Marciano vs. Ellis

[oogiebe]

Some guys fight challenging competition, get beat down, and don't peak later because if it.
[/quote]

Ahhh...I made some space. So, you mean like Big John Tate?

[Kalan]

Or maybe they get rich, fat, lazy, don't train that well, and get their asses kicked in because of it.

Ali or Frazier anybody? .... Tate met a tireless trainer and swinger. That's why he went out... BOOM!! SPLAT!!

[oogiebe]

Or maybe they get rich, fat, lazy, don't train that well, and get their asses kicked in because of it.

Ali or Frazier anybody? .... Tate met a tireless trainer and swinger. That's why he went out... BOOM!! SPLAT!!

It truly was boom, splat! LMFAO! That was hysterical! I pictured it just like that!!!!

[MrGuy]

Or maybe they get rich, fat, lazy, don't train that well, and get their asses kicked in because of it.

Ali or Frazier anybody? .... Tate met a tireless trainer and swinger. That's why he went out... BOOM!! SPLAT!!

They peaked earlier and fought real competition.

[MrGuy]

Some guys fight challenging competition, get beat down, and don't peak later because if it.

Ahhh...I made some space. So, you mean like Big John Tate?
[/quote]
Space? Referring to Ali.

[oogiebe]

Some guys fight challenging competition, get beat down, and don't peak later because if it.

Ahhh...I made some space. So, you mean like Big John Tate?

Space? Referring to Ali.
[/quote]

No, actually space to type...replies were getting long, that's all. And I agree, Ali was the greatest.

[MrGuy]

Some guys fight challenging competition, get beat down, and don't peak later because if it.

Ahhh...I made some space. So, you mean like Big John Tate?

Space? Referring to Ali.

No, actually space to type...replies were getting long, that's all. And I agree, Ali was the greatest.
[/quote]

[Kalan]

NOBODY who got beaten to trash was the greatest boxer.

Lomachenko is the greatest... He doesn't get hammered with jaw shattering shots to the head.

Eder Jofre is a good choice for old timers... He fought til 40... I don't remember seeing him dumped on his can in 78 fights... If he did it may have been a flash knockdown... People didn't drill his chin or knock tamales out of him he never ate.

[MrGuy]

NOBODY who got beaten to trash was the greatest boxer.

Lomachenko is the greatest... He doesn't get hammered with jaw shattering shots to the head.

Eder Jofre is a good choice for old timers... He fought til 40... I don't remember seeing him dumped on his can in 78 fights... If he did it may have been a flash knockdown... People didn't drill his chin or knock tamales out of him he never ate.

How many fighters the caliber of Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Liston, and Lyle has he fought?

[oogiebe]

Just so it's not overlooked. Eder Jofre was incredibly skilled. He could do it all. Outbox you; outpunch you; out street you; out everything. He stayed a bit too long at BW and had the only losses of his career against (had to look him up)Fighting Harada (no one to sneeze at) in two really close fights (classics). A really true ATG. Did I say he was good? Ok...good.

[Kalan]

NOBODY who got beaten to trash was the greatest boxer.

Lomachenko is the greatest... He doesn't get hammered with jaw shattering shots to the head.

Eder Jofre is a good choice for old timers... He fought til 40... I don't remember seeing him dumped on his can in 78 fights... If he did it may have been a flash knockdown... People didn't drill his chin or knock tamales out of him he never ate.

How many fighters the caliber of Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Liston, and Lyle has he fought?

Many... Fight Harada... Vicente Saldivar... Jose Legra... and a youthful Bernardo Caraballo who was undefeated in 40 fights... Caraballo fell way off after that... That sometimes happens.

[oogiebe]

I tend to not put active fighters in ATG lists. Too much left in career. WE used to have a thread on who were you wrong about. Lemo is certainly a great fighter, but it takes an entire career to assess ATG status. Can I say Lemo is heading there? Of course I do. Just not yet. Say what you want, but I remember a lot of fighters who ended up not to be ATG's. Just saying. Conservative boxing opinion.

[MrGuy]

NOBODY who got beaten to trash was the greatest boxer.

Lomachenko is the greatest... He doesn't get hammered with jaw shattering shots to the head.

Eder Jofre is a good choice for old timers... He fought til 40... I don't remember seeing him dumped on his can in 78 fights... If he did it may have been a flash knockdown... People didn't drill his chin or knock tamales out of him he never ate.

How many fighters the caliber of Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Liston, and Lyle has he fought?

Many... Fight Harada... Vicente Saldivar... Jose Legra... and a youthful Bernardo Caraballo who was undefeated in 40 fights... Caraballo fell way off after that... That sometimes happens.

I was talking about Lomanchenko. Didn't your current greatest lose o a guy that had several losses?

[Kalan]

Nope.... Lomachenko easily outscored Salido with legal punches and was robbed blind... Salido didn't even attempt to make Featherweight so Lomachenko beat him on the scales as well.... Lomachenko's next fight (when he was supposedly 1-1 but in reality was 2-0) was an easy victory over the best Featherweight in the world Gary Russell, who was 23-0 and now is 28-1...

Since he became the quickest 2-Division World Champion and is looking for his 3rd Divisional World Championship when he faces Linares... He should easily kick his ass and then on to Mikey Garcia.

[Scypion]

As said before, maybe this thread should be Patterson vs, Ellis. The two big differences in their careers is that Patterson was a lineal heavyweight champion whereas Ellis was a WBA heavyweight champion, and Floyd Patterson is in the IBHOF. Jimmy Ellis is not.

Ellis did win a decision over Patterson in 1968, but most considered it to be a bad decision. Floyd Patterson could not beat Muhammad Ali or Sonny Liston. Jimmy Ellis could not beat Muhammad Ali or Joe Frazier. Truth be told, I doubt that Floyd could have beaten Joe Frazier and I don't think that Jimmy could have beaten a prime Sonny Liston. So, those are three fighters that neither Patterson or Ellis could beat.

Other than that, It appears that Jimmy Ellis could beat anyone that Floyd Patterson beat, and Patterson could beat anyone that Ellis beat. So, maybe jimmy Ellis should be in the IBHOF.

Not saying here that Ellis is better than Patterson, or even equal, but it doesn't look like he is very far below Floyd if he can beat all the same guys that Patterson did.

[Kalan]

They could both beat Marciano... Too fast and too skilled... Rocky never beat a prime Heavyweight who was any good.

[Scypion]

Jimmy Ellis had a very good amateur record. Not sure of the accuracy, but I read that Ellis won 59 and lost 7 amateur fights, including a win and a loss to Cassius Clay.

Jimmy might have been in the 1960 Olympics if not for one Wilbert McClure, who beat Ellis in the Olympic trials that year. McClure was an outstanding amateur boxer who in 1959 was named Outstanding Amateur Boxer in the U.S. In 1960, McClure won a Gold Medal in the Olympics.

Wilbert McClure was the National AAU champion in both 1959 and 1960. Wilbert also won a Gold Medal in the 1959 Pan American games. McClure was also an Intercity Golden Gloves champion in 1959 and Golden Gloves Tournament of Champions winner in both 1958 and 1959.

So, I have a feeling that Jimmy Ellis may have won a Gold Medal in the 1960 Olympics if Wilbert McClure was not in the same division (light middleweight). Seems to be the Jimmy Ellis story, being overshadowed by great boxers; Wilbert McClure as an amateur and Muhammad Ali as a pro.

[Scypion]

Jimmy Ellis was pretty fast. Outside of Ali and Patterson, he was as fast as anyone else during his prime years.

59 and 7 is a good amateur record, including a win over Cassius Clay. He was good enough to win an 8 man tournament to win the WBA heavyweight title. Could not beat Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, but how many, if any, could during the late 60's or early 70's. Nobody.

Beat Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena, Leotis Martin, George Chuvalo, Billy Daniels, Johnny Persol, Tony Doyle, Floyd Patterson (though disputed), Roberto Davila, Holly Mims, etc.

I was a big Floyd Patterson fan and was disappointed when he did not get the decision against Jimmy Ellis. However, I really believe that Ellis could beat anyone that Patterson beat. I also believe that Jimmy Ellis was as good or better than some of the boxers in the IBHOF.

[592788]

The Ellis that won the wba title was a very good heavyweight for the day. He was the equal or better of Charles and. Walcott. Definitely better then the versions that faced Marciano. People don’t understand Charles and Walcotts primes would have been prior to end of WW ll. Before that black fighters had very little chance to fight for a title. There was a color line for all but a very few. So they had to work day jobs and take fights on short notice and take dives. Had bad managers that knew they couldn’t make much money with them. After the war the whole country integrated and black fighters began to have opportunity and were brought along and developed to be champions. Joe Walcott wasn’t some strange being that had his prime when he was 37. He just hadn’t been allowed to have his real prime. Then by the late fifties you had a generation of blacks that were brought along well from early ages and the level went up higher. Marciano had he had to fight this group would not have been undefeated or maybe even champion. Machen Folley Liston Terrell C Williams Floyd Patterson. All better then versions of Charles and Walcott that fought Marciano. Ellis was a bit after that group and as good as them. He would have given Marciano a boxing lesson and maybe dropped him with the sneak right but cut him up and win tko in late round.
Sorry I love the guy and what an inspiration but the facts are what they are. Doesn’t mean he didn’t accomplish a great deal for someone with his abilities.

[marktaha]

I'm also of the opinion that Ellis would have carved up Marciano & stopped him somewhere around the 8th round.
Marciano was great for the particular time in which he reigned, but, as we know, that was a very limited era.

Marciano by KO in about 5.