foreman in the 8th round, and no one else has ever KO'd Big George Foreman. Ali feather-fisted? Don't make me laugh.
As for Terap, he also frequents ESB, and makes posts there identical to ones he makes here. It's starling how good of an editor he is. He says "You're an amateur, and you are not a pro boxer so you known nothing and can't be given any credibility." Then, you ask him "Are you a pro?" and when he quotes you, he edits out the parts that ask whether he himself is a pro, because he ISN'T and by his own logic, he must know nothing and have no credibility concerning boxing, and if he responds, he's trapped himself.

Posted: **29 Jul 2003, 14:58**

WOW this is the most replies any one of my threads has had.

Posted: **29 Jul 2003, 16:11**

terap wrote:"Ali faced better competition than other heavyweight champ in history, and still held the heavyweight title 3 times and had 17 title defenses. "

HELLO, Ali salesman.

Ali faced competition including

Liston in 2 fixed fights,

Patterson who showed up with a sore back and whose cornermen were trying to give him chiropractic adjustments in the corner between rounds,

Cleaveland Williams--who was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from being shot in the stomach at point blank range a year and half before he fought Ali,

100 year-old-Zora Folley,

Jimmy Young--who beat the living sh*t out of Ali and was then was robbed in broad daylight---
with the one-sided beating Ali took from Young going into the record book as a "win" for the pathetic Ali,

"wins"over Ken Norton, Shavers, that were jokes

a "win" over Terrell, who was beating Ali,
until Ali got Terrell in a headlock in the third round and dragged his face across the second rope--resulting in Terrell having double vision for the rest of the fight and yet Ali--as hard as he tried couldn't even knock Terrell down in the remaining 12 rounds--although of course Ali "punched" hard enough to "knock out" Sonny Liston with a single "punch" in the first round.
After the fight the doctor who examined Terrell said he had a rope-burn on his face going into his eye.

Ali lost to novice Leon Spinks who had only had 7 pro fights.
Ali disgraced the history of the heavyweight division and the history of professional boxing with that pathetic loss to novice Spinks.

Ali salesmen and shills like yourself have the gall to say that Ali "won the title for a third time" by running for his life from the novice Spinks --who had now had 8 pro fights, and who showed up for the designated "win" for Ali filled up with cocaine.

I notice you Ali salesmen never mention that after your hero lost a 15 round decision to Spinks, and then ran for his life from a drugged up Spinks to win a 15 round decision---

IN HIS VERY next fight--after fighting your hero for a total of 30 rounds in two fights----SPINKS COULD NOT GET THROUGH ONE ROUND against Gerrie Coetzee, who KO'd Spinks in the very first round.

Sounds to me like you Ali shills should be selling Gerrie Coetzee, since he demonstrated he was 30 times better than your "greatest of all time."

CORRECTION of the ALi-salesman's statement:

"Ali faced better competition than other heavyweight champ in history[if you are an Ali shill who knows NOTHING about boxing "history'], and still held the heavyweight title 3 times [Ali had to lose the title in order to "win" it three times---HE LOST IT TO NOVICE LEON SPINKS----WHO HAD ONLY HAD SEVEN PRO FIGHTS !!!!]and had 17 title defenses." [where he was given obviously arranged decisions over especially Jimmy Young--who made a total ass out of Ali for 15 rounds)., as well as Ken Norton and Shavers, and won over such heroes as Richard Dunn, Jean Pierre Coopman, Alfredo Evangalista, etc etc."

And of course the bottom line for the Ali shills' false history of their product---

is that Ali lost to Joe Frazier. Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back in the 15th round and beat Ali thoroughly.

There is no way a fighter beaten so clearly like that by Joe Frazier could ever be considered the "greatest of all time"

EXCEPT of course by salesman who are specially selected because they have no background in the subject.

As for my own background in boxing--it is obvious enough to anyone who has had any real experience in the sport.

I suggest you go back to your other boxing sites and whine that your tired sales pitch for the very tiresome and mediocre Ali was not accepted here.

This has to be one of the best ali posts i have ever seen,

Posted: **31 Jul 2003, 16:07**

Dutch Windmill wrote:
Marciano Frazier wrote:
Dutch Windmill wrote:When people think of Muhammed Ali/Cassius Clay, the think of what he stood for, not about his quality's in the ring.

Sure, he was charismatic, sure he was good for boxing, but he was beaten two times in his prime.
HE WAS NOT. Ali's prime was in his pre-jail years. Back then, he never once lost. Ali was never beaten in his prime.
I don't think Ali is overrated, although I accidentally clicked the wrong buttong and voted 'Yes'.
He didn't lose, but he also didn't face guys like Joe Frazier and Ken Norton...
Liston is hardly to be considerated an all-time great, same goes for Henry Cooper.

So you're saying Ali was past his prime at 27?
I'd say he was pretty close to his prime when he beat Foreman.

Yes, Ali was past his prime fairly early, because he had to take a 4-year lay-off. He was badly ring rusted when he faced Frazier the first time, despite the fact that Terap continually ignores it.

Posted: **31 Jul 2003, 16:16**

terap wrote:"Ali faced better competition than other heavyweight champ in history, and still held the heavyweight title 3 times and had 17 title defenses. "

HELLO, Ali salesman.

Ali faced competition including

Liston in 2 fixed fights,

Patterson who showed up with a sore back and whose cornermen were trying to give him chiropractic adjustments in the corner between rounds,

Cleaveland Williams--who was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from being shot in the stomach at point blank range a year and half before he fought Ali,

100 year-old-Zora Folley,

Jimmy Young--who beat the living sh*t out of Ali and was then was robbed in broad daylight---
with the one-sided beating Ali took from Young going into the record book as a "win" for the pathetic Ali,

"wins"over Ken Norton, Shavers, that were jokes

a "win" over Terrell, who was beating Ali,
until Ali got Terrell in a headlock in the third round and dragged his face across the second rope--resulting in Terrell having double vision for the rest of the fight and yet Ali--as hard as he tried couldn't even knock Terrell down in the remaining 12 rounds--although of course Ali "punched" hard enough to "knock out" Sonny Liston with a single "punch" in the first round.
After the fight the doctor who examined Terrell said he had a rope-burn on his face going into his eye.

Ali lost to novice Leon Spinks who had only had 7 pro fights.
Ali disgraced the history of the heavyweight division and the history of professional boxing with that pathetic loss to novice Spinks.

Ali salesmen and shills like yourself have the gall to say that Ali "won the title for a third time" by running for his life from the novice Spinks --who had now had 8 pro fights, and who showed up for the designated "win" for Ali filled up with cocaine.

I notice you Ali salesmen never mention that after your hero lost a 15 round decision to Spinks, and then ran for his life from a drugged up Spinks to win a 15 round decision---

IN HIS VERY next fight--after fighting your hero for a total of 30 rounds in two fights----SPINKS COULD NOT GET THROUGH ONE ROUND against Gerrie Coetzee, who KO'd Spinks in the very first round.

Sounds to me like you Ali shills should be selling Gerrie Coetzee, since he demonstrated he was 30 times better than your "greatest of all time."

CORRECTION of the ALi-salesman's statement:

"Ali faced better competition than other heavyweight champ in history[if you are an Ali shill who knows NOTHING about boxing "history'], and still held the heavyweight title 3 times [Ali had to lose the title in order to "win" it three times---HE LOST IT TO NOVICE LEON SPINKS----WHO HAD ONLY HAD SEVEN PRO FIGHTS !!!!]and had 17 title defenses." [where he was given obviously arranged decisions over especially Jimmy Young--who made a total ass out of Ali for 15 rounds)., as well as Ken Norton and Shavers, and won over such heroes as Richard Dunn, Jean Pierre Coopman, Alfredo Evangalista, etc etc."

And of course the bottom line for the Ali shills' false history of their product---

is that Ali lost to Joe Frazier. Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back in the 15th round and beat Ali thoroughly.

There is no way a fighter beaten so clearly like that by Joe Frazier could ever be considered the "greatest of all time"

EXCEPT of course by salesman who are specially selected because they have no background in the subject.

As for my own background in boxing--it is obvious enough to anyone who has had any real experience in the sport.

I suggest you go back to your other boxing sites and whine that your tired sales pitch for the very tiresome and mediocre Ali was not accepted here.

1st, would you stop calling me an Ali salesman? The man was a punk in his early days, and talked way too much trash. But in the ring, I'd say he was the best. I much prefer fighters like Frazier or Marciano(notice my screen name) over Ali, but Ali was better than them.
The way you ignore everything possible about Ali that could reflect on him in a positive light is startling.
Ali lost to Frazier when he had recently come off a 4 year layoff. I'll bet you don't consider Jeffries' loss to Johnson so horrible. After all, how could someone who was beaten so clearly like that by Jack Johnson be considered the greatest of all time? Jeffries was coming off a 5-year layoff when he fought Johnson. You entirely ignore WHEN Ali struggled with someone, as well. Ali was already 35 when he lost to Spinks, and he was an old 35, because he relied on his reflexes so heavily and they'd deteriorated so much. You just ignore that, though. Why don't you say that Johnson's loss to Willard was a horrible black mark across the face of boxing? After all, Johnson was disgracefully beaten by Jess Willard, who had been beaten by Joe Cox, who was 0-3! I could just ignore the fact that Johnson was an old 38 at the time, and it would look horrible. Your posts are clearly carefully honed to display only the worst possible light when reflecting on Ali.

Posted: **31 Jul 2003, 20:50**

terap wrote:"Your posts are clearly carefully honed to display only the worst possible light when reflecting on Ali."

My posts report the bare FACTS about Ali.

All the bare FACTS left out by the army of Ali salesmen.

Yes, your posts report bare facts. But they only report bare facts that reflect negatively on Ali. You always avoid speaking of anything positive on him. Your posts make him look horrible, because you're showing the facts on one side- the negative one. You could make anyone look horrible like that if you keep reporting only the very worst possible details. For instance, like I pointed out, you say that Ali lost to Spinks, who had only 7 pro fights. That's completely true. But you ignore the fact that at the time he lost to Spinks, he was a tired, battered man who was more than 10 years past his best fights. Saying Ali's loss to Spinks is disgraceful is like saying that Louis 'disgracefully' lost to Charles and Marciano, or Foreman's loss to Tommy Morrison was disgraceful, or Dempsey's losses to Tunney were disgraceful. But you simply ignore that, so that the fact sounds 100 times worse than it is.

Posted: **31 Jul 2003, 23:12**

Actually, he had 8 pro fights, plus the best trainer in the world.

Posted: **01 Aug 2003, 01:52**

Was Ali overated? . Yes I think he was at times, he was not alone there. You want to talk overated heavyweights, think of Marciano , or Tyson.

Was Ali the greatest heavyweight champion?. Yes I think he was. Who else are you going to pick. Louis?. Yeah a great fighter, but to methodical, suspect opponents in his "bum of the month" fights. Marciano?. Come on. Career built on nobody's novices, old men, and lighter men.
Tyson?. Just a bully who came unstuck when fighters became less affraid of him. Liston and Fraizer would both have beaten Tyson.

Ali IMO had no obvious weakness, save for a tendancy to hang his chin out in his early days, leaving himself open to a left hook or two.

And sure , he got beat, all fighters do, but he never got beat-up.
IMO if Ali had not been stripped of his title, he would have remained unbeaten until he faced Spinks in 1978, thus beating the records of Louis for the greatest number of defences and the longest rein as champ.

I Ali had not been stripped of the title, he would have probably faced Frazier in 1968, and with out the layoff, I think Ali would have been able to beat him, the same goes for Norton 1.

And as champion, Ali would have picked up extra challenges from Ramos, Zyglewicz, Roman etc.

Ok Ali didnt always have it his own way. Norton always made it difficult for him.
As for the Jimmy Young fight, I remember that one. Ali was the heavyest of his career, overweight and out of condition, he dismissed young as having no chance, and if Ali was 100% he woul;d not have stood a chance.
I remember Young sticking his head through the ropes to avoid being hit whenever Ali mounted an attack. Yes it was boring as was the Evangilista fight the following year, but these fights should not detract from the fact Ali was the best there had been, and still remains the best today. Only Larry Holmes comes close to Ali since Muhammad retired.

Was ali the greatest fighter of all time. Thats an impossible question. Robinson, Armstrong, are up there too. but the greatest heavyweight , Yes, no question.

The guvnor.

Posted: **01 Aug 2003, 02:03**

Sorry Guv, but you are about to get bitched out big time.

Posted: **01 Aug 2003, 02:18**

terap wrote:"Saying Ali's loss to Spinks is disgraceful is like saying that Louis 'disgracefully' lost to Charles and Marciano, or Foreman's loss to Tommy Morrison was disgraceful, or Dempsey's losses to Tunney were disgraceful."

Thank you, halfwit.

I never realized that Ezzard Charles and Marciano when they fought Louis, and Tunney when he fought Dempsey, were novices who only had seven professional fights.

As you like to say, as usual you missed the obvious points of my post. When Ali lost to Spinks, he was old and far past his prime, more than 10 years past his best fights, just as Louis, Foreman, etc., were old and washed up when they lost to certain opponents. It doesn't matter that Spinks had only seven fights. That's not what I'm talking about. You don't count Louis' loss to Marciano or Foreman's loss to Morrison against them, do you? If you don't, which you shouldn't, then you can't count Ali's loss to Spinks against him. Do you think a prime Ali would've lost to Spinks? No way in Heaven, Earth, or Hell that would've happened.

Posted: **01 Aug 2003, 02:29**

theguvnor wrote:Was Ali overated? . Yes I think he was at times, he was not alone there. You want to talk overated heavyweights, think of Marciano , or Tyson.

Was Ali the greatest heavyweight champion?. Yes I think he was. Who else are you going to pick. Louis?. Yeah a great fighter, but to methodical, suspect opponents in his "bum of the month" fights. Marciano?. Come on. Career built on nobody's novices, old men, and lighter men.
Tyson?. Just a bully who came unstuck when fighters became less affraid of him. Liston and Fraizer would both have beaten Tyson.

Ali IMO had no obvious weakness, save for a tendancy to hang his chin out in his early days, leaving himself open to a left hook or two.

And sure , he got beat, all fighters do, but he never got beat-up.
IMO if Ali had not been stripped of his title, he would have remained unbeaten until he faced Spinks in 1978, thus beating the records of Louis for the greatest number of defences and the longest rein as champ.

I Ali had not been stripped of the title, he would have probably faced Frazier in 1968, and with out the layoff, I think Ali would have been able to beat him, the same goes for Norton 1.

And as champion, Ali would have picked up extra challenges from Ramos, Zyglewicz, Roman etc.

Ok Ali didnt always have it his own way. Norton always made it difficult for him.
As for the Jimmy Young fight, I remember that one. Ali was the heavyest of his career, overweight and out of condition, he dismissed young as having no chance, and if Ali was 100% he woul;d not have stood a chance.
I remember Young sticking his head through the ropes to avoid being hit whenever Ali mounted an attack. Yes it was boring as was the Evangilista fight the following year, but these fights should not detract from the fact Ali was the best there had been, and still remains the best today. Only Larry Holmes comes close to Ali since Muhammad retired.

Was ali the greatest fighter of all time. Thats an impossible question. Robinson, Armstrong, are up there too. but the greatest heavyweight , Yes, no question.

The guvnor.

I agree with your general point, but many of your critiques of great fighters like Louis and Marciano are wrong.

"Who else are you going to pick. Louis?. Yeah a great fighter, but to methodical, suspect opponents in his "bum of the month" fights."
Louis had several excellent opponents, like Jersey Joe Walcott and Max Schmeling. He fought a lot of bums, but everyone fought a lot of bums. Ali fought a lot of bums, too. As for being 'methodical', that's bad? Louis figured his opponents out and demolished them. A very dominant champion.
"Marciano?. Come on. Career built on nobody's novices, old men, and lighter men."
I see, so Rex Layne was old, a nobody, a novice, or lighter? Layne was bigger than Marciano, was young, was a top fighter with a record of 34-1-2, and obviously wasn't a novice having had 37 fights.
LaStarza was old, a nobody, a novice, or a lighter man? He was 4 years younger than Marciano, was undefeated in 36 fights the first time he fought Marciano, and weighed as much as Marciano.
What about Vingo? He was 17-1, was MUCH bigger than Marciano, and was young.
And although Terap is certainly going to persist in flaming me and calling me a 'halfwit' and an 'Ali salesman' purely for expressing opinions, I'll continue to agree with you that Ali was the best heavyweight- not invincible like some people say, not untouchable at all, but NO ONE was untouchable. All fighters were flawed and beatable. Ali was too. But I simply think Ali was better than any other heavyweight fighter that has ever fought so far.

Posted: **28 Jul 2011, 18:08**

About as overrated as Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Pele, and Jim Brown.

I'll address some of the points made in this thread.

And, no Jimmy Young didn't have faster hands than Muhammad Ali. Maybe the 34 year old Ali but I doubt it. I have to watch the tape.

And, no Ali didn't have two losses during his prime. He spent his prime years trying to get his boxing license back.

And, no, Ali beat Doug Jones. If the decision was disputed it was because of expectations.

Oh, With every year Jimmy Young wins another round in his bout with Ali. By now he must have pitched a shutout. And Ali beat Shavers fair and square.

Oh, Ali was thirty six when he lost to Spinks. With over thirty years to look back on that fight I'm impressed , as cooked as he was, he could beat any ranked fighter. He relied on his athleticism, reflexes, cat like speed, and heart throughout his career. The only thing that remained in the rematch was his heart.

Cleveland Williams was clearly a diminished fighter when he fought Ali but he had a nice little win streak going, after recovering from the shooting.

And no his loss to Frazier, coming off a three and one half year layoff, with two tune up fights, doesn't diminish his claim to greatness.

And I don't care if Ali stuck his hands up his ass Joe Louis is not going to walk through him. He has to catch him first. I realize that Conn and Ali were very different fighters. However, if Conn can run around Louis as he stands in the center of the ring so could have Ali. . Ali had the tools to beat any heavyweight in history. No fighter is walking through him.

And that's a crock of shit that Ali tried to blind Terrell. How come in sixty one fights no one accused Ali of fighting dirty. The worst he was acccused of and did was hold.

Posted: **28 Jul 2011, 19:04**

ThatOne wrote:Ali had the tools to beat any heavyweight in history. No fighter is walking through him.

No argument from me, on this topic.

Posted: **28 Jul 2011, 20:52**

Let's have a minute of silence for all the loonies who contributed to this thread but are no longer with us.

Posted: **28 Jul 2011, 21:16**

24 minutes enough? And who are these loons?? Tyson KFTO 3 times? Marciano Frazier? Dave1armedTua?

Posted: **29 Jul 2011, 00:11**

Maybe Ali has become overhyped down the years, due to his charisma and his worldwide popularity...

However, when we talk about being overrated as a Heavyweight? Certainly not. The man was not perfect, but he's certainly one of the greatest Heavyweights of all time, and he should be on everybodys upper echeylon of all time great Heavies.

A true indicator of his greatness is the fact that practically nobody willleave Ali out of ther top 10.

And I guess that speaks volumes about the man.

Posted: **29 Jul 2011, 00:21**

bengulnaci1 wrote:24 minutes enough? And who are these loons?? Tyson KFTO 3 times? Marciano Frazier? Dave1armedTua?

God bless them all.

The internet has been a great boon for previously shut-in loonies.

Posted: **29 Jul 2011, 00:47**

Giancarlo wrote:
bengulnaci1 wrote:24 minutes enough? And who are these loons?? Tyson KFTO 3 times? Marciano Frazier? Dave1armedTua?
God bless them all.

The internet has been a great boon for previously shut-in loonies.

Posted: **29 Jul 2011, 16:27**

Terap. For all your stupid comments, your ridiculous comparisons and boxing knowledge, when you said the words :Ali was a mediocre boxer",. All your views on anything in life. ANYTHING, become meaningless. Ive never heard such stupidity, what a twat. Thats like saying water is overated, or frank sinatra cant sing. Your an imbecile dear boy

Posted: **29 Jul 2011, 16:58**

ThatOne wrote:Ali had the tools to beat any heavyweight in history. No fighter is walking through him.

No one walks through him but I think prime Frazier was flat out better than Ali and Norton would always be a problem for Ali. When Frazier beat Ali in FOTC Ali was as close to prime that as he ever was, you simply can't credit Ali with anything during the years in exile. When I hear about how rusty he was in FOTC I feel like laughing. He swept the early rounds and was ahead at the halfway point for Christs sake. Sharp as a whip he was but then Frazier with his relentless pressure started to get to him like he always did and always would.

Ali was a great fighter but of course he was overrated in boxing terms. As an iconic sports figure it's virtually impossible to overrate him.

Posted: **30 Jul 2011, 07:32**

When people claim he's the Greatest P4P ever, that's when he's overrated.

I'm not even sure a Peak Ali was/is the best Heavyweight ever!

He was a Wonderful Boxer though, & the impact & legacy he had on the sport will live forever!

BoxRec

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