BoxRec

Expug wrote:Quarry doesnt lose to a guy who spits the bit between rounds to Chris Byrd with a sore shoulder.
He wouldnt let himself.
Klitschko beats Chuck. Thats it.

That's grossly unfair. Willie Pep does it, & because he's an old-timer, he's tough as teak. A torn rotator cuff is not, "a sore shoulder."

Klitschko shouldn't lose traction because he called it with damage that bad. C'mon.

Have to disagree with you here. Yes he should get criticized for quitting. It's not like he had no chance of winning. All he had to do was stand there for three rounds. He should get ripped for this.

Have you ever had a torn rotator cuff, Alp?

No,but I don't think that's a good point. I'm also not a boxer being paid a lot of money to fight. I believe the guys that we are comparing Klitschko to would have toughed it out. All we are talking about standing up for 3 rounds against a guy who can't punch in a fight that he was winning. Other fighters have toughed it out under far tougher circumstances.

Ambling Alp wrote: I believe the guys that we are comparing Klitschko to would have toughed it out. All we are talking about standing up for 3 rounds against a guy who can't punch in a fight that he was winning. Other fighters have toughed it out under far tougher circumstances.

- As did Vitali himself against Lewis. Vitali comes from a culture of sportsman and higher education, not brass knucks fighting. He self diagnosed himself and made a decision he admitted that he regretted.

He also retired 4 yrs rather than fight through multiple injuries requiring operations, so are we cracking on him for that also? Remember, usual riffraff accused him of ducking Rahman and bragged about how Rahman was going to do a Lewis on him. He instead comes back after 4 yrs to stop a bigger, stronger, more prime champ who'd never been stopped, unlike Rahman. When was the last time that happened?

Lessee, typical responses have everyone beating Vitali. Coopman, Leon, Scott Frank, Amos Johnson, Tommy Farr, Denver Ed Martin next in line. Oh, now and a again someone will pick a Bill Squires to lose to him just to keep him alive.

I'm about primed after all these eliminations are finished to roust Buckhorse from his cave in the hills and have him ride down and clean up Ali, Joe, Vitali and the whole lot. Easily as credible as what I've seen posted.

Then again, perhaps you gents are richer than Carlos Slim after years of picking all the winners in boxing.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote: I believe the guys that we are comparing Klitschko to would have toughed it out. All we are talking about standing up for 3 rounds against a guy who can't punch in a fight that he was winning. Other fighters have toughed it out under far tougher circumstances.

- As did Vitali himself against Lewis. Vitali comes from a culture of sportsman and higher education, not brass knucks fighting. He self diagnosed himself and made a decision he admitted that he regretted.

Sounds like Vitali knows he could have continued and should have continued. And sounds like he knows he failed a gut check.

I wonder if his fans will ever accept that?

Ambling Alp wrote:No,but I don't think that's a good point. I'm also not a boxer being paid a lot of money to fight. I believe the guys that we are comparing Klitschko to would have toughed it out. All we are talking about standing up for 3 rounds against a guy who can't punch in a fight that he was winning. Other fighters have toughed it out under far tougher circumstances.

Nor is that a fair point. Your expectations are too high, IMO, based on what other fighters did. Okay, so it's fair to say Klitschko never proved himself at level X of toughness. Isn't there a happy medium between extremely tough & deserving of criticism for whimping out or failing a gut-check?

In all sincerity, read up on torn rotator cuffs & come back & tell me what you think.

Well, I know that brother-in-law had one and still worked in construction for several weeks before he had an operation.

I was comparing him to what other boxers did. There probably is some sort of gray areas where you aren't wimping out if you don't continue, but where certain fighters would continue.

We are comparing Klitschko to other specific fighters. The real question is do we think those fighters quit in that situation? I don't think they would have. That has to count against him when comparing him to them.

Ambling Alp wrote: We are comparing Klitschko to other specific fighters. The real question is do we think those fighters quit in that situation? I don't think they would have. That has to count against him when comparing him to them.

- Ali quit against Liston. Dundee wouldn't let him and shoved him out to fight.

Ali quit the Thrilla. Dundee wouldn't listen, all while Futch is pulling the plug on Frazier who never spoke to Futch again. Duran quit, Kostyzu, Popkins tried to quit in the most disgraceful display I've ever seen against Calzaghe. He just didn't say, "I quit."

I've heard people say George quit against Ali and Louis quit against Schmeling, the first fight. Oscar, Peter, Duran, Carlos Ortiz, looks like Vitali in fine company, but as usual, he's only rated on his perceived negatives. Apparently he's never won a single fight in his life.

Is the granberry-terap creature trying to wriggle out thru your arse again BRR?

Keep fighting it.

You got banned last time.

Remember?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
Sanders? Peter?

Please, Weapon. Please.

You have a point with Peter now, but the fact still remains that Vitali is an expert at establishing distance and blasting opponents away who try to get their own range, and I simply think he'd wear down Frazier with volume punching and some clinching when Frazier happens to score.

A friend of mine tore his rotator cuff. He was in a lot
of instant pain, and pain after the fact.

He did it playing weekend cricket, Bowling.

It's a very serious injury, & no fighter should be diminished for not continuing a bout with such an injury. Klitschko gets an unfair rap for that fight.

Its funny. Boxing fans are so arrogant and quick to label
a man a coward for 'quitting'.

In MMA their is a great deal of honour in 'tapping out' or
'quiting'.

I dont really think what Vitali did was shameful or a disgrace,
losing is bad enough as it is without having a world of boxing
experts label you a coward.

Pain hurts. And some pain just takes the fight from you.

I dont think Vitali was any kind of coward. He is an outstanding fighter.
Thing is, in that particular fight against that particular opponnent, I think he should have hung in there.
Byrd wasnt doing a damn thing to him. He wasnt getting to Vitali at all.Klitschko was way ahead and all he had to do was go out there and stick and move with one arm and he would have cruised to a decision.Byrd would not have pushed him.
Kym, for sure if it was mma , Klitschko wouldnt be able to continue with a bad shoulder. There are many ways that he could get hurt bad going in there with damage.
Chris Byrd wasnt gonna injure Vitali permanantley.
Thats my take anyway.Thats the way I remember that fight. I dont know, maybe Byrd was doing something i didnt see. I remember it as all Vitali.
One thing also. that was a "title" fight.They dont present come along everyday.
Gotta go the extra mile.

One thing I don't understand, from someone who has fought w/ a strained shoulder before, is why did he keep using his left so much if he was in so much pain?? It makes no sense. If you throw hard punches with even a sprained rotator you will wince from the pain. When Holyfield fought Byrd and tore his rotator as well, he pretty much stopped throwing left hands. Vitali was throwing hard left jabs and hooks the whole fight like it was nothing.

If his left shoulder was in excruciating pain, he should've simply moved and fired straight right hands or even switched southpaw. Considering Byrd's lack of power and lack of consistent offense in general, I don't understand why Vitali would not have gone that route. I can understanding staying on your stool from a bad injury, but if Vitali injured it so early as he and his people claimed, the guy basically kept making it tens times worse by throwing tons of left hands. Something doesn't quite gel. Either the 'Dr.' is incredibly stupid or he really injured it that last round and at that point the pain was so much he retired. I do think in the euro-tradition retiring from an injury is not seen as 'quitting' like it is in the states.

He just was never that good --- or intelligent --- a fighter, Demps. That's the truth of big bro. Wlad was always the more talented, heralded fighter, until only recent times.

Him and his brother are throwing fits about facing David Haye, nvm facing anyone in the 70's

Always fun to debate these..

Just one note in reply to the no chin, etc, comment...

Vitali has NEVER been down! Lewis and Vitali landed wrecking balls on each other and neither guy moved. Great fight to go back too. I could see either guy have a shot at winning the fight down the stretch. Lewis decided right there to hang it up and not rematch. And, to jump the subject I think Lewis would have beat every guy on the 73 list with the exception of possibly getting caught by Foreman (who I think he would have outboxed till he was tired).

Lewis outbox Foreman!?

Yeah, Lewis was a master quickster, with snappy footwork

Lewis is far too sluggish to outbox Foreman. I'd give him a very slim chance of clinching & jabbing his way into the later rounds, but if he somehow came up a winner against Foreman, it'd be a result of a better boxing brain & superior tactics. The speed of Foreman's assault was deceptively quick. He roared out of the corner, & Lewis likely would never have been ready for it.

GI
This is one of those points where you and I disagree.
I do think Foreman was slowish. And could be out boxed
and out worked. Provided one had the size (lewis) or
the speed-movement.

I think Lewis could out box, as such, the 1970s Foreman.
Provided it was a peak and well schooled Lewis.

I'm with Goodnight. The 70s Foreman's speed is very under-rated (due understandably to the fact that the fight he's shown most in is the Ali fight, in which George, extremely overconfident, negated any speed he had in the early rounds by throwing ridiculously wide shots) Lewis was a more disciplined boxer but he would be pulled into a war early like Briggs was able to do. But unlike Briggs, Foreman had an iron chin, was not asthmatic, and had much more in the tool-chest. Lewis gets toppled w/ an uppercut by the 5th.

Robinson wrote:GI
This is one of those points where you and I disagree.
I do think Foreman was slowish. And could be out boxed
and out worked. Provided one had the size (lewis) or
the speed-movement.

I think Lewis could out box, as such, the 1970s Foreman.
Provided it was a peak and well schooled Lewis.

It's difficult for me to envision a slower fighter outboxing an opponent. Lewis was no quicker in moving about the ring than Foreman. He was, after all, twenty pounds heavier at their respective peak weights. I can see a case where Lewis is the smarter fighter, executes a disciplined gameplan of holding & jabbing, & perhaps leaning on Foreman (which Lewis was good at). Be interesting to see how Foreman coped with a bigger man laying on him in-close.

Foreman wasn't fast of hand or foot, but his actual assault was very quick. He stormed onto the opponents' guard, & threw an absolutely frenetic number of punches --- of course, you don't need me to describe it, we've all seen it. People think of Foreman as slower than he really was, but I don't see him being out-sped by Lewis.

Keep this well in mind, too --- even if Lewis is tremendously effective at negating Foreman, the fights with McCall, Rahman &, to a lesser extent, Briggs, prove Foreman only need land once, not several times, to win this fight.

I think Lewis jab and distance is enough to win a safe decision
over Foreman. I agree totally that Foreman had the power to
drop Lewis. So did a lot of guys that faced Lewis. And some
got through...as mentioned above.

I personally feel that Lewis had it in him, provided he was in
top form to beat Foreman. I think Foreman thought this himself
and that is perhaps why as commentator he was always a salesman
and cheerleader of the big Briton-Canadian-Jamaican.