Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?

[Final round]

Carl is always value for money and never fails to get in a tear up that's true but sadly for him it doesn't make him the best SMW in the world. Calzaghe also moved up and beat the best at a higher weight which Carl seems reluctant to do. Tbf I was hoping Joe would have fought Dawson instead of RJJ as I thought he would have won that but ..

all this "he beat the best at LH" he beat hopkins who only had one fight at LH previous to that fight against tarver in another bore fest hopkins fight,imo dawson was the best LH at that time and also for me,to be the best at a weight you got to have more than one fight at a weight,even if you beat the world rated best at that weight cause as we all know styles make fights. joe fought hopkins and rjj at LH at a combined age of 83-84 these two wasnt the best at LH.

Hopkins was rated number 1 in Ring 2007, Dawson was 5th. 2008 Calzaghe 1, Hopkins 2 , Dawson 3.

[fasteddie]

Carl is always value for money and never fails to get in a tear up that's true but sadly for him it doesn't make him the best SMW in the world. Calzaghe also moved up and beat the best at a higher weight which Carl seems reluctant to do. Tbf I was hoping Joe would have fought Dawson instead of RJJ as I thought he would have won that but ..

all this "he beat the best at LH" he beat hopkins who only had one fight at LH previous to that fight against tarver in another bore fest hopkins fight,imo dawson was the best LH at that time and also for me,to be the best at a weight you got to have more than one fight at a weight,even if you beat the world rated best at that weight cause as we all know styles make fights. joe fought hopkins and rjj at LH at a combined age of 83-84 these two wasnt the best at LH.

Hopkins was rated number 1 in Ring 2007, Dawson was 5th. 2008 Calzaghe 1, Hopkins 2 , Dawson 3.

he was ranked no.1 for beating tarver who beat dawson,this was the only fight hopkins had fought at LH,and tell me who owns ring magazine??? golden boy who runs golden boy?? oscar and hopkins, see what im getting at? there was no way hopkins could be ranked best LH with only one fight at the weight,even if he would of beat calzaghe i wouldnt of said he was no.1 cause that was calzaghe's first fight at the weight too.

[youngrell]

So if you beat the number 1 in the division, you don't become the new number 1?

[youngrell]

No, I do not dislike him at all. I simply find his accomplishments and his fans who laud these accomplishments, overrated. It's almost as if no one is allowed to even be considered superior, in anyway. Let alone anyone from the UK. It's fine to disagree with me but if we talk about legacies and 'stepping up', Calzaghe has left plenty of scope for his accomplishments to be debated.

They have all been covered in this thread, so no point listing them all again. Reid and Hopkins? The point is that plenty thought Joe lost 2 fights, whether you agree with that or not does not make is less accurate and, in my opinion cases can be made that Calzaghe should have 2 losses on his record. Same applies to Froch vs Dirrell. He lost that one, too, in my opinion. That was the point in mentioning them. In those fights, he never was interested in offering a return, in particular to Reid. Joe was all about ending his career undefeated, at all costs. He had a couple of scares did not want to know. That says a lot.

It's just bitterness from his fans that cannot accept that a) Froch does have a better legacy and b) As Yiddo also pointed out, so does Ward. It's not a crime, its just the way it is.

'Let it go' ? Let what go? The fact I can offer another viewpoint? Surely that is the point. Realistically evaluating Calzaghe's record is not the same as 'diminishing it'. The same applies to Froch.

Fair enough mate, just your constant banging on about 2 WINS for Calzaghe being disputed seemed like a little bitterness and like you're clutching at straws a bit. It seems Hopkins gets more credit for losing than Joe does for getting the W, which to me shows that people maybe dislike the guy, which is fair enough but maybe clouds their judgement.

I also think Dirrell deserved the decision versus Froch but I haven't used that against Froch, it doesn't diminish his legacy for me.

The reasons I gave for believing Joe's legacy is currently greater is due to him being the top dog in his division, his longevity and his unbeaten record. And I know not all the comp was world class, but people will remember him for being undefeated. People will remember Froch for being a good fighter with a fearless attitude. If Froch was unbeaten, well then there really isn't a debate to be had.

[expe]

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/ ... ts/?ref=mr

It seems Joe thinks it's a joke that Carl considers his legacy superior than his own. Joe seems somewhat deluded

errm,am i missing something here?? since when has a ring magazine belt been a world title???? joe calzaghe is eating sour grapes end of story and carl froch is a 100 times more value for money than joe calslappy. when joe was fighting kessler kessler hurt joe and he went on the back foot and didnt wanna know for the rest of the fight,when carl got hurt by kessler what did he do?? stood his ground and fired shots back which hurt kessler so for me froch is value for money over calzaghe by a country mile-note im saying more value for money.

After that all future points you make are irrelevant, so, fornicate OFF
Edit: Why the fornicate are we not allowed to swear?

[fasteddie]

So if you beat the number 1 in the division, you don't become the new number 1?

no i dont think so,when hatton fought tszyu people were saying hatton was the new no.1 in the division but how could this be when tszyu was out the ring for over 11 months and the division had mayweather,gatti,cotto and prime judah, these would of beat hatton apart from gatti imo.

[fasteddie]

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/ ... ts/?ref=mr

It seems Joe thinks it's a joke that Carl considers his legacy superior than his own. Joe seems somewhat deluded

errm,am i missing something here?? since when has a ring magazine belt been a world title???? joe calzaghe is eating sour grapes end of story and carl froch is a 100 times more value for money than joe calslappy. when joe was fighting kessler kessler hurt joe and he went on the back foot and didnt wanna know for the rest of the fight,when carl got hurt by kessler what did he do?? stood his ground and fired shots back which hurt kessler so for me froch is value for money over calzaghe by a country mile-note im saying more value for money.

After that all future points you make are irrelevant, so, eff OFF
Edit: Why the eff are we not allowed to swear?

ohh no, my future points are irrelevant?? please dont. fornicate off like i give a shit what you think of my points,its a forum were people can put their points across and get involved in debates. end of the day froch is a better warrior in the ring than calzaghe,his class of opponent proves this. plus only ever been down once in his life were froch got put down by two jerryatricks and mitchell

[fasteddie]

here is the thing right,take away the 0 from calzaghe and what is left????

[youngrell]

But his 0 isn't taken away, is it?

[youngrell]

So if you beat the number 1 in the division, you don't become the new number 1?

no i dont think so,when hatton fought tszyu people were saying hatton was the new no.1 in the division but how could this be when tszyu was out the ring for over 11 months and the division had mayweather,gatti,cotto and prime judah, these would of beat hatton apart from gatti imo.

Riiiiight ok. So what you're saying is, you don't have to beat The Man, you just have to have the fans perceive you can beat him?

Let's just throw title lineage out the window, eh?

[fasteddie]

So if you beat the number 1 in the division, you don't become the new number 1?

no i dont think so,when hatton fought tszyu people were saying hatton was the new no.1 in the division but how could this be when tszyu was out the ring for over 11 months and the division had mayweather,gatti,cotto and prime judah, these would of beat hatton apart from gatti imo.

Riiiiight ok. So what you're saying is, you don't have to beat The Man, you just have to have the fans perceive you can beat him?

so,in your opinion was hopkins the man at that time givin the facts?? was tszyu the man in your opinion when hatton beat him givin the facts??

[fasteddie]

So if you beat the number 1 in the division, you don't become the new number 1?

no i dont think so,when hatton fought tszyu people were saying hatton was the new no.1 in the division but how could this be when tszyu was out the ring for over 11 months and the division had mayweather,gatti,cotto and prime judah, these would of beat hatton apart from gatti imo.

Riiiiight ok. So what you're saying is, you don't have to beat The Man, you just have to have the fans perceive you can beat him?

cause i dont think hopkins was the man at that time

[youngrell]

You don't lose your title by being out of the ring 11 months and some new guy coming along who might be better than you.

[youngrell]

cause i dont think hopkins was the man at that time

Well Tarver was the man, Hopkins beat Tarver, Calzaghe beat Hopkins. It's that simple. You can't give Chad Dawson credit for any of that.

[fasteddie]

with this thread i would say if these two ever met it would be a war as two of them are fighters and believe in their own ability,for us fans it would of been a treat to watch the boxer in joe calzaghe vs the tough fighter in carl froch,if froch didnt get to calzaghe by round 6 then it would of been pretty much a jeff lacey style win for calzaghe but it would of been nice to see if froch toughness and willingness got to calzaghe,two greats from these shores no matter what. to me this thread is full of alot of different opinions and all thinking we are right. i doubt there are many that can see anything other than a calzaghe win in this bout,if it would of happened but it didnt so all we can go on is what we think. joe is a great and carl is too but record for record id pick froch as the better record with the better names on it,if he beats ward in a rematch then we can start talking about if he has a better legacy than calzaghe but until then we gotta say joe pips him.

[youngrell]

with this thread i would say if these two ever met it would be a war as two of them are fighters and believe in their own ability,for us fans it would of been a treat to watch the boxer in joe calzaghe vs the tough fighter in carl froch,if froch didnt get to calzaghe by round 6 then it would of been pretty much a jeff lacey style win for calzaghe but it would of been nice to see if froch toughness and willingness got to calzaghe,two greats from these shores no matter what. to me this thread is full of alot of different opinions and all thinking we are right. i doubt there are many that can see anything other than a calzaghe win in this bout,if it would of happened but it didnt so all we can go on is what we think. joe is a great and carl is too but record for record id pick froch as the better record with the better names on it,if he beats ward in a rematch then we can start talking about if he has a better legacy than calzaghe but until then we gotta say joe pips him.

[Quixall]

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/ ... ts/?ref=mr

It seems Joe thinks it's a joke that Carl considers his legacy superior than his own. Joe seems somewhat deluded

I think so too..............

Talks about Kessler being past his prime, so what does he call Jones and Hopkins at the time they fought ??

Asks if Taylor is a world class fighter ?? The same Taylor who beat Hopkins twice, that Hopkins that Joe reckons cements his place in the pantheon of the fightings gods. Then reckons that Froch lost to Dirrel, well he could have, but there are a fair few people who think Joe lost to Hopkins. Froch is way out with his statement about being the next best after lennox lewis, but Joe and Carl don't like each other and it's clear to see that Joe doesn't like the success that Froch has had of late. If he thinks Cleverley beats Carl, then his opinions mean jack to be honest.

[Quixall]

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/ ... ts/?ref=mr

It seems Joe thinks it's a joke that Carl considers his legacy superior than his own. Joe seems somewhat deluded

as I wrote earlier, the fact that joe never really strove for greatness seems to be eating him up a little in retirement. He's seemed a little jealous of carl for a while now. Ultimately, if carls so awful, why didn't he take the fight.

Look, they are both class fighters, legends in fact. But carls put his balls on the line travelling away from home against top names. Joe moaned about flying and injuries. Its a bit of a case of reaping what you sow, no point crying now.

Bang on the money Stevie

[Quixall]

Carl is always value for money and never fails to get in a tear up that's true but sadly for him it doesn't make him the best SMW in the world. Calzaghe also moved up and beat the best at a higher weight which Carl seems reluctant to do. Tbf I was hoping Joe would have fought Dawson instead of RJJ as I thought he would have won that but ..

Seems reluctant to do now !!!

He may move up to 175lbs in a short while. There are possibilities of a third fight with Kessler, a re-match with Ward and possibly a re-match with Bute in Canada, though that seems unlikely from Bute's point of view. There could also be a match up with Groves. By that time, if Cleverley is still operating at the top level at 175lbs, carl could move up. Fights involving Cloud, Dawson and Hopkins could all be made, Carl has many many options at this stage in his career. Difference with Carl, is that you know he will go out and look for the biggest fights.

[expe]

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/ ... ts/?ref=mr



errm,am i missing something here?? since when has a ring magazine belt been a world title???? joe calzaghe is eating sour grapes end of story and carl froch is a 100 times more value for money than joe calslappy. when joe was fighting kessler kessler hurt joe and he went on the back foot and didnt wanna know for the rest of the fight,when carl got hurt by kessler what did he do?? stood his ground and fired shots back which hurt kessler so for me froch is value for money over calzaghe by a country mile-note im saying more value for money.

After that all future points you make are irrelevant, so, eff OFF
Edit: Why the eff are we not allowed to swear?

ohh no, my future points are irrelevant?? please dont. eff off like i give a poo what you think of my points,its a forum were people can put their points across and get involved in debates. end of the day froch is a better warrior in the ring than calzaghe,his class of opponent proves this. plus only ever been down once in his life were froch got put down by two jerryatricks and mitchell

I can't take anyone who calls Calzaghe 'Calslappy' seriously, it's just childish. It's similar with Froch and 'Warrior', I'm sick of hearing how he's a warrior and has a granite chin and is unbelievably tough, tell us something we don't already know.

Edit: I know the quotes are wrong, but I can't be arsed trying to fix them.

[Autobarn]

slow down everyone. i know it's fun but a legacy is what a fighter leaves behind after he's retired!

calzaghe and froch had/have totally different careers. calzaghe's vacant title fell into place for him vs a determinted if faded domestic legend (eubank) after a slow burn start to his career. and after about 8 years of racking up the defenses the unification matches also fell into place for him in which he truly delivered in 2 masterful displays, making up for a somewhat uneventful reign. he also won the 175 title but looked weirdly vulnerable and open, especially early on, displaying vulnerabilities that perhaps had been papered over by carfeful matchmaking in the UK (i.e. as few good counter punchers as possible and no rematches of close wins). joe retired undefeated but like marciano he holds a narrow/debatable win or two.

froch was trapped in domestic limbo, he was an outsider to the FW order, he finally got the vacant title in a bruising fight vs an unbeaten and inspired fighter (pascal, who has similar problems of concentration to eubank, especially in the strategic fights). froch practically screamed for and demanded the biggest name possible, taylor, after being ridiculed, whom he destroyed in a come-from-behind win. an up and down run in the super 6 - shaky win over dirrell, masterclass vs abraham, losing a war to kessler, beating johnson then losing final to ward - saw him apparently burn out...then a stonking win over unbeaten bute and thrilling revenge vs kessler represent his best work and show a refreshed, happier fighter...

froch could be in a 2nd prime or it could all be downhill - and what happens next determines the "legacy". joe had one big streak whereas carl seems to fight in fierce, evander holyfield or azumah nelson style surges more typical of fighters who have more bone-crunching careers. froch's win over kessler could be the limit, or it could suggest future glory.

[desperados]

Would anyone seriously pick Froch to beat a prime Calzaghe if they fought head-to-head?

I think the concensus is that Joe would take him to pieces on the basis he was a far superior fighter.

[Autobarn]

it'd have been one hell of a fight. joe was open to the right hand and it annoyed the hell out of me that no one really tried to combine the right hand with the left hook to try and force joe back in an offensive fight. froch showed something in the bute fight, that vs a southpaw he's willing to go for it and damage the opponent obviously bute and calzaghe are different animals but it's the principle i'm talking about: vs a southpaw, don't let the fight drift away from you (as froch did vs magee, a bit) - take the fight by the scruff of the neck and go for the jugular. joe would probably have a lead, but carl is dangerous from 1-12 (look at strong finishes vs taylor, pascal and kessler 2) and joe was always careless in the final round (brewer, eubank, kessler).

[jessi]

Would anyone seriously pick Froch to beat a prime Calzaghe if they fought head-to-head?

I think the concensus is that Joe would take him to pieces on the basis he was a far superior fighter.

I'd pick froch now, froch when both at there peak ! But calzage if they had met 4 or 5 years ago !
We shall never know :(

[banjo]

Call Hopkins a "jerryatrick" all you want but he's still competing with and beating world class fighters young enough to be his kids.

If Frochs next fight was against Hopkins I know who I'd be betting on and it won't be the Englishman.