BoxRec

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

p4p1 wrote:

ts20743 wrote:Ali...Tyson wouldn't have any defense for Ali's jab...I think it would go pretty much like Tyson's fight with Lennox Lewis, Ali would control Tyson with his jab, and blitz him combinations...

joe kurtz wrote:While Tyson's first round blitz would've been dangerous for any heavyweight, in any era, beyond that he wouldn't have had a chance vs a prime Ali. Hell, even the Ali of the mid '70s would've taken him to school.

Seeing as how lower eschelon heavies of his day like "Quick" Tillis, Mitch Green, Bonecrusher & Tucker all extended & troubled him to varrying degrees, it's not at all difficult envisioning Ali totally beffudling & frustrating Tyson over serveral rounds until he either got exhausted & TKO'd ala the Douglas fight. Or he'd quit in his corner ala Liston.

bada$$ wrote: on the other hand... his problem is that ali played a good allaround game... he was great in the ring but he was the greatest outside of the ring... with tyson being so weak in the head... ali may have him beat before entering the ring

all reasons as to why ali would beat mike tyson

I think any version of Ali up to Manila handles Tyson...After Manila I'm not so sure...

yeh ali had stuff all left after manilla

I read Ali was hit four hundred times in The Thrilla...In his fight with Cleveland Williams he was hit three times in three rounds or something like that... I think The Thrilla is among the top three hw championship fights of all time for punches thrown and punches connected...The ironic thing is Ali thought Frazier was done...IMHO, that was the last best fight either one had in them and would have been a great end to a career...

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:I read Ali was hit four hundred times in The Thrilla...In his fight with Cleveland Williams he was hit three times in three rounds or something like that... I think The Thrilla is among the top three hw championship fights of all time for punches thrown and punches connected...The ironic thing is Ali thought Frazier was done...IMHO, that was the last best fight either one had in them and would have been a great end to a career...

yeh i agree with that, i have read that ali thought frazier was shot and after a couple rounds of the thrilla ali said to frazier" danm joe they told me you were finished" or something close to that

BTW i think alot of the time Tysons prime is overated

p4p1 wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:I read Ali was hit four hundred times in The Thrilla...In his fight with Cleveland Williams he was hit three times in three rounds or something like that... I think The Thrilla is among the top three hw championship fights of all time for punches thrown and punches connected...The ironic thing is Ali thought Frazier was done...IMHO, that was the last best fight either one had in them and would have been a great end to a career...

yeh i agree with that, i have read that ali thought frazier was shot and after a couple rounds of the thrilla ali said to frazier" danm joe they told me you were finished" or something close to that

And Joe said "they lied to you, pretty boy"

According To Pacheco , Ali thought he was done and was doing him a favor by giving him one more big pay day before he retired...

Back to Tyson he was a scary fighter in his prime...It's just that his prime ended at 24...I always wonder if it was because he was exposed by Douglas and Holyfield or that he wasn't that great in the first place...

Being beaten by pretty sound fighters does not make one exposed...

Tyson's prime is easily defined by many as pre-Douglas, but the
fact remains that he was a force and a fixture right up until 2002 !
heck even after that for many people.

His career was stained and wrapped around to many light posts
on his way to super stardom to really embrace him as a historical
'great' in the classical sense. But what he did in the ring on a good
night was magical and took tremendous talent, self belief, instinct
and attributes rarely found.

Ir-respective of what a Kevin Rooney or a Teddy Atlas whine about
after their Tyson thrill ride had ended.

Contray to popular mythology...Tyson did have some pretty good wins
post his loss to Douglas. Sure the pop and zest was no longer their
as it was in his 'hey day', he still put big talented men down and quick.

The whole BS that Tyson beat his opponents because they were
scared of him is romantic writers fiction....ever man he faced (Bruno
aside) were confident in their abilities and attributes as prize fighters.
Real fighters do not get that easily intimidated.

Robinson wrote:Being beaten by pretty sound fighters does not make one exposed...

Tyson's prime is easily defined by many as pre-Douglas, but the
fact remains that he was a force and a fixture right up until 2002 !
heck even after that for many people.

His career was stained and wrapped around to many light posts
on his way to super stardom to really embrace him as a historical
'great' in the classical sense. But what he did in the ring on a good
night was magical and took tremendous talent, self belief, instinct
and attributes rarely found.

Ir-respective of what a Kevin Rooney or a Teddy Atlas whine about
after their Tyson thrill ride had ended.

Contray to popular mythology...Tyson did have some pretty good wins
post his loss to Douglas. Sure the pop and zest was no longer their
as it was in his 'hey day', he still put big talented men down and quick.

The whole BS that Tyson beat his opponents because they were
scared of him is romantic writers fiction....ever man he faced (Bruno
aside) were confident in their abilities and attributes as prize fighters.
Real fighters do not get that easily intimidated.

No sane person would say Tyson wasn't a good boxer who at times could be spetacular...Just some of us take issue with the suugestion he was great ...

Fear is a primary emotion...If you see a man coming at you with a gun you become afraid...Any rational person experiences fear...It's how individuals respond to that fear that defines them...

remember while tyson was considered the best heavyweight or second best george foreman was top rated that has alot to do with the state of the division

Robinson wrote:The whole BS that Tyson beat his opponents because they were
scared of him is romantic writers fiction....ever man he faced (Bruno
aside) were confident in their abilities and attributes as prize fighters.
Real fighters do not get that easily intimidated.

I respectfully disagree -- I would say Bonecrusher, Tyrell Biggs, Larry Holmes, Micheal Spinks, Bruno, Henry Tillman and Alex Stewart were all visually scared, and it reflected in their performances.

overhand_right wrote:

Robinson wrote:The whole BS that Tyson beat his opponents because they were
scared of him is romantic writers fiction....ever man he faced (Bruno
aside) were confident in their abilities and attributes as prize fighters.
Real fighters do not get that easily intimidated.

I respectfully disagree -- I would say Bonecrusher, Tyrell Biggs, Larry Holmes, Micheal Spinks, Bruno, Henry Tillman and Alex Stewart were all visually scared, and it reflected in their performances.

Everything is subject to debate but folks who know the game say Michael Spinks was so intimidated he couldn't work up a sweat and you could see fear in Larry Holmes' eyes...

Of course the average boxer is braver than the average lay man...That's why he makes a living that involves the risk of getting your head knocked off...But they are not super humans invested with magical powers... Gary Willis nailed it..."Why can't some people just let fighters be fighters?"

Just to point out -- i'm not in any way criticising the aforementioned guys for being frightened before their fight, i was just disagreeing with the notion Tysons opponents weren't intimidated.

It is pretty frickin nervy being in a ring.

overhand_right wrote:Just to point out -- i'm not in any way criticising the aforementioned guys for being frightened before their fight, i was just disagreeing with the notion Tysons opponents weren't intimidated.

It is pretty frickin nervy being in a ring.

Tyson appeared to be crazy and seemed to revel in hurting people...If he could beat a boxer and hurt him in the process that would make him happier...I can see where even grizzled boxers would fear him...

I remember back in the eighties Joe and Marvis Frazier were on the Howard Stern Show ...It was a great interview...Howard is just funny...The interview took place while Mike Tyson was still invincible and undefeated...Howard asked Joe if he could beat Tyson...He said "Yeah, I'd hit him back" implying that Tyson's wins owed a lot to his opponents being intimidated by him... Gil Clancy amplifies on that theme:



ZL: This is a non sequitur, but I wanted to hear some of your thoughts on Mike Tyson. He’s going to be fighting again soon. Had he stayed the course, do you think he could’ve become one of the very best heavyweights of all time?

GC: Oh, absolutely, he had the potential. But even in the amateurs, when Teddy Atlas was taking care of him, if a guy would stand up to him and hit him with a couple of punches, he didn’t want to come out for the next round. Teddy would have to beg him, and push him, and everything else.


ZL: I didn’t know that. I knew that he’d get real scared before fights, but once he was in the ring, he was fine.

GC: No, no. If things didn’t go well, he wasn’t too good. He’s a bully. If he doesn’t bully you…that’s the way Holyfield beat him. Holyfield was one of the first guys to punch right back when he got hit. Tyson wasn’t used to that, and that’s what happened to him in both fights with Holyfield.

ZL: Of course Holyfield was just following Buster Douglas’ example, as he was the first guy to knock Tyson off his pedestal—and on his ass.

GC: I don’t know if you remember, but in that fight when Buster Douglas was coming down from his dressing room to the ring…I was watching it on TV with my wife and I said, ‘Nancy, this guy’s coming down to the ring dancing, like he’s got a lot of confidence in himself.’ Now, most of the guys who fought Tyson—like Alex Stewart was a disgrace, you know, guys like that…But this guy (Douglas) seemed like he was going to go and fight. Sure enough, he did.

ZL: Would a mentally and physically prime Tyson have struggled with a Lennox Lewis or Riddick Bowe?

GC: Yeah, absolutely. Guys who would hit him back.


http://www.fightbeat.com/judgejake/clancy.htm

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

Robinson wrote:Being beaten by pretty sound fighters does not make one exposed...

Tyson's prime is easily defined by many as pre-Douglas, but the
fact remains that he was a force and a fixture right up until 2002 !
heck even after that for many people.

His career was stained and wrapped around to many light posts
on his way to super stardom to really embrace him as a historical
'great' in the classical sense. But what he did in the ring on a good
night was magical and took tremendous talent, self belief, instinct
and attributes rarely found.

Ir-respective of what a Kevin Rooney or a Teddy Atlas whine about
after their Tyson thrill ride had ended.

Contray to popular mythology...Tyson did have some pretty good wins
post his loss to Douglas. Sure the pop and zest was no longer their
as it was in his 'hey day', he still put big talented men down and quick.

The whole BS that Tyson beat his opponents because they were
scared of him is romantic writers fiction....ever man he faced (Bruno
aside) were confident in their abilities and attributes as prize fighters.
Real fighters do not get that easily intimidated.

No sane person would say Tyson wasn't a good boxer who at times could be spetacular...Just some of us take issue with the suugestion he was great ...

Fear is a primary emotion...If you see a man coming at you with a gun you become afraid...Any rational person experiences fear...It's how individuals respond to that fear that defines them...

No one was coming at these guys with a gun.

They were professional fighters facing another one, albeit exceptional, that
does not mean that the were beaten by pure fear from the get go.

Do you honestly believe that all of those men were scared of Tyson
and that they never thought that they could beat him ?

overhand_right wrote:

Robinson wrote:The whole BS that Tyson beat his opponents because they were
scared of him is romantic writers fiction....ever man he faced (Bruno
aside) were confident in their abilities and attributes as prize fighters.
Real fighters do not get that easily intimidated.

I respectfully disagree -- I would say Bonecrusher, Tyrell Biggs, Larry Holmes, Micheal Spinks, Bruno, Henry Tillman and Alex Stewart were all visually scared, and it reflected in their performances.

Bonecrusher imo was not scared, just did not fight his gameplan.

Biggs maybe.

Spinks was in shock, but even then he came in good shape, i just think after the first (and only) Knockdown, Spinks knew he was not going to get up, since there could only be result.

Larry Holmes obviously relished the chance, i dont think he was scared. Someone of Holmes' personality was to prove Tyson was a Hype, nothing but a blind KO Artist, and any skillfull fighter can get a decision of him. Obviously Holmes was proved wrong in 4 rounds.

Bruno in the first fight seemed focused and prepared, and held his own respectfully in the early rounds. 2nd fight he was in shock, hence the immediate retirement.

Tillman was just outclassed. A Tyson that just lost to Douglas, who obviously not the boxer he was in the previous years, and had obviously forgotten what a jab was. Tyson was content on KO'ing his opponents within the first few rounds. Tillman obviously had no chance.

Alex Stewart was phased and pretty worried before the fight.

I agree that it is normal to be worried, maybe not afraid, but cautios, especially in the ring. Against Tyson, alot of the boxers were too cautious and were sooner or later caught by Tyson

observer1 wrote: Bonecrusher imo was not scared, just did not fight his gameplan.

Possibly. Not scared before the bell, quickly resorted to survival tactics after taking a few big shots in rd 1.

observer1 wrote: Spinks was in shock, but even then he came in good shape, i just think after the first (and only) Knockdown, Spinks knew he was not going to get up, since there could only be result.

Get your act together observer -- Spinks was down TWICE. First from a bodyshot, got up and came back swinging only to be countered and laid out flat with a big right hand for the full count.

observer1 wrote: Larry Holmes obviously relished the chance, i dont think he was scared. Someone of Holmes' personality was to prove Tyson was a Hype, nothing but a blind KO Artist, and any skillfull fighter can get a decision of him. Obviously Holmes was proved wrong in 4 rounds.

Bruno in the first fight seemed focused and prepared, and held his own respectfully in the early rounds. 2nd fight he was in shock, hence the immediate retirement.

Tillman was just outclassed. A Tyson that just lost to Douglas, who obviously not the boxer he was in the previous years, and had obviously forgotten what a jab was. Tyson was content on KO'ing his opponents within the first few rounds. Tillman obviously had no chance.

Alex Stewart was phased and pretty worried before the fight

Holmes in his book admits he didn't want to go down the aisle and fight Tyson, as for Bruno, Tillman and Stewart to me they obviously look scared and it hardley detratcs from Tysons legacy if they were, but its not realy worth debating.

I admire the guys like Tony Tucker and Douglas who stayed cool as ice and boxed well -- those fellas must have some huge frickin balls!

overhand_right wrote:

observer1 wrote: Bonecrusher imo was not scared, just did not fight his gameplan.

Possibly. Not scared before the bell, quickly resorted to survival tactics after taking a few big shots in rd 1.

observer1 wrote: Spinks was in shock, but even then he came in good shape, i just think after the first (and only) Knockdown, Spinks knew he was not going to get up, since there could only be result.

Get your act together observer -- Spinks was down TWICE. First from a bodyshot, got up and came back swinging only to be countered and laid out flat with a big right hand for the full count.

observer1 wrote: Larry Holmes obviously relished the chance, i dont think he was scared. Someone of Holmes' personality was to prove Tyson was a Hype, nothing but a blind KO Artist, and any skillfull fighter can get a decision of him. Obviously Holmes was proved wrong in 4 rounds.

Bruno in the first fight seemed focused and prepared, and held his own respectfully in the early rounds. 2nd fight he was in shock, hence the immediate retirement.

Tillman was just outclassed. A Tyson that just lost to Douglas, who obviously not the boxer he was in the previous years, and had obviously forgotten what a jab was. Tyson was content on KO'ing his opponents within the first few rounds. Tillman obviously had no chance.

Alex Stewart was phased and pretty worried before the fight

Holmes in his book admits he didn't want to go down the aisle and fight Tyson, as for Bruno, Tillman and Stewart to me they obviously look scared and it hardley detratcs from Tysons legacy if they were, but its not realy worth debating.

I admire the guys like Tony Tucker and Douglas who stayed cool as ice and boxed well -- those fellas must have some huge frickin balls!

Intresting.

I was under the impression Holmes would think he would easily out-class Tyson. Well you can't blame him.

I believe that fear and intimidation play a big part in the outcome of many fights. If that was not so, fighters wouldn't bother trying to psyche each other out.

This is not just limited to the Marciano's, Liston's, Foreman's, and Tyson's.

But note how easily you can form a long list of intimidating foes.