BoxRec

After factoring every excuse you can come up with for Mike surely you appreciate that Holy had been over the hill and back again by the time he fought Ruiz.

I think it's your opinion that the Lewis rematch wasn't close. Plenty of others don't share that POV.

Peter was held by Fat Boy Toney who had almost no mobility and no power at the weight.

Holy was a shadow of himself after the 3rd fight with Bowe but he still had enough to be competitive with many who came after.

Frazier would be undisputed HW champion of the world and probably get 20 title defenses under his belt before finally having a loss.

I respect and like the Klistchko brothers and I do beleive they are good role models in boxing.

Having said that, I'm of the opinion that Smoking Joe would go through them like crap through a goose. After a few rounds of Frazier hooks to the body both brothers would implode. Smoking Joe would cook their bowels.

Ezzard wrote:After factoring every excuse you can come up with for Mike surely you appreciate that Holy had been over the hill and back again by the time he fought Ruiz.

- Dear Sir, Mr. E. H. Field must have been over the hill and back again by the time he fought Big George, Cooper, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer and Lewis if performances are any key.

He looked either fatigued, clueless, and/or on the verge of being KOed in any of those fights and was quite fortunate to end up with the wins he did have. Was also lucky to see out a bloated aging Qawi in the first fight. Looked pretty sharp afterwards marching smartly onwards until Foreman.

According to his bandwagon, why Mr. E. H. Field at the ripe old age of Methuselah handily dominated the Russian Giant by dancing away the night at the ring periphery with a poke every other minute or so.

So the logical question is, what is his prime by your standards?

dangerous johnny, your statement that Jimmy Young could beat Klitschko but Frazier was 'too small' is proof in itself you have NO idea what the hell you are talking about.

Frazier had a granite chin only ever stopped by one of the hardest hitters ever in Foreman past his best. He also had an excellent defense at his peak developing a bob n'weave, constantly slipping style that was very hard to time. Even the fastest HWs of the time period, much faster and better conditioned than anyone today in the HW division (Ellis,Ali,Mathis) had trouble consistently landing on him. The likes of a Sam Peter, embarassed and puffed up by a fat 38 year old whose prime was at 168 lbs, Klitschko who fell to the constant pressure of Brewster and Purrity, Byrd who had major trouble really with any top heavyweight who didn't gas out after 5 rounds . . .Frazier would spell utter doom for any of them.

I think a fairer question is how would Joe Bugner do in this era. I have a hard time envisioning a constantly moving, quick handed Bugner not wearing out both Klitschko brothers and tearing up their brittle faces with the left jab. At the same time, Joe was hot and cold and could show up and stink the place out as well.

Trainer Monkey wrote:He' do almost exactly the same,he'd get to the top of the mountain and eventually get worn down

This is essentially how I see it. Frazier would absolutely clean house with the current crop of Heavyweights we have today, His conditioning, his work-rate, his unrelenting savagery would just be far too much for a division typified by fat asses with limited out-puts.

Now, having said that, their size would make life more difficult for Frazier than it had been in his own time --- up to a point --- because, while the imposing measurements of guys like the Klitschkos & others present legitimate obstacles for Frazier, most of the top Heavies today have none of the fire, urgency, conditioning, or skills of Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Mathis etc.

Frazier would beat them all, but he would be worn down in doing so. Eventually, we'd see him in the type of condition he was in against Foreman (1st fight), Ali (2nd fight) & Ellis (2nd fight), & someone would knock him off, on points, in lacklustre fashion at the tail end of what would have been one hell of a career.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Trainer Monkey wrote:He' do almost exactly the same,he'd get to the top of the mountain and eventually get worn down

This is essentially how I see it. Frazier would absolutely clean house with the current crop of Heavyweights we have today, His conditioning, his work-rate, his unrelenting savagery would just be far too much for a division typified by fat asses with limited out-puts.

Now, having said that, their size would make life more difficult for Frazier than it had been in his own time --- up to a point --- because, while the imposing measurements of guys like the Klitschkos & others present legitimate obstacles for Frazier, most of the top Heavies today have none of the fire, urgency, conditioning, or skills of Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Mathis etc.

Frazier would beat them all, but he would be worn down in doing so. Eventually, we'd see him in the type of condition he was in against Foreman (1st fight), Ali (2nd fight) & Ellis (2nd fight), & someone would knock him off, on points, in lacklustre fashion at the tail end of what would have been one hell of a career.

I agree mostly, but I see Frazier having a relatively short prime in ANY era, but lasting longer today. I don't think having to fight a lot of overweight guys would make life much harder for him than fighting guys in excellent condition. The Klitschkos are the only BIG men today with world class skills, and I only see Vitali giving Joe what could be called a real grueling fight while it lasted. I honestly don't see Peter being much stronger than Bonavena or Stander (who was crude but hit like a ton of bricks) but having incredibly inferior conditioning. The rest of the top guys (Povetkin,Chagaev,Ibragimov,Chambers) are not any bigger than the guys Frazier was fighting, just heavier and pudgier.

Vitali is tough & durable, but he's always been the more robotic, less-talented of the brothers. This was the concensus opinion until Wlad started getting knocked out repeatedly, & Vitali's win over the shockingly over-rated Peter (still a strong win for Vitali, all things considered) put Wlad badly out-of-favour, it seems.

Vitali's size & durability would make it difficult, but not especially so, for Frazier. Wlad has more skills & ability across the board than big bro ever did, but lacks the toughness, physically & mentally, to hang with Frazier long-term.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Vitali is tough & durable, but he's always been the more robotic, less-talented of the brothers. This was the concensus opinion until Wlad started getting knocked out repeatedly, & Vitali's win over the shockingly over-rated Peter (still a strong win for Vitali, all things considered) put Wlad badly out-of-favour, it seems.

I disagree. Wlad always had a massive question mark hanging over him after losing to Puritty. And with good reason as the first fight with Brewster proved.

Vitali was always seen as the more talented unless stamina now means nothing in boxing.

Is this just another bigger = better thread or a discussion on the mrits of Frazier versus what's around today?

The only argument against him seems to be he's too small... So why not just have a thread asking how Joe Louis would fare and be done with it?

dangerousjohnny wrote:

Ezzard wrote: Peter was held by Fat Boy Toney who had almost no mobility and no power at the weight.

Mr Field still managed to get KO'd by the same Fat Boy Toney, who had almost no mobility & power at the weight

And lets no forget losing the title to a very green Riddick Bowe, who had his career ended by mental case Golota

Mr Field couldn't knock out human knockout highlight reel Hasim Rahman and had to cheat to beat him

Holyfield is overrated and is only held in such esteem because of his Tyson wins.

dangerous

If you're saying that Tyson and Bowe overrated too then that's a different argument. All the other guys he fought 3-4 careers down the line.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Ezzard wrote:After factoring every excuse you can come up with for Mike surely you appreciate that Holy had been over the hill and back again by the time he fought Ruiz.

- Dear Sir, Mr. E. H. Field must have been over the hill and back again by the time he fought Big George, Cooper, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer and Lewis if performances are any key.

He looked either fatigued, clueless, and/or on the verge of being KOed in any of those fights and was quite fortunate to end up with the wins he did have. Was also lucky to see out a bloated aging Qawi in the first fight. Looked pretty sharp afterwards marching smartly onwards until Foreman.

According to his bandwagon, why Mr. E. H. Field at the ripe old age of Methuselah handily dominated the Russian Giant by dancing away the night at the ring periphery with a poke every other minute or so.

So the logical question is, what is his prime by your standards?

But he beat Foreman and Qawi?!?!? Holyfield was inconsistent, you could level that one against Lewis, Bowe and Tyson too... (To be fair to Vitali he's generally pretty consistent) I think you need to be consistent in your evaluation.

Joe would smoke everyone in this era easily.

Ezzard wrote: But he beat Foreman and Qawi?!?!? Holyfield was inconsistent, you could level that one against Lewis, Bowe and Tyson too... (To be fair to Vitali he's generally pretty consistent) I think you need to be consistent in your evaluation.

- There is no need of me to back up my assertion that Mr. E. H. Field was inconsistent by mentioning hundreds of other fighters.

Lewis was was somewhat inconsistent, and Bowe and Mr. Field greatly more so. Tyson was very consistent up to his marriage to Don, Robin, and Ruth when he had to be placed on the scripts that maintained him until his prison sentence. After prison he was consistently in trouble with the law, in the ring, and unpredictable, so he's at least consistently uneven.

What I find interesting is the same piffle who dismiss Tyson as a nothing bully who falls apart as soon as someone stands up to him, big up Frazier as one of the gods of the heavyweight pantheon although his career is much shorter and falls apart as soon as someone "stands up to him." Frazier beat one single quality big man in Buster Mathis, and now when he's magically transformed into this era he's gonna march through a block full of 240-270 lb contenders like they were popcorn.

It might help if there was an example of a 200lb slugger doing well in this era, but we don't and haven't since the day of Smokin' Joe. Mr. E. H. Field used extensive weight work and magic vitamins to transform himself and has a very mediocre record overall against big men. In which case maybe we should elevate Tommy Morrison as another who could magically march through today's landscape, chopping down heavy timber as if saplings.

Brilliant - Tyson was very consistent right up until the moment he became inconsistent. Then everyone's favourite convicted rapist branches off and becomes an entirely different entity. This entity cannot be judged like other boxers because he is special in some undefinable way. The poster boy for impotent young men!

Everyone is consistent up to a point when they have a bad performance or lose. You can't just pretend that it never happened.

dangerousjohnny wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Is this just another bigger = better thread or a discussion on the mrits of Frazier versus what's around today?

The only argument against him seems to be he's too small... So why not just have a thread asking how Joe Louis would fare and be done with it?

This isn't just a bigger is better, today's heavies are bigger and better.

The reason why it matters in this argument is Fraizer had problems with bigger fighters in his time. It's logical to assume that Fraizer vs either Klitscho, Lewis, Bowe, Peter, etc would be similar to his fights with Foreman. And it may not be so much because Joe was simply a smaller heavy, but his style was one where he took a few punches to land one, and that style does not work against the dudes listed above.

So the current crop of HWs are the greatest there has ever been?

dangerousjohnny wrote:

Ezzard wrote:
So the current crop of HWs are the greatest there has ever been?

For a brief period of time, we had Lewis, Holyfield, Klitscho 1, Klitscho 2, Tyson, Byrd, Golota, Tua, Peter, Briggs, Foreman, Rahman, McCall, Mercer, Morrison, Williams and a bunch talented B-level and C-level fighters.

I would say that crop of heavies ranks with the best of them. They didn't have the name recognition as the guys from the 70's but they had just as much ability

But you said the current crop was bigger and better

Actually Lewis, Williams, Tyson and Foreman are no longer active, and most of the remainder (besides the Klits) are pretty much shot. I don't see that as a particularly current list.

I think the extremes people go to in this thread are hilarious. It's as though the only two conclusions one can come to are that Joe Frazier runs everyone today over within 6 rounds or becomes a fringe contender based on tremendous ass-whoopings.

Now honestly I think it's hard to rate past fighters to current ones often because current fighters have not completed their careers yet and so they have yet to prove their ultimate worth against the wider variety of opponents many past fighters have done, so if I were asked how Frazier-Arreola or Frazier-Haye would play out I wouldn't know what to say because neither career has been as filled out and shown the ups and downs that Wladimir and Vitali's have, and to the extent of the Klitschkos' experience, but as it stands now...

I personally think Frazier would be capable of beating just about every fighter in the division except for Vitali Klitschko, who I think he'd give a great war against before finally falling late. Frazier would unleash hell upon Wladimir, just as his most stylistically similar modern fighter Lamon Brewster did, and knock him out before the halfway mark. Wladimir would surely bust Frazier up early and hold him plenty to try and take the steam out of Smokin' Joe, but Frazier had excellent closing speed, just as Brewster did in his prime and he'd likely be able to get his own licks in enough before being grappled enough to quickly wear Wladimir out and finally stop him after several rough rounds. I think one fighter he could possibly have trouble with would be Samuel Peter. Frazier's style has a fatal flaw of exposing himself to possibly extreme amounts of violence, and Samuel Peter is easily one of the hardest puncher's ever (his power is often underestimated however, because of it's overall lack of accuracy, as he often winds up scoring TKO's after landing grazing shots) and Frazier would essentially be wading right into the Nigerian Nightmare's power, and while I think he'd make Peter very uncomfortable, I wouldn't like his chances of getting into the championship rounds simply based on the tremendous punishment I could imagine Peter exacting on him early.

With Vitali I think Frazier would be able to get in and try to do damage but Vitali's evasive enough and smart enough, as well as tough enough to take what Frazier has to give and deliver it back. Vitali's style interestingly reminds me a bit like a cross between Foreman and Ali in that despite keeping his hands low and being able to evade punches entirely through distance and timing hs punches come not with tremendous speed but with a ton of thudding force at a wide variety of angles. Many say he doesn't hit as hard as his brother but I disagree mostly because Wladimir tends to time and set up his shots perfectly and with greater speed and accuracy, whereas Vitali doesn't mind mixing it up more and throwing in combination while attacking or evading, Vitali simply doesn't hit opponents "right on the button" as frequently as Vitali does because he prefers to wear them down more quickly and score KO's whereas Wladimir remains cautious until his opponent is no longer a threat at all energetically then go for the KO, hence his boring decision over Sultan Ibragimov, who never really tired badly despite the few big shots he took, and who himself was reluctant to become to reckless thanks to Wladimir's own power.

The Great John L wrote:Actually Lewis, Williams, Tyson and Foreman are no longer active, and most of the remainder (besides the Klits) are pretty much shot. I don't see that as a particularly current list.

Very true. I'd say the 90's crop of HWs was a very good era as far as talent goes, one of the best ever along the lines of the 70's.

dangerousjohnny wrote:You can't compare Fraizer to Relentless Lamon Brewster, who starched Klitscho & Golota and has never been hurt in a fight. That would be a hell of a fight, but no way Fraizer would hurt Brewster

Brewster has never been hurt in a fight? And perhaps you also didn't notice that even at his best Brewster's speed was comparable to Butterbean.

And I'm sorry but Sam Peter is in no way a major hitter along the lines of Foreman or Shavers. In his last 8 fights he had 2 stoppages, Julius Long and Maskaev, who he couldn't even KD. Besides the archaic Maskaev, he has zero KO's over world class fighters and his sole claim to fame seems to be his spectacular KO of Jeremy Williams, who was a good fighter, but he's hardly noted for having a great chin. Like most over-hyped KO "artists", Peter's true colors should be apparent now that he is fighting actual liove bodies.

Heres how I see Frazier doing in matchups against the current Boxrec top 10:

Vitali - very tough fight for Joe. I could see an ebb and flow in this fight with VK possibly quiting late or hanging on and taking it to a close decision that could go either way.

Wlad - Wlad has a punchers chance, but I would see Wlad going in to a shell and getting worn down for a mid rounds stoppage.

Chagaev - Tough battle, but Joe's conditioning gets him either a late stoppage or comfortable decision.

Haye - quick and explossive fight with Joe dropped in the 2nd but coming back to drop Hay 3 times in the 3rd round for a TKO win.

Valuev - Valuev's jab is too slow to stop Joe, but his clinhing sure stops the action. With the fight held in Germany, Joe outlands Valuev about 300-30 over the 12 rounds but still loses the decision.

Peter - Peter wings some bombs early and rattles Joe, but he in turn is dropped in each of the first 2 rounds. he survives to fight on but quits on his stool after 7.

Povetkin - Good matchup with lots of quick exchanges. Povetkin takes the first few rounds before Joe finds his timing and takes over in the third. The fight has its ebb and flow, but Joe seems to control more rounds to win a SD.

Ruiz - Ruiz lasts until the 5th by clinching and wrestling, but is stopped cold by a perfect LH to the jaw.

Dimitrenko - Dimitrenko's length present some problems again and Joe falls behind losing some early rounds before taking charge to to earn a comfortable UD.

Gomez - Joe is just too much for Gomez who fights gamely but is stopped in the 9th round after getting dropped a few times.

dangerousjohnny wrote:You can't compare Fraizer to Relentless Lamon Brewster, who starched Klitscho & Golota and has never been hurt in a fight. That would be a hell of a fight, but no way Fraizer would hurt Brewster

Dangerousjohnny, you reallly have a lot to learn (and watch) before you start making ridiculous and false lines like the one above. Brewster has been hurt, badly, in practically every major fight he's been in, it just takes a lot to put him down as he has tremondous heart (but none more than Frazier). A more conservative ref would've stopped the fight vs Lyakovich and Meehan when Brewster was just lying against the ropes hurt and taking punishment without firing back, Krasniqi had him hurt several times, and small Frazier wannabe Ettiene had Brewster BADLY hurt several times and in that 1st round the bell saved Brewster from a knockout.

To say Frazier couldn't hurt Brewster (or any of your other comments concerning Frazier for that matter) displays so such complete ignorance of Frazier and his career, as well as the careers of the guys you are touting would beat him, it's frankly embarassing for you.

im sorry frazier beats all of todays fighters quite easy

he would hit vitali and his brother to the body for 8 rounds , their head would fall and both are stopped

other than they 2 , its a disgrace to even mention anyone , the divison is rotten

ps:

haye??? look im british but it would only take 1 full left hook flush and its over

I have always imagined Toney of 2003-04 would
have made a fun and exciting match up for peak
Frazier.

I tip it in Fraziers favout but I think it would have
been a great fight to watch.

dangerousjohnny wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

dangerousjohnny wrote:
For a brief period of time, we had Lewis, Holyfield, Klitscho 1, Klitscho 2, Tyson, Byrd, Golota, Tua, Peter, Briggs, Foreman, Rahman, McCall, Mercer, Morrison, Williams and a bunch talented B-level and C-level fighters.

I would say that crop of heavies ranks with the best of them. They didn't have the name recognition as the guys from the 70's but they had just as much ability

But you said the current crop was bigger and better

that is still current

None of those guys are current apart from the Klits.

The 90s was a very strong era. I agree with that.