Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Jul 2020, 18:43
I've provided proof (interview transcripts from people employed by the promoters from both teams), coupled with an admission from Manny that was caught on video.
I am only arguing that Pacquiao rejected a career-high payday, because he didn't want to be tested, which resulted in him ducking Floyd Mayweather Jr. in 2010, despite the financials, the venue and the fight-date already agreed by both sides.
So why don't you be honest and stick to challenging my main point?
I guess it's because you can't?
Are you looking to employ red herrings, diversionary tactics intended to change the topic, in order to avoid discussing an inconvenient real-world truth that you find impossible to refute?
Are you that desperate to prevent people from being informed about Manny's embarrassing ducking of Floyd Mayweather Jr. in 2010?
Come on kid, do better!
This is so damn funny!
You're a very strange one aren't you?
You appear to think by referring to anyone who challenges you as 'a kid' that it somehow puts you in a position of superiority. It does the opposite, it shows up your obvious insecurity. However, as you wish to assume the status of others, i'll do the same to you.
Hi little girl
On the previous page your words were "Pacquiao ducked Mayweather Jr. during 2010, because he was a dirty drug cheat".
You then went on to challenge one and all to prove you wrong with anything you've written.
I've just pointed out that, all your videos and research and additional waffle has not actually provided any absolute concrete proof that Manny Pac was "a dirty drug cheat".
You've merely provided evidence that he refused a drugs test. There's nothing that actually shows him guilty of using drugs. You've just filled in the blanks yourself. Conjecture and speculation, as i've already pointed out.
Now over to you, little girl. Please provide the exact piece of concrete evidence to back up your claim that, without any doubt whatsoever, Manny Pac was "a dirty drugs cheat".
Oh, this is so much fun!
That’s a lot of words, intended to undermine minutae rather than my main argument.
You’re hoping that finding one tiny flaw, or highlighting something minor, will undermine my credibility and consequently my entire argument.
But your tactics will fail, because I’ve claimed at least twenty times in this thread that Pacquiao ducked Mayweather in 2010, because he was too damn scared to take the test!
No one can prove Pacquiao’s guilt of using PED’s because he has regularly refuses to be tested.
In fact, he even refused to provide his medical records during a lawsuit to prove he hadn’t used PED’s when he sued Mayweather.
He clearly has something to hide, but no one knows what that “something” is.
Regardless, Pacquiao ducked Mayweather Jr. in 2010, because he refused to take the damn test!
That is my entire argument!
Manny ducked Mayweather!
It happened. No human being can possibly claim otherwise.
I’m not willing to change the topic and discuss something else,
I will only defend the real-world facts relating to Pacquiao ducking Mayweather.
Hi my little petal. No luck with the searching? Nevermind.
Those are a damn lot of words to basically say "No, sorry, I do not have any concrete evidence whatsover to back up my claim that Manny Pac was a dirty drugs cheat".
I think you'll find it's somewhat impossible for me to be the one changing the topic when it's your words that are being quoted.
Why no more emojis? You not having fun anymore?
I am!
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 12 Jul 2020, 20:29
by The Gratest
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑12 Jul 2020, 20:24
i wonder if Manny went in the booty or the biceps
Da booty whilst borrowing Oscar's fishnets.
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 12 Jul 2020, 20:29
by margaret thatcher
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 12 Jul 2020, 20:31
by The Gratest
Ssshhh, it's a trap to set him off on a google search using that criteria
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
I don't think regardless of what ever proof you have i refused to believe that a guy ducked someone only later to fight them in any case. It defeats the definition of ducking.
Pacquiao ducked Mayweather Jr. during 2010, because he was a dirty drug cheat
oh , no! manny the dirty cheat, i can no longer be a fan of the fraud
You can be a fan of whomever you like, but no one can pretend that Pacquiao didn’t duck Mayweather in 2010.
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 12 Jul 2020, 20:36
by margaret thatcher
Oh sure, but Manny a dirty drug cheat? Omg that just stings bruh , stings like a needle up the butt
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 12 Jul 2020, 20:37
by The Gratest
Oi! Leave Maggie alone and get back to finding that evidence!
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Pacquiao ducked Mayweather Jr. during 2010, because he was a dirty drug cheat
oh , no! manny the dirty cheat, i can no longer be a fan of the fraud
You can be a fan of whomever you like, but no one can pretend that Pacquiao didn’t duck Mayweather in 2010.
Didn't appear to me that either of them were too eager to work with each other at the time. I can imagine Bob Arum in particular wasn't keen on matching his Cash Cow against a guy he used to promote who had left him, and become a much bigger star.
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
oh , no! manny the dirty cheat, i can no longer be a fan of the fraud
You can be a fan of whomever you like, but no one can pretend that Pacquiao didn’t duck Mayweather in 2010.
Didn't appear to me that either of them were too eager to work with each other at the time. I can imagine Bob Arum in particular wasn't keen on matching his Cash Cow against a guy he used to promote who had left him, and become a much bigger star.
The only stumbling block for that fight was Pacquiao refusing to take the damn test!
Even Todd Duboef and Bob Arum confirmed it. Everything else had been agreed.
According to Bob Arum, at the time, he considered Floyd's request for Manny to undergo Olympic style random unannounced drug testing, administered by USADA, adhering to the WADA code, as "harassment".
I previously quoted Arum actually saying this, as per him being interviewed by ESPN.
I even posted a video of Manny bitterly complaining about Floyd's so-called "unreasonable" demands.
So we can't judge things according to how we prefer the world to be, instead, we have to formulate an opinion based on real-world historical facts.
Because doing otherwise is utterly moronic, don't you agree?
Floyd wanted the fight in 2010, but Manny didn't.
And to be honest, I can't even believe this is considered something to be debated, because what I described actually happened. It was heavily documented. Nothing is open to interpretation.
That's the reason why I'm having so much fun with this discussion because people are apparently living in denial about something confirmed by both sides of the proverbial fence.
I might post more videos of Team Pacquiao complaining about the drug testing terms, such as Freddie Roach's flip-flopping stance on the issue, whereby one minute he's all for it, but the next he bitterly complains about it.
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 13 Jul 2020, 01:18
by oogiebe
Someone's about to implode.
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 13 Jul 2020, 02:40
by Enlightened-One
An ESPN video from late 2009 or early 2010:
Dan Rafael (ESPN): “You talk about how he [Mayweather] agreed to go to fourteen days…
“Ever since they started negotiating this fight, one of the points Mayweather wanted from day one.
“They wanted, on the Mayweather side, he wanted rigorous drug testing from day one. Not just recently,
“So that has been on the table for a long time.”
From the same video:
Brian Kenny (ESPN): “How concerned is Manny about people saying ‘Hey, why won’t he do all this different blood testing?
“Is he hiding something? Is he juicing? How concerned is Manny about that?”
Freddie Roach (Manny Pacquiao’s long-term trainer): “I don’t think we’re too concerned about that,
“Some people are going to say that, of course, the thing is…
“Everyone acts differently about taking blood.
“And [Pacquiao] just doesn’t feel right for about three days…”
Brian Kenny (ESPN): “But Floyd is also not asking Pacquiao to do anything that he is unwilling to do.
“So I think most people see both points, they’re wondering ‘Hey, is Pacquiao doing something dirty?’ and yet other people are saying ‘Is Floyd actually reticent to fight this guy?’
Teddy Atlas (ESPN): “To me, you know you just go to the man in the street.
“You go to the regular person, the blue-collar worker that takes care of his family… those are the people that count,
“And if you ask those people, well they’re going to say one thing, and they have said, one thing as far as I’ve heard,
“And that is, ‘why would you walk away from $30m on the table, just not to take some blood, just not to take a test?’
“If you’re clean, then what do you have to hide?”
Brian Kenny (ESPN): “Floyd Mayweather said, fourteen days before the fight to the fight, you wouldn’t get tested that day of the fight.
“But a full two weeks before, you couldn’t be tested.
“What about fifteen days before the fight? Would that still bother you?”
Manny Pacquiao: “Fifteen days before the fight I’m in heavy training,
“You know it’s going to be big [disturbance] to my heavy training at that time.
“It’s not good to have blood testing on that date, because fifteen days before the fight it’s going to be heavy training.”
Here's an extract of an ESPN article published 23rd December 2009, which nobody from this forum appears to remember... or they choose not to:
Schaefer said he and Todd duBoef had "worked out all other issues related to the fight," disclosing to ESPN.com that the fight would be at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, if they can work out the drug testing issue.
"We have agreed on all terms, including the site," Schaefer said.
"Todd told me that Pacquiao has difficulty with taking blood and doesn't want to do it so close to the fight," Richard Schaefer said. "He, Pacquiao, would only agree to have blood drawn before the kick-off press conference and after the fight."
"We're going in a different direction," Bob Arum told the Grand Rapids newspaper. "What I believe is that Floyd never really wanted the fight and this is just harassment of Pacquiao.
"We appeased Mayweather by agreeing to a urine analysis at any time, and blood testing before the press conference and after the fight. Mayweather pressed for blood testing even up to the weigh-in. He knew that Manny gets freaked out when his blood gets taken, and feels that it weakens him. This is just harassment and, to me, just signaled that he didn't want the fight."
Here's the video from 2014 that contains the following interview transcript:
Gareth A Davies (Journalist: The Telegraph): “Would you think that in the fullness of time, when people look back in history, they will see that Pacquiao is the man that Mayweather didn’t fight rather than Pacquiao didn’t get the Mayweather fight?
Freddie Roach (Manny Pacquiao’s long-time trainer): “I don’t think it’ll come across that way,
“I think people will say ‘why didn’t they fight each other?’ and blame both guys, to be honest with you,
“Because the first negotiations [in 2009], we were against the blood test. It was kind of our fault, the first time it didn’t work.”
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 13 Jul 2020, 05:49
by lazboy
Another EO argument...all I can say is Good! Great! Grand! Wonderful!
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Jul 2020, 20:35
You can be a fan of whomever you like, but no one can pretend that Pacquiao didn’t duck Mayweather in 2010.
Didn't appear to me that either of them were too eager to work with each other at the time. I can imagine Bob Arum in particular wasn't keen on matching his Cash Cow against a guy he used to promote who had left him, and become a much bigger star.
The only stumbling block for that fight was Pacquiao refusing to take the damn test!
Even Todd Duboef and Bob Arum confirmed it. Everything else had been agreed.
According to Bob Arum, at the time, he considered Floyd's request for Manny to undergo Olympic style random unannounced drug testing, administered by USADA, adhering to the WADA code, as "harassment".
I previously quoted Arum actually saying this, as per him being interviewed by ESPN.
I even posted a video of Manny bitterly complaining about Floyd's so-called "unreasonable" demands.
So we can't judge things according to how we prefer the world to be, instead, we have to formulate an opinion based on real-world historical facts.
Because doing otherwise is utterly moronic, don't you agree?
Floyd wanted the fight in 2010, but Manny didn't.
And to be honest, I can't even believe this is considered something to be debated, because what I described actually happened. It was heavily documented. Nothing is open to interpretation.
That's the reason why I'm having so much fun with this discussion because people are apparently living in denial about something confirmed by both sides of the proverbial fence.
I might post more videos of Team Pacquiao complaining about the drug testing terms, such as Freddie Roach's flip-flopping stance on the issue, whereby one minute he's all for it, but the next he bitterly complains about it.
So, still no actual concrete evidence to back up your claim that Pac "was a dirty drug cheat".
Still just speculation and filling in the gaps.
Well I enjoy a challenge, accepted yours, but that one was just too damn easy. You need to up your game for next time kid, after all the bluster that was very disappointing. Very.
It was fun though!
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 13 Jul 2020, 07:11
by Enlightened-One
The Gratest wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 06:33So, still no actual concrete evidence to back up your claim that Pac "was a dirty drug cheat".
Still just speculation and filling in the gaps.
Well I enjoy a challenge, accepted yours, but that one was just too damn easy. You need to up your game for next time kid, after all the bluster that was very disappointing. Very.
It was fun though!
I think you're just trying to wind me up, aren't you?
My main point, which I've conveyed at least twenty times in this thread, was that Manny ducked Floyd in 2010.
I also already elaborated on my thoughts about Manny being a drug cheat. Pay attention.
And for the record, Manny ducked Floyd.
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
The Gratest wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 06:33So, still no actual concrete evidence to back up your claim that Pac "was a dirty drug cheat".
Still just speculation and filling in the gaps.
Well I enjoy a challenge, accepted yours, but that one was just too damn easy. You need to up your game for next time kid, after all the bluster that was very disappointing. Very.
It was fun though!
I think you're just trying to wind me up, aren't you?
My main point, which I've conveyed at least twenty times in this thread, was that Manny ducked Floyd in 2010.
I also already elaborated on my thoughts about Manny being a drug cheat. Pay attention.
And for the record, Manny ducked Floyd.
I think you're trying to avoid admitting that you do not actually have any concrete evidence to back up your claim that Pac "was a dirty drug cheat" aren't you?
You haven't provided that yet, so pay attention and do please stop repeating yourself.
If your way of conceding is by then accusing me of attempting to wind you up then you've a lot to learn kid. Humility being one aspect.
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
The difference is Pac could care less if you rate Leonard over him. He'll be happy where he's at. Floyd gets all agitated when ATGs are listed above him pointing to his record. He's an ATG for sure and earned his position, but his insecurity is irritating and very woman diva like.
He might not be rated or better than Leonard but point even women diva-ish is a reasonable how can someone lose to a lightweight a be better than him. Though I do not agree with him I can see from a perspective of an ATG who never loss his diva-ish ways allows him the reasonable thought as wrong as we think he might be.
Duran wasn't a lightweight when he fought Leonard though. He was 2 years and 8 fights at welterweight. He had more fights at welterweight than Maidana did when he fought Floyd. So was Maidana, a fringe contender who gave Floyd all he could handle, a blown up lightweight?
Maidana wasn't a fringe contender was he a world champ? Duran lost to lesser guys than Maidana maybe not welterweight so I don't think we want to debate possible losses. Duran wins is what helps make him great you might want to stick to wins rather than loses. Both him and Floyd could be considered blown up lightweights. The point you miss he didn't lose to won Leonard did. His point is still valid even though he still not better than Leonard.
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 13 Jul 2020, 08:34
by Enlightened-One
The Gratest wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 07:39
I think you're trying to avoid admitting that you do not actually have any concrete evidence to back up your claim that Pac "was a dirty drug cheat" aren't you?
You haven't provided that yet, so pay attention and do please stop repeating yourself.
If your way of conceding is by then accusing me of attempting to wind you up then you've a lot to learn kid. Humility being one aspect.
You're just trying to change the topic, to divert attention away from the fact that I've always maintained that Manny ducked Floyd in 2010.
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
The Gratest wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 07:39
I think you're trying to avoid admitting that you do not actually have any concrete evidence to back up your claim that Pac "was a dirty drug cheat" aren't you?
You haven't provided that yet, so pay attention and do please stop repeating yourself.
If your way of conceding is by then accusing me of attempting to wind you up then you've a lot to learn kid. Humility being one aspect.
You're just trying to change the topic, to divert attention away from the fact that I've always maintained that Manny ducked Floyd in 2010.
These are your words yes?
"Pacquiao ducked Mayweather Jr. during 2010, because he was a dirty drug cheat"
You then threw out a challenge that everything you had posted was correct with no factual errors.
I've challenged that part, the "dirty drug cheat", I have not done any diverting whatsoever.
Rather, it would appear that you cannot answer my challenge and probably now regret stating that Pac was factually "a dirty drug cheat".
I'm still waiting kid. If you don't have the evidence then just say so, it's that simple.
Fun, fun, fuuuuun!
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 13 Jul 2020, 09:12
by Enlightened-One
The Gratest wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 08:49These are your words yes?
"Pacquiao ducked Mayweather Jr. during 2010, because he was a dirty drug cheat"
You then threw out a challenge that everything you had posted was correct with no factual errors.
I've challenged that part, the "dirty drug cheat", I have not done any diverting whatsoever.
Rather, it would appear that you cannot answer my challenge and probably now regret stating that Pac was factually "a dirty drug cheat".
I'm still waiting kid. If you don't have the evidence then just say so, it's that simple.
Fun, fun, fuuuuun!
I only challenged people to disprove my belief that Manny ducked Floyd in 2010.
Quote my words if you believe otherwise. You won't, but it'll be funny to see you try.
In the meantime, I'll repost the same response you've previously received from myself multiple times:
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑12 Jul 2020, 20:11You’re hoping that finding one tiny flaw, or highlighting something minor, will undermine my credibility and consequently my entire argument.
But your tactics will fail, because I’ve claimed at least twenty times in this thread that Pacquiao ducked Mayweather in 2010, because he was too damn scared to take the test!
No one can prove Pacquiao’s guilt of using PED’s because he has regularly refuses to be tested.
In fact, he even refused to provide his medical records during a lawsuit to prove he hadn’t used PED’s when he sued Mayweather.
He clearly has something to hide, but no one knows what that “something” is.
Regardless, Pacquiao ducked Mayweather Jr. in 2010, because he refused to take the damn test!
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 13 Jul 2020, 09:27
by The Gratest
There you go again, trying to hide behind long repetitive posts whilst not proving any actual factual evidence to back up your claim. Are you a politician by any chance?
Here are your actual words:
"They refuse to acknowledge well-documented historical real-world facts"
Kid, it has never actually been a well-documented historical real-world fact that Manny Pac is "dirty drug cheat".
There have been plenty of allegations, however it has never been proven to be a actual fact. You do understand the difference yeah?
You do also understand the definitions of these words:
Conjecture
Speculation
It has become painfully clear that you do not have any actual evidence to turn your allegations into a fact, no matter how many long winded, repetitive posts you do.
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 13 Jul 2020, 09:30
by The Gratest
I'll make this simple for you. Please answer the following question:
1) Is it a proven fact that Manny Pac is "dirty drug cheat"?
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
Posted: 13 Jul 2020, 09:32
by Enlightened-One
The Gratest wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 09:27
There you go again, trying to hide behind long repetitive posts whilst not proving any actual factual evidence to back up your claim. Are you a politician by any chance?
Here are your actual words:
"They refuse to acknowledge well-documented historical real-world facts"
Kid, it has never actually been a well-documented historical real-world fact that Manny Pac is "dirty drug cheat".
There have been plenty of allegations, however it has never been proven to be a actual fact. You do understand the difference yeah?
You do also understand the definitions of these words:
Conjecture
Speculation
It has become painfully clear that you do not have any actual evidence to turn your allegations into a fact, no matter how many long winded, repetitive posts you do.
You lied by claiming that I'd issued a challenge to everyone where I claimed that everything I wrote contained no factual errors.
I never said this. And you can't quote my words saying this either, because if you could, you would have done so by now.
Instead, I did say that no one can disprove my claim about Manny Pacquiao ducking Floyd Mayweather Jr. in 2010.
If you want to create a separate thread, asking people to explain the reason why there’s an undeniable atmosphere of speculation about Manny Pacquiao’s use of PED’s, then please feel free.
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
The Gratest wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 09:27
There you go again, trying to hide behind long repetitive posts whilst not proving any actual factual evidence to back up your claim. Are you a politician by any chance?
Here are your actual words:
"They refuse to acknowledge well-documented historical real-world facts"
Kid, it has never actually been a well-documented historical real-world fact that Manny Pac is "dirty drug cheat".
There have been plenty of allegations, however it has never been proven to be a actual fact. You do understand the difference yeah?
You do also understand the definitions of these words:
Conjecture
Speculation
It has become painfully clear that you do not have any actual evidence to turn your allegations into a fact, no matter how many long winded, repetitive posts you do.
You lied by claiming that I'd issued a challenge to everyone where I claimed that everything I wrote contained no factual errors.
I never said this. And you can't quote my words saying this either, because if you could, you would have done so by now.
Instead, I did say that no one can disprove my claim about Manny Pacquiao ducking Floyd Mayweather Jr. in 2010.
If you want to create a separate thread, asking people to explain the reason why there’s an undeniable atmosphere of speculation about Manny Pacquiao’s use of PED’s, then please feel free.
So you're finally admitting that everything you've written is not actual fact then. Jeeez, that took a while but we eventually got there.
You appear to be completely misunderstanding my question, whether deliberate or just trying to cover it all up with waffle.
I've never once challenged you stating that Manny ducked Floyd (please feel free to quote me) so you can stop the repetition on that.
My question has always been on your claim to be backing everything you've concluded on with unquestionable facts.
You issued the challenge on page 7:
"I really do hope someone is stupid enough to challenge me on this. "
Reading through the thread and all your claims that everything you've written are "well-documented historical real-world facts" I took this as being a challenge to prove you wrong on your use of facts. It's all linked.
So we've finally concluded that the basis of your reasoning, Manny Pac being a "dirty drug cheat" is not an actual fact, just your speculation. Phew! Ut would've been much easier if you'd just admitted this a lot earlier kid!
Re: Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights
He might not be rated or better than Leonard but point even women diva-ish is a reasonable how can someone lose to a lightweight a be better than him. Though I do not agree with him I can see from a perspective of an ATG who never loss his diva-ish ways allows him the reasonable thought as wrong as we think he might be.
Duran wasn't a lightweight when he fought Leonard though. He was 2 years and 8 fights at welterweight. He had more fights at welterweight than Maidana did when he fought Floyd. So was Maidana, a fringe contender who gave Floyd all he could handle, a blown up lightweight?
Maidana wasn't a fringe contender. He was a contender.
A contender with less fights at welterweight than Duran had.
