BoxRec

dempseyfire wrote:
You clearly don't understand the rudimentaries of boxing.

Jirov and Hagler besides both being southpaws are complete opposites.

Sam Peter couldn't put a dent in Toney b/c the guy sucks . . he has piss-poor accuracy, and an awful work-rate and conditioning. I guess Reggie Johnson had Sam Peter power b/c he put Toney on his ass too, and unlike Peter's balance shot it was a legit KD.

Hager had more skills and stamina than Peter has ever dreamed of.

All I can say is...WORD !

I think it would be a close fight with both men looking battered at the end. Toney would have a lot sucess forcing haggler to come on to him, but ultimatly haggler wins due to work rate for fighting 3 mins of each round.

To say Suger Ray sparks Toney thou is a joke surly, Ray wouldnt make dent on toney and neither would duran.

Hagler batters Toney in route to a wide decision victory.

Toney isn't even a top 30 Middleweight All Time.

I am just repeating what others have said, but how could anyone possibly pick Toney? Anyone who picks James has simply never seen Toney's Middleweight fights. He was dominated by Nunn until Nunn ran out of gas and got caught; Hagler would not run out of gas, would not be dropped by Toney. McCallum, Tiberi and possibly Johnson were all robbed against Toney; that version of James would have been landslided by Marvin Hagler. This is not even a particularly competitive fight. To be fair, Toney was weight drained for much of his Middleweight title reign. But even if he had not been, Toney at his best still probably loses a close decision to Hagler, though in a great fight.

IFF

I think Hagler wins but I think some of those observations reagrding the Nunn fight are a bit harsh.

Nunn would probably have been up on points at the halfway mark against Marvin and Carlos before they'd have caught up with him. And when I watch the fight again now Toney chops him down bit by bit rather than landing a lucky one when he got tired. Toney senses the win and walks through the straighter shots to land the punches which drain Nunn.

Ezzard wrote:IFF

I think Hagler wins but I think some of those observations reagrding the Nunn fight are a bit harsh.

Nunn would probably have been up on points at the halfway mark against Marvin and Carlos before they'd have caught up with him. And when I watch the fight again now Toney chops him down bit by bit rather than landing a lucky one when he got tired. Toney senses the win and walks through the straighter shots to land the punches which drain Nunn.

I have seen the fight a few times. Nunn wins the first eight rounds or so, then starts to slow down and gets stopped in the 11th. Toney's body punching did help slow Nunn and his punch out put down.
That win says nothing of how Toney would do against Hagler, since Marvin would not go out like that, and he would be there for 15, let alone 11. Hagler would get better as the fight went on.

I Feel Fine wrote: That win says nothing of how Toney would do against Hagler, since Marvin would not go out like that, and he would be there for 15, let alone 11. Hagler would get better as the fight went on.

agreed

Ezzard wrote:IFF

I think Hagler wins but I think some of those observations reagrding the Nunn fight are a bit harsh.

Nunn would probably have been up on points at the halfway mark against Marvin and Carlos before they'd have caught up with him. And when I watch the fight again now Toney chops him down bit by bit rather than landing a lucky one when he got tired. Toney senses the win and walks through the straighter shots to land the punches which drain Nunn.

thank you. the misconceptions that get spouted about that win drive me mad

Counter-puncher wrote:

Ezzard wrote:IFF

I think Hagler wins but I think some of those observations reagrding the Nunn fight are a bit harsh.

Nunn would probably have been up on points at the halfway mark against Marvin and Carlos before they'd have caught up with him. And when I watch the fight again now Toney chops him down bit by bit rather than landing a lucky one when he got tired. Toney senses the win and walks through the straighter shots to land the punches which drain Nunn.

thank you. the misconceptions that get spouted about that win drive me mad

Just for clarities sake, I never suggested that Toney landed a lucky punch. I think he won the last three or four rounds of the fight, and had Nunn hurt at one point prior to the 11th. I do think his body punching helped slow Nunn down. But, as I said, I think that says nothing of how he would do against Hagler.

Rocky Balboa wrote:

dangerousjohnny wrote:Toney beats Hagler 7 days a week & twice on Sunday regardless of the weight class

WOW! That's a very bold prediciton imo!

He's the same dude who said Sturm would beat Monzon so take it with a grain of salt

giacomino wrote:

Rocky Balboa wrote:

dangerousjohnny wrote:Toney beats Hagler 7 days a week & twice on Sunday regardless of the weight class

WOW! That's a very bold prediciton imo!

He's the same dude who said Sturm would beat Monzon so take it with a grain of salt

And that Clyde Gray would have destroyed Thomas Hearns if he'd been in his prime when they met.

Gotta go along with the Hagler bandwagon here. Toney just wouldn't be busy enough, and even with his great defense he'd eat some of Hagler's leather. Hagler wins the battle of wills and therefore the fight by lopsided decision.

Seamus wrote:Hagler batters Toney in route to a wide decision victory.

Toney isn't even a top 30 Middleweight All Time.

Come on now...that's as complete HATE as one can exhibit...
Did Toney not autograph something for you...I mean, what?
Well since you mentioned top-30 MW...name me 30 who'd beat Toney?
I can only think of 2...Robinson & Hagler...maybe Monzon...I've seen many Monzon fights, and I believe Toney would take him...

^^^

ts20743 wrote:

Seamus wrote:Hagler batters Toney in route to a wide decision victory.

Toney isn't even a top 30 Middleweight All Time.

Come on now...that's as complete HATE as one can exhibit...
Did Toney not autograph something for you...I mean, what?
Well since you mentioned top-30 MW...name me 30 who'd beat Toney?
I can only think of 2...Robinson & Hagler...maybe Monzon...I've seen many Monzon fights, and I believe Toney would take him...

The guy hardly beat Johnson, drew with McCallum the 1st time around and was trailing on all scorecards before KTFO Nunn. That's 3 fights during his 6 fights title reign at MW. That makes him top 3 MW all time?

Jaywheel wrote:

ts20743 wrote:

Seamus wrote:Hagler batters Toney in route to a wide decision victory.

Toney isn't even a top 30 Middleweight All Time.

Come on now...that's as complete HATE as one can exhibit...
Did Toney not autograph something for you...I mean, what?
Well since you mentioned top-30 MW...name me 30 who'd beat Toney?
I can only think of 2...Robinson & Hagler...maybe Monzon...I've seen many Monzon fights, and I believe Toney would take him...

The guy hardly beat Johnson, drew with McCallum the 1st time around and was trailing on all scorecards before KTFO Nunn. That's 3 fights during his 6 fights title reign at MW. That makes him top 3 MW all time?

Reggie Johnson wasn't exactly Glass Joe on Mike Tyson's Punchout --he was world-class...and as young as Toney was at that time, having close fights with McCallum, said a lot about how talented Toney was...he looked no worse than Taylor did in escaping BHop both times...to contrast...McCallum was beast in his day, and HOF fighter in waiting...I'd take MD & D in 2 fights with him...

ts20743 wrote:..and as young as Toney was at that time, having close fights with McCallum, said a lot about how talented Toney was...he looked no worse than Taylor did in escaping BHop both times...to contrast...McCallum was beast in his day, and HOF fighter in waiting...I'd take MD & D in 2 fights with him...

- Well, now, pard, that's more like it.

Toney more in line with Taylor than any top 30 middleweight. Be a good scrap I'd favor Taylor in since he won his battles with the old timer. Toney's oldtimer was a division up from his original weight class and he still couldn't show any class over him first go round.

Jermain Taylor over James Toney . . . .BBR keeps breaking new ground here, I'll just stick around for the prediction that Tye Fields would beat Jerry Quarry.

dempseyfire wrote:Jermain Taylor over James Toney . . . .BBR keeps breaking new ground here, I'll just stick around for the prediction that Tye Fields would beat Jerry Quarry.

- Sonnyboy, when I tell you to hitch a skeeter to a plow, best just do it.

Jermain twice beat the IBRO 13th ranked middle of all time. Toney drew with a fighter not mentioned at all, not even on the consolation listings.

Moreover, Mr. Popkins still remains relevant as a highly ranked fighter even if I consider him overranked. Nobody knows who actually wins hypothetical bouts, but your choice is poorly supported.

Need to find another sport to follow. Clearly you're out of your depth.

ts20743 wrote:

Jaywheel wrote:

ts20743 wrote:Come on now...that's as complete HATE as one can exhibit...
Did Toney not autograph something for you...I mean, what?
Well since you mentioned top-30 MW...name me 30 who'd beat Toney?
I can only think of 2...Robinson & Hagler...maybe Monzon...I've seen many Monzon fights, and I believe Toney would take him...

The guy hardly beat Johnson, drew with McCallum the 1st time around and was trailing on all scorecards before KTFO Nunn. That's 3 fights during his 6 fights title reign at MW. That makes him top 3 MW all time?

Reggie Johnson wasn't exactly Glass Joe on Mike Tyson's Punchout --he was world-class...and as young as Toney was at that time, having close fights with McCallum, said a lot about how talented Toney was...he looked no worse than Taylor did in escaping BHop both times...to contrast...McCallum was beast in his day, and HOF fighter in waiting...I'd take MD & D in 2 fights with him...

So at number 3 and 4 in the All time Middleweight rankings, I give you: James Toney and Jermain Taylor.
oh and ts20743, LaMotta is on the line for you, he said Monzon was busy so he'd take that matter over and speak directly to you.

Toney beating Monzon? Did someone actually say this? Or imagine it somehow?

For me this thread was more about Toney's ability to be standing at the end of a Hagler 12 or 15 round exchange, and to perform in a way that is competitive. Even in a way we might not have imagined after his loss to RJJ. Which I think is plausable. But beating Hagler and Monzon? It's got to be a very minority viewpoint, and one that takes a whole lot of things to go Toney's way that are NOT overly likely IMHO. Anytime two good fighters step in the ring it's a crapshoot. But you have to go with the most likely outcomes most of the time.

In the recent past (since his middleweight years) Toney has proven to be unimaginably durable. So I think he does better than Hearns and possibly as good as Duran vs the Marvelous one. But the odds of a victory over Hagler based on durability and his good defense ability still has to be considered a bit of a longshot I suppose. He slips punches well, but not as well as Duran, He's not as fast as Duran, and I'm not sure at MW he hits any harder than Duran. However he can match Haglers chin IMHO. And that makes this a recipe for a very destructive and punishing affair. And maybe they both lose....a lot. But wouldn't it be far more likely that Marvin gets the points win?

When I posted this I never dreamed that the art of imagineering could take us this far.

I would say Hagler to strong and relentless he wouldnt give him a moment Hagler wide UD decision

hagler wins un 15 rounder both look like they have just gone 25 rounds,just a thought but would weighing in day before fight make a difference more than 12 or 15 round distance as toney had weight problems since day he was born

Have always been impressed with Toney's chin and skill, but Hagler, and certainly Monzon and SR Robinson all win decisions over him

hagler by a decision IMO just to fit and would of worked hard enough for the win