Who is The #1 Heavyweight of All Time?

[Woldemar]

How many topics in this forum " Who the best heavyweight all time" ?))):)

[Controversial]

Vitali was fighting Cedric Boswell. Would have been one of his tougher fights.

Yep on the Lewis undercard, Boswell was unbeaten at that time. Lewis was due to fight Kirk Johnson but Johnson pulled out with a muscle tear in his chest two weeks before the fight, thats why Klit was offered his place. Lewis was planning to fight Klitschko after Johnson. Poor prep by Lewis, first fight in over a year and the heaviest he ever weighed. Still good enough to beat Klit.

[Kalan]

YOUR TALKING MORE GARBAGE!!!!

Cedric Boswell was a 2nd rater.. He hadn't fought a single name or decent opponent at that time -- and was knocked out by Jameel McCline in his next fight.

Every big Boxing fan knew who Kirk Johnson was... Hardly anybody knew who Boswell was. NOT a guy you need a big training camp for.

[BoxBuzz]

YOUR TALKING MORE GARBAGE!!!!

Cedric Boswell was a 2nd rater.. He hadn't fought a single name or decent opponent at that time -- and was knocked out by Jameel McCline in his next fight.

Every big Boxing fan knew who Kirk Johnson was... Hardly anybody knew who Boswell was. NOT a guy you need a big training camp for.

You were recently touting the merits of McCall......and Cedric managed a win over him. Your right though, he was not well recognized by anyone other than people paying close attention to boxing.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Vitali was fighting Cedric Boswell. Would have been one of his tougher fights.

Yep on the Lewis undercard, Boswell was unbeaten at that time. Lewis was due to fight Kirk Johnson but Johnson pulled out with a muscle tear in his chest two weeks before the fight, thats why Klit was offered his place. Lewis was planning to fight Klitschko after Johnson. Poor prep by Lewis, first fight in over a year and the heaviest he ever weighed. Still good enough to beat Klit.

Certainly not Vitali's fault that Lennox was preparing to harpoon the whale that Vitali did later. Conversely, it isn't Lennox fault that Vitali's greatest day can't measure up to his worst.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

YOUR TALKING MORE GARBAGE!!!!

Cedric Boswell was a 2nd rater.. He hadn't fought a single name or decent opponent at that time -- and was knocked out by Jameel McCline in his next fight.

Every big Boxing fan knew who Kirk Johnson was... Hardly anybody knew who Boswell was. NOT a guy you need a big training camp for.

It's 'you're' cupcake. I wasn't trumping Boswell as anything special, Vitali's resume is just as pitiful as your posting history. He was owning McCline, btw, fell apart in the last round.

[gilgamesh]

YOUR TALKING MORE GARBAGE!!!!

Cedric Boswell was a 2nd rater.. He hadn't fought a single name or decent opponent at that time -- and was knocked out by Jameel McCline in his next fight.

Every big Boxing fan knew who Kirk Johnson was... Hardly anybody knew who Boswell was. NOT a guy you need a big training camp for.

It's 'you're' cupcake. I wasn't trumping Boswell as anything special, Vitali's resume is just as pitiful as your posting history. He was owning McCline, btw, fell apart in the last round.

Yeah I had him ahead by 1 point going into the 10th round against McCline, McCline definitely pulled that one out of the fire.

[jbizzle20]

When you land a lucky punch you had help from your opponent... He made his chin available... The video record is clear... After almost getting knocked out in the first 2 rounds, Lewis f*cked Vitali up shortly into the 3rd round with an obvious thumb strike to the corner of VK's left eye... a wrestling grab around the head and Lewis's hair rubbed into the nick he opened with the thumb strike - while he held Vitali around the neck - followed... then maintaining his headlock Lewis ripped Vitali with a palm rake with his right glove... All those fouls opened 3 major cuts on Vitali's face (including his cheek) and blood started streaming into his left eye... That was the only time Vitali ever suffered a serious cut in his career -- and the only fight Lewis ever won on cuts... That fight should have gone to the scorecards because fouls contributed mightily to those cuts... Proper result??? Vitali Klitschko wins by Unanimous Technical Decision over Lennox Lewis in 6 rounds.. I think it's interesting that Klitschko could maintain his lead on the scorecards having to fight 4 rounds half blinded.

Kind of like Ward-Kessler went to the scorecards -- because unintentional head-butts by Ward opened a far less severe cut on Kessler.

As for Lewis fighting Vitali on 2 weeks notice... Lewis had been training for a World Heavyweight Championship Fight for MONTHS... Vitali had less than 2 weeks to prepare for a World Heavyweight Championship Fight.. Lewis retired after they made Vitali his mandatory challenger -- and after vociferously proclaiming he would give Vitali a rematch.. LL knew he dodged a bullet and wouldn't have Lou Moret as his referee in the rematch.

I think you're totally confused man. Lewis took the fight on 2 weeks notice. It said so in the broadcast. Klitschko was prepping for a Lewis fight his entire career, up until that point. Lewis basically retired after Tyson and didn't think it was worth defending against Byrd then people clamored so loudly for Lewis to fight Klitschko that he got tired of it and fought him anyway just to quiet them. After beating Klitschko, Lewis realized that the public would never be satisfied no matter who he beat, so he just called it quits. Lewis' mother pleaded with him to call it quits, as well. Those two factors convinced Lewis to walk away. This is substantially documented. As far as the cuts, it looked more like the big counter that Lewis landed near the start of the 3rd. That was a clean, hard overhand that ripped across Klitschko's face. Lewis was throwing his jabs in a raking motion across the face, but with the knuckles of the glove. It almost look like he was doing it because of exhaustion. The punches were just thrown out there with no whip on them. After Lewis realized how bad the cuts were getting, he started targeting them. That's a very
common strategy in boxing.

Klitschko was NOT prepping for Lewis. Lewis wasn't the champ for his whole career. Lewis lost the title a couple times and there was no guarantee he was going to win it back. Klitschko would be foolish to focus on Lewis, who could lose the title at any time. And a Heavyweight Champion's training camp is altogether different than anybody else's training camp -- except for the guy who's scheduled to be his next challenger. Because you pull out all stops when you're the champ... you line up more sparring partners, trainers, coaches, and just more help in general -- because it's important you hold on to the title, and important that you win the title. If you're preparing for a 2nd rate Heavyweight---such as Klitschko was doing---the pay isn't nearly as good.. You can't afford to invest millions in a training camp and you don't NEED to.. Lewis was getting 10 X the training expenses Klitschko was getting and he had a HELL of a lot more help on board. When the opportunity was presented Vitali had NO time to get more help on board -- Lewis already had everybody he needed in camp.

That overhand right 10 seconds into the 3rd round was a classic thumb strike... Within 5 seconds after that Lewis grabbed VK around the neck and slashed that nick open, while ripping open 2 more cuts on Vitali's face with a palm slash.. VK was pouring blood from his face when he came out of the clinch.. Klitschko should have been awarded the fight by Unanimous Technical Decision... More than 4 rounds were completed and he was winning on all scorecards. Since foul blows caused and contributed to the cuts the fight goes to the scorecards as the British TV announcers said it would. The fans knew who won the fight. They booed Lewis and cheered Vitali. Lewis promised Larry Merchant and the fans he would give Vitali a rematch. He lied.

You've got to be joking if you think that punch was illegal. All sanctioning bodies upheld the decision. You don't think they looked at the tape after all the publicity the fight got? Lewis had two weeks, TWO WEEKS. Vitali was no chump. I don't care how much help Lewis had, it takes much longer than two weeks to prepare for Vitali Klitschko, an ATG, no matter who you are. Let's not act like Vitali was poor, either. He was absolutely in shape and ready. If you are fighting for the top titles, you train like you are fighting for the top titles. Vitali did. He just couldn't finish off Lewis. He fixed that issue after the Lewis fight as he would go onto have an 87% KO percentage. The media, almost universally, mocked Lewis for his horrible conditioning. Lewis was so skilled and gifted that he could bail his ass out even when badly under-prepared. To do it against Vitali Klitschko, no less, was simply incredible. Come on Kalan, you aren't making any sense.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Spot on past vitali being an Atg. His resume is toilet paper.

[jbizzle20]

Also, Lewis said that before talking it over with his mother, whom he is very close to. I think Lewis realized that there is just no satisfying the press or fans when you are top dog. If he beat Vitali again probably everyone would've clamored for him to fight Wlad or Roy Jones or whoever else, next. Lewis just wasn't the kind of fighter who fights til he has no brain cells left.

[Controversial]

Lewis would've been 38 in the rematch, he was coming to the end of his career and had been fighting at a world level for more years than Klit had been a pro. Klit was younger, on his way up and always in shape, he was preparing to fight Lewis later in the year anyway. The challenger is invariably the hungrier or more dangerous opponent and sometimes these guys pull a great performance out the bag, for e.g Buster Douglas. He gave Lewis a tough fight but it wasn't good enough. It speaks volumes of Lewis' quality that he toughed it out and stopped Klit.

[BoxBuzz]

There is no greater tormentor than history, the facts of the matter, what really actually happened, to push the buttons of those who favor sentiment over the facts.

Wouldas and couldas. In boxing protect yourself at all times period. No excuses, destiny doesn't ring twice. The only boxer that I've seen that has a right to whine is Richard Grant. He got sucker punched 10 minutes after the fight was over. That incident is called assault. Vitali just got an old fashioned standard issue ass whuppin'. Even if he took a few licks himself in the process.

[Syntax Error]

I never once cheered for Lennox in a fight, but the hypocrisy is comical. He never came back, he won the fight, he's greater than both Klitschko's combined. Deal with it, it's never going to change.

[Kalan]

I think you're totally confused man. Lewis took the fight on 2 weeks notice. It said so in the broadcast. Klitschko was prepping for a Lewis fight his entire career, up until that point. Lewis basically retired after Tyson and didn't think it was worth defending against Byrd then people clamored so loudly for Lewis to fight Klitschko that he got tired of it and fought him anyway just to quiet them. After beating Klitschko, Lewis realized that the public would never be satisfied no matter who he beat, so he just called it quits. Lewis' mother pleaded with him to call it quits, as well. Those two factors convinced Lewis to walk away. This is substantially documented. As far as the cuts, it looked more like the big counter that Lewis landed near the start of the 3rd. That was a clean, hard overhand that ripped across Klitschko's face. Lewis was throwing his jabs in a raking motion across the face, but with the knuckles of the glove. It almost look like he was doing it because of exhaustion. The punches were just thrown out there with no whip on them. After Lewis realized how bad the cuts were getting, he started targeting them. That's a very
common strategy in boxing.

Klitschko was NOT prepping for Lewis. Lewis wasn't the champ for his whole career. Lewis lost the title a couple times and there was no guarantee he was going to win it back. Klitschko would be foolish to focus on Lewis, who could lose the title at any time. And a Heavyweight Champion's training camp is altogether different than anybody else's training camp -- except for the guy who's scheduled to be his next challenger. Because you pull out all stops when you're the champ... you line up more sparring partners, trainers, coaches, and just more help in general -- because it's important you hold on to the title, and important that you win the title. If you're preparing for a 2nd rate Heavyweight---such as Klitschko was doing---the pay isn't nearly as good.. You can't afford to invest millions in a training camp and you don't NEED to.. Lewis was getting 10 X the training expenses Klitschko was getting and he had a HELL of a lot more help on board. When the opportunity was presented Vitali had NO time to get more help on board -- Lewis already had everybody he needed in camp.

That overhand right 10 seconds into the 3rd round was a classic thumb strike... Within 5 seconds after that Lewis grabbed VK around the neck and slashed that nick open, while ripping open 2 more cuts on Vitali's face with a palm slash.. VK was pouring blood from his face when he came out of the clinch.. Klitschko should have been awarded the fight by Unanimous Technical Decision... More than 4 rounds were completed and he was winning on all scorecards. Since foul blows caused and contributed to the cuts the fight goes to the scorecards as the British TV announcers said it would. The fans knew who won the fight. They booed Lewis and cheered Vitali. Lewis promised Larry Merchant and the fans he would give Vitali a rematch. He lied.

You've got to be joking if you think that punch was illegal. All sanctioning bodies upheld the decision. You don't think they looked at the tape after all the publicity the fight got? Lewis had two weeks, TWO WEEKS. Vitali was no chump. I don't care how much help Lewis had, it takes much longer than two weeks to prepare for Vitali Klitschko, an ATG, no matter who you are. Let's not act like Vitali was poor, either. He was absolutely in shape and ready. If you are fighting for the top titles, you train like you are fighting for the top titles. Vitali did. He just couldn't finish off Lewis. He fixed that issue after the Lewis fight as he would go onto have an 87% KO percentage. The media, almost universally, mocked Lewis for his horrible conditioning. Lewis was so skilled and gifted that he could bail his ass out even when badly under-prepared. To do it against Vitali Klitschko, no less, was simply incredible. Come on Kalan, you aren't making any sense.

You ARE joking...

Since when have injustices such as Lewis-Holyfield 1... Pacquiao-Bradley 1... Hagler-Antefermo 1... Whitaker-Chavez... or any other horrible decisions reversed except by politics and powerful influence... Riddick Bowe was DQd for hitting Buster Mathis Jr when he was down... That decision was undone... Julio Cesar Chavez had an early decision by the judges reversed because his dad was on the Boxing Commission...

But Chavez's 2nd fight with Frankie Randall was a joke outcome -- that wasn't reversed... Ali refused a referee’s direct order to go to a neutral corner so Sonny Liston never got a count in Ali-Liston II. The count wasn’t suspended and that was never reversed… Amir Khan hit Zab Judah with a low blow while he was holding his head down with his left forearm... That wasn't reversed... Lennox Lewis KO'd Michael Grant with a flagrant holding and hitting foul... That wasn't reversed... Boxing let all those monstrosities stand. Unless you hold all the political power cards that’s what happens in Professional Boxing... Amateur Boxing as well.

[Kalan]

That facts support me... Vitali WASN'T preparing for a World Heavyweight Championship Fight for months like Lewis was... Vitali had 2 weeks to prepare... Lewis WAS preparing for a World Heavyweight Championship Fight for months... ALL the cuts happenend in 5 seconds of furious fouling... A thumb strike to Vitali's left eyelid... followed by a holding and hitting palm slash on the same eyelid and cheek... This was followed by more egregious fouls later in the fight that worsened the cuts... You are simply blind, deaf, and dumb when it comes to admitting this... and you make excuses for Lewis because he was LOSING the fight on ALL scorecards.

[Controversial]

That facts support me... Vitali WASN'T preparing for a World Heavyweight Championship Fight for months like Lewis was... Vitali had 2 weeks to prepare... Lewis WAS preparing for a World Heavyweight Championship Fight for months...

Wrong. In late 2002 Klitschko's promotor announced Klit and Lewis would fight in April 2003. It was meant to be on April 12th. That fight fell through because Lewis was contractually obliged to give Tyson a rematch. Tyson then walked away from the rematch.

So Klitschko would've been preparing for Lewis, there's no question about that. Klit was never out of shape, he wasn't that type of fighter. In contrast Lewis was out of shape, he hadn't fought for a year and was the heaviest he had ever weighed, he even said after the fight that he would come in lighter if they fought again.

The Boswell fight was announced at least 5 weeks before him and Klit were due to fight so I'm not sure where your getting Klit had two weeks to prepare from? Johnson was announced about 8 weeks before the Lewis fight. Johnson pulled out injured two weeks before fight night which was why Klit took his place. So in that sense Lewis and Klit both had two weeks notice to prepare for each others size and style. Therefore saying Klit only had two weeks preparation in total is nonsense.

[jbizzle20]

That facts support me... Vitali WASN'T preparing for a World Heavyweight Championship Fight for months like Lewis was... Vitali had 2 weeks to prepare... Lewis WAS preparing for a World Heavyweight Championship Fight for months... ALL the cuts happenend in 5 seconds of furious fouling... A thumb strike to Vitali's left eyelid... followed by a holding and hitting palm slash on the same eyelid and cheek... This was followed by more egregious fouls later in the fight that worsened the cuts... You are simply blind, deaf, and dumb when it comes to admitting this... and you make excuses for Lewis because he was LOSING the fight on ALL scorecards.

Then cite some evidence, sources. Holyfield-Lewis was a judging controversy, this wasn't. I'm not arguing whether Lewis was out-boxed. However, like Lewis-Rahman I proved, decisions aren't the only way to win. Here is the punch that started the cut on Vitali's left cheek. See how the momentum of Lewis' fist, landing on the knuckles and going from Lewis' right to left, carries across Vitali's face. Not illegal.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-11-2015/hsbQ0_.gif

[jbizzle20]

Lewis would've been 38 in the rematch, he was coming to the end of his career and had been fighting at a world level for more years than Klit had been a pro. Klit was younger, on his way up and always in shape, he was preparing to fight Lewis later in the year anyway. The challenger is invariably the hungrier or more dangerous opponent and sometimes these guys pull a great performance out the bag, for e.g Buster Douglas. He gave Lewis a tough fight but it wasn't good enough. It speaks volumes of Lewis' quality that he toughed it out and stopped Klit.

Absolutely! Legendary fighters can work their way out of danger.

[jbizzle20]

Spot on past vitali being an Atg. His resume is toilet paper.

I won't argue that his quality of opposition wasn't that great, except for Lewis. I'm basing it on a more subjective approach, namely his fighting style. His jab was nasty and opponents just couldn't get inside on him. His chin was hardcore. Lewis proved that. Vitali should've been knocked out by that epic uppercut near the end.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Spot on past vitali being an Atg. His resume is toilet paper.

I won't argue that his quality of opposition wasn't that great, except for Lewis. I'm basing it on a more subjective approach, namely his fighting style. His jab was nasty and opponents just couldn't get inside on him. His chin was hardcore. Lewis proved that. Vitali should've been knocked out by that epic uppercut near the end.

I find that to be more speculation than subjective. The two best fighters he faced beat him. He has no wins of note and while he certainly passes the eye test, anybody that rates fighters historically on their own predictions is doing it wrong. Two things going against him are his limited power and punch variety. Watch the Kevin Johnson fight, a fat dude laying on the ropes and Vitali can barely touch him. He has certainly proven to be superior to the Manuel Charr's of history. Gotta give him that. His resume is inferior to Byrd, Ruiz and Rahman. So ATG? Not even close.

[jbizzle20]

Spot on past vitali being an Atg. His resume is toilet paper.

I won't argue that his quality of opposition wasn't that great, except for Lewis. I'm basing it on a more subjective approach, namely his fighting style. His jab was nasty and opponents just couldn't get inside on him. His chin was hardcore. Lewis proved that. Vitali should've been knocked out by that epic uppercut near the end.

I find that to be more speculation than subjective. The two best fighters he faced beat him. He has no wins of note and while he certainly passes the eye test, anybody that rates fighters historically on their own predictions is doing it wrong. Two things going against him are his limited power and punch variety. Watch the Kevin Johnson fight, a fat dude laying on the ropes and Vitali can barely touch him. He has certainly proven to be superior to the Manuel Charr's of history. Gotta give him that. His resume is inferior to Byrd, Ruiz and Rahman. So ATG? Not even close.

I probably know your answer but doesn't the 87% KO percentage count for something? Byrd only won because of an injury that had nothing to do with Byrd's punches.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

ko% is an absurd way to rate anything. Byrd won, not saying he whipped him. Just a fact that vitali lost his two biggest fights.

[Kalan]

Spot on past vitali being an Atg. His resume is toilet paper.

I won't argue that his quality of opposition wasn't that great, except for Lewis. I'm basing it on a more subjective approach, namely his fighting style. His jab was nasty and opponents just couldn't get inside on him. His chin was hardcore. Lewis proved that. Vitali should've been knocked out by that epic uppercut near the end.

I find that to be more speculation than subjective. The two best fighters he faced beat him. He has no wins of note and while he certainly passes the eye test, anybody that rates fighters historically on their own predictions is doing it wrong. Two things going against him are his limited power and punch variety. Watch the Kevin Johnson fight, a fat dude laying on the ropes and Vitali can barely touch him. He has certainly proven to be superior to the Manuel Charr's of history. Gotta give him that. His resume is inferior to Byrd, Ruiz and Rahman. So ATG? Not even close.

SaadOff is used toilet paper that's full of Bullcrap.. Vitali fought tremendous opponents and was never out-boxed or out-punched. He was never or behind on points or floored by an opponent... Here's 13 of the better opponents who Vitali easily outboxed.

Kirk Johnson had only one loss in 36 fights, and that was by DQ ... Danny Williams knocked out Mike Tyson in his previous fight, and was in the best form of his career... Larry Donald was only stopped once in his career, by Vitali Klitschko .. Juan Carlos Gomez was 44-1 ... Tomasz Adamek was 43-1 and a 2-Division World Champion. VK was the first fighter to stop Adamek ... Herbie Hide was a 31-1 World Heavyweight Champion when he was flattened in 2 rounds. Hide outboxed Bowe for 3 rounds ... Sam Peter was 30-1 and knocked out Oleg Maskaevwho knocked out Hasim Rahman twice; and obviously Rahman leveled Lewis with one shot ... Timo Hoffman was 22-0 ... Chris Arreola was 28-0 ... Kevin Johnson was undefeated in 23 fights ... Corrie Sanders was a dangerous southpaw puncher and 39-2 ... Ed Mahone was undefeated in 23 fights... Vitali was beating Chris Byrd by a mile in their fight. He only lost because his rotator cuff was completely severed in a freak injury. VK had problems with the shoulder in training camp and it came apart in the fight... Vitali was beating Lewis on all scorecards at the end of their fight. He only lost because of foul induced cuts, and would have smashed Lewis right through the canvas in a rematch.

[man]

The two best fighters he faced beat him.

byrd won the fight, but didn't beat
vitali. you can make a point that
vitali could or should have continued
despite the injury, but you cannot
imply byrd was the better fighter.

[hhaehre]

SaadOff is used toilet paper that's full of Bullcrap.. Vitali fought tremendous opponents and was never out-boxed or out-punched. He was never or behind on points or floored by an opponent... Here's 13 of the better opponents who Vitali easily outboxed.

Kirk Johnson had only one loss in 36 fights, and that was by DQ ... Danny Williams knocked out Mike Tyson in his previous fight, and was in the best form of his career... Larry Donald was only stopped once in his career, by Vitali Klitschko .. Juan Carlos Gomez was 44-1 ... Tomasz Adamek was 43-1 and a 2-Division World Champion. VK was the first fighter to stop Adamek ... Herbie Hide was a 31-1 World Heavyweight Champion when he was flattened in 2 rounds. Hide outboxed Bowe for 3 rounds ... Sam Peter was 30-1 and knocked out Oleg Maskaevwho knocked out Hasim Rahman twice; and obviously Rahman leveled Lewis with one shot ... Timo Hoffman was 22-0 ... Chris Arreola was 28-0 ... Kevin Johnson was undefeated in 23 fights ... Corrie Sanders was a dangerous southpaw puncher and 39-2 ... Ed Mahone was undefeated in 23 fights... Vitali was beating Chris Byrd by a mile in their fight. He only lost because his rotator cuff was completely severed in a freak injury. VK had problems with the shoulder in training camp and it came apart in the fight... Vitali was beating Lewis on all scorecards at the end of their fight. He only lost because of foul induced cuts, and would have smashed Lewis right through the canvas in a rematch.

Nevertheless Vitali DID lose to Lewis and Byrd and they WERE the two best and most successful fighters he faced. Somehow you will simply have to live with that. Why not take comfort in the unbeaten boxing record of Wilt Chamberlain and forget that he barely made half of his free throws?