BoxRec

I know where you're coming from, that boxers today still incorporate the treaditional methods of training - sparring, bag work, speed bags (not sure when they were invented), skipping, etc. Some I'm sure revel in going it old school. But they still use modern stuff not available to your Marciano's and other fighters developing through the 1940's. Todays sports science and sophisticated weight training, bulking up and cutting weight, techniques do make a difference. Turn it on its head, if older was really better why aren't boxers not just turning their backs on PEDs, but modern high-protein diets, weights and the rest of it. Why can't you name a single successful pro boxer today who has decided to mimic the training Rocky Marciano did together with a 1940's diet?

polecateddy wrote:I know where you're coming from, that boxers today still incorporate the treaditional methods of training - sparring, bag work, speed bags (not sure when they were invented), skipping, etc. Some I'm sure revel in going it old school. But they still use modern stuff not available to your Marciano's and other fighters developing through the 1940's. Todays sports science and sophisticated weight training, bulking up and cutting weight, techniques do make a difference. Turn it on its head, if older was really better why aren't boxers not just turning their backs on PEDs, but modern high-protein diets, weights and the rest of it. Why can't you name a single successful pro boxer today who has decided to mimic the training Rocky Marciano did together with a 1940's diet?

I would say the vast majority of a boxers training, probably 99% hasn't changed, running, skipping, pads, sparring, bag work, speed bag, sprints etc... Yes there has been improvements in gaining mass and weight lifting, protein shakes but does that makes a fighter any fitter or better, I don't think so. As I asked before to suggest Marciano wasn't training right, or wasn't fit enough, you would need to show examples where he tired otherwise its a moot point.

Going back to your previous argument, why hasn't the shot put world record been beaten for 23 years then?

Controversial wrote:

polecateddy wrote:I know where you're coming from, that boxers today still incorporate the treaditional methods of training - sparring, bag work, speed bags (not sure when they were invented), skipping, etc. Some I'm sure revel in going it old school. But they still use modern stuff not available to your Marciano's and other fighters developing through the 1940's. Todays sports science and sophisticated weight training, bulking up and cutting weight, techniques do make a difference. Turn it on its head, if older was really better why aren't boxers not just turning their backs on PEDs, but modern high-protein diets, weights and the rest of it. Why can't you name a single successful pro boxer today who has decided to mimic the training Rocky Marciano did together with a 1940's diet?

I would say the vast majority of a boxers training, probably 99% hasn't changed, running, skipping, pads, sparring, bag work, speed bag, sprints etc... Yes there has been improvements in gaining mass and weight lifting, protein shakes but does that makes a fighter any fitter or better, I don't think so. As I asked before to suggest Marciano wasn't training right, or wasn't fit enough, you would need to show examples where he tired otherwise its a moot point.

Going back to your previous argument, why hasn't the shot put world record been beaten for 23 years then?

Steriods plain and simple. Both Randy Barnes and Ulf Timmerman systematically used steriod program's. In Ulf's case, state sponsored ones. Athletics isn't clean now, but in the power events it is somewhat better than it was in the 80s/90s.

And going off on a random tangent, transporting your 1950's Rocky into a cruiserweight fight could well potentially mean he would have to overcome a PED enhanced opponent, which I presume is something he never had to do in his day.

And come off it, you can't boil 70 years of sports science down to protein shakes and bulking up. I suspect there might be a bit more to it than that! Lol

PCT - your points still don't make sense. Let's break them down:

Modern nutrition makes fighters fitter - after all the evidence on this thread, you can't still be of the opinion that most (note the word 'most') modern heavies are fitter than Marciano? Which modern heavies could have lasted in the Thriller in Manila?

Marciano would be too small to hurt a modern 'big' heavyweight - David Haye hurt Valuev in the 12th round of their fight. Is this not proof that a small man can hurt a big man? What about Dempsey/Willard?

Modern boxers are more skillful - so you don't rate the skills of Muhammad Ali, whose prime was 40-odd years ago?

Athletes in other sports have improved so boxing must have too - this has been covered in depth in this thread but most modern athletes are full time/professional/paid/sponsored/supported in a way that older athletes never were. The same is true in reverse in boxing, where there are fewer fighters, fewer trainers, smaller talent pool and more infrequent fights.

Your argument seems to come down "it's modern and therefore better" but I'm afraid you have no facts to back up your theory and a wealth of facts to disprove it.

Fitter is very broad. Faster and more powerful perhaps. Whether it helps with absolute stamina, I'm not sure. But fights today are 12 rounds and the pace is faster. After all the heavyweight punch record involves Tua does it not? But there is small and there is small. I suspect the last time Haye was 5'10'' and 185 pounds he was about 14 years old!

polecateddy wrote:Fitter is very broad. Faster and more powerful perhaps. Whether it helps with absolute stamina, I'm not sure. But fights today are 12 rounds and the pace is faster. After all the heavyweight punch record involves Tua does it not? But there is small and there is small. I suspect the last time Haye was 5'10'' and 185 pounds he was about 14 years old!

Tua's fight with Ibeabuchi still holds the heavyweight fight for most punches thrown, I believe.

Prior to that it was Ali/Frazier 3.

But Tua/Ike was 16 years ago - if your theory of ever improving punch output was true, wouldn't this have been beaten by now?

Haye's actual size doesn't matter in the comparison I've given above (Valuev). If you compare the difference in size between him and Valuev as a percentage of both height and weight then you can apply the same %s to Marciano vs someone else. It still equates to the fact that a small fighter can easily hurt a bigger fighter.

polecateddy wrote:
Steriods plain and simple. Both Randy Barnes and Ulf Timmerman systematically used steriod program's. In Ulf's case, state sponsored ones. Athletics isn't clean now, but in the power events it is somewhat better than it was in the 80s/90s.

And going off on a random tangent, transporting your 1950's Rocky into a cruiserweight fight could well potentially mean he would have to overcome a PED enhanced opponent, which I presume is something he never had to do in his day.

And come off it, you can't boil 70 years of sports science down to protein shakes and bulking up. I suspect there might be a bit more to it than that! Lol

So progress is down to steroids and PEDs, great. As has been said before boxing training hasn't changed and if a boxer is taking PEDs then they are simply taking shortcuts. Do you seriously think evolution has genetically changed the human race in 60 years, come on man you must be brighter than that !!!

In circles we go. Look, your Wlad's don't need super-high punch rates. Fighters just can't get anywhere near him. I'm still thinking cruiserweight fights for Rocky I'm afraid. He has no business in with Lennox and the like. Look your Willards may be big but they are not athletic like your best big guys, and by best I don't mean Williams, Skelton and Sprott.

Controversial wrote:

polecateddy wrote:
Steriods plain and simple. Both Randy Barnes and Ulf Timmerman systematically used steriod program's. In Ulf's case, state sponsored ones. Athletics isn't clean now, but in the power events it is somewhat better than it was in the 80s/90s.

And going off on a random tangent, transporting your 1950's Rocky into a cruiserweight fight could well potentially mean he would have to overcome a PED enhanced opponent, which I presume is something he never had to do in his day.

And come off it, you can't boil 70 years of sports science down to protein shakes and bulking up. I suspect there might be a bit more to it than that! Lol

So progress is down to steroids and PEDs, great. As has been said before boxing training hasn't changed and if a boxer is taking PEDs then they are simply taking shortcuts. Do you seriously think evolution has genetically changed the human race in 60 years, come on man you must be brighter than that !!!

It all adds up. More intelligent training methods, sports science, PEDs, and yes bigger (increased bone density and muscle mass, lower body fat) by the best fighters. It all adds up. And if Rocky has none of those advantages he would have a lot to overcome.

polecateddy wrote:

Controversial wrote:

polecateddy wrote:
Steriods plain and simple. Both Randy Barnes and Ulf Timmerman systematically used steriod program's. In Ulf's case, state sponsored ones. Athletics isn't clean now, but in the power events it is somewhat better than it was in the 80s/90s.

And going off on a random tangent, transporting your 1950's Rocky into a cruiserweight fight could well potentially mean he would have to overcome a PED enhanced opponent, which I presume is something he never had to do in his day.

And come off it, you can't boil 70 years of sports science down to protein shakes and bulking up. I suspect there might be a bit more to it than that! Lol

So progress is down to steroids and PEDs, great. As has been said before boxing training hasn't changed and if a boxer is taking PEDs then they are simply taking shortcuts. Do you seriously think evolution has genetically changed the human race in 60 years, come on man you must be brighter than that !!!

It all adds up. More intelligent training methods, sports science, PEDs, and yes bigger (increased bone density and muscle mass, lower body fat) by the best fighters. It all adds up. And if Rocky has none of those advantages he would have a lot to overcome.

Please answer yes or no to the following questions:

Are bigger fighters better than smaller fighters?
Are fighters since 1990 generally fitter than fighters before 1990?

I'm not sure if generally. Like I said before I think from the Ali era onwards the differences between then and the 1990's onwards become more blurred. Holyfield was pretty darn fit in 1990. Fitter than Ali ...yeah probably. Would he have beaten Ali. Harder to say with any certainty.

So far we have learnt that steroids and PEDs are progress and being heavier makes your chin and stamina better.

Plus what I never realised before was how relevant this was, I introduce you to one of the hardest punching people on the planet. No way Tyson or either Klitschko would come close to matching this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC4zNwEz2yM

A better looking version below -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4KDU-0HmQo

polecateddy wrote:I'm not sure if generally. Like I said before I think from the Ali era onwards the differences between then and the 1990's onwards become more blurred. Holyfield was pretty darn fit in 1990. Fitter than Ali ...yeah probably. Would he have beaten Ali. Harder to say with any certainty.

So Marciano's last fight was 1955.

Ali first won the title in 1964.

So something happened during this 9 year period that exponentially increased athletes' fitness.

What was it?

Klitschko training footage. Oh look he is punching underwater, didn't Marciano do that? Maybe its new improved filtered water, you know the type that makes you faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvatO4h_xcA

More footage from Klitschko's modern high tec HQ. Looks like an old barn to me, and the weights he is lifting looks like an old wheel. I was expecting something like Ivan Drago used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d4s3sZhpW4

Yeah dudes, genetics also play a part. Ali had better genetics than Marciano.

Gentlemen, you are all guilty of debating with the insane.

Please, stop this.

Oswald wrote: Haye's actual size doesn't matter in the comparison I've given above (Valuev). If you compare the difference in size between him and Valuev as a percentage of both height and weight then you can apply the same %s to Marciano vs someone else. It still equates to the fact that a small fighter can easily hurt a bigger fighter.

This crucial point has been explained to him innumerable times. He doesn't understand it. He thinks it is physically impossible, even thought it happened and it is on tape and everyone who witnessed it is alive and can attest to it.

Yeah..look how Rocky Balboa beat Ivan Drago.....nuff said ! lol

loaded_gloves wrote:Gentlemen, you are all guilty of debating with the insane.

Please, stop this.

Oh come on its fun. The lists of questions he's dodging is mounting up. Personally, as he was banging on about how high tech the Klitscko's training was, I am waiting with baited breath for him to explain why their training videos are full of them doing the sort of training boxers have done for decades, like running, chopping wood, sparring, bag work and Marciano's favourite, punching underwater. Same for Carl Froch. Maybe thats all for show and their "secret" new fangled methods are kept private.

Don't know but he smashed everyone in his time which is all that matters.

Rocky is from an era when it was about steak and ale, today is about balanced diets, sports psychiatrists and supplements. Very different times.

Controversial wrote:

loaded_gloves wrote:Gentlemen, you are all guilty of debating with the insane.

Please, stop this.

Oh come on its fun. The lists of questions he's dodging is mounting up. Personally, as he was banging on about how high tech the Klitscko's training was, I am waiting with baited breath for him to explain why their training videos are full of them doing the sort of training boxers have done for decades, like running, chopping wood, sparring, bag work and Marciano's favourite, punching underwater. Same for Carl Froch. Maybe thats all for show and their "secret" new fangled methods are kept private.

Speaking of unanswered questions, would anyone care to respond to the videos he posted of Lebedev-Jones and Marciano-Moore? What major disparities in ability are evident when comparing the posted footage, and at what times in the respective videos can they be discerned?

Controversial wrote:Klitschko training footage. Oh look he is punching underwater, didn't Marciano do that? Maybe its new improved filtered water, you know the type that makes you faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvatO4h_xcA

More footage from Klitschko's modern high tec HQ. Looks like an old barn to me, and the weights he is lifting looks like an old wheel. I was expecting something like Ivan Drago used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d4s3sZhpW4

Controversial, always a pleasure to see you on the boards and telling it like it is.

crusader wrote:
Speaking of unanswered questions, would anyone care to respond to the videos he posted of Lebedev-Jones and Marciano-Moore? What major disparities in ability are evident when comparing the posted footage, and at what times in the respective videos can they be discerned?

Maybe no one has bothered replying because its irrelevant. I could post early 'Smokin' Bert Cooper fights and say he is comparable to Joe Frazier or Mike Tyson, trouble is he wasn't. No one has ever said Marciano was technically gifted so you can find loads of examples of better "boxers", that doesn't mean they would beat him.

If there is argument about how modern cruiserweights would fare against Marciano, it's not irrelevant to compare footage of Marciano and modern cruiserweights. If Marciano is significantly better than the fighters in question, this should be discernible in bout footage. If it's not, the assertion that the modern cruiserweights in the footage are at least comparable to Marciano, which I assume would be dismissed by most in this thread, isn't baseless. In fact, if assessments of how Marciano compares to certain fighters aren't based on what's discernible from bouts, what are they based on?

If you can find video of Cooper showing the same speed and explosive and precise combination punching that Tyson regularly showed, I'd like to see it.

crusader wrote:If there is argument about how modern cruiserweights would fare against Marciano, it's not irrelevant to compare footage of Marciano and modern cruiserweights. If Marciano is significantly better than the fighters in question, this should be discernible in bout footage. If it's not, the assertion that the modern cruiserweights in the footage are at least comparable to Marciano, which I assume would be dismissed by most in this thread, isn't baseless. In fact, if assessments of how Marciano compares to certain fighters aren't based on what's discernible from bouts, what are they based on?

If you can find video of Cooper showing the same speed and explosive and precise combination punching that Tyson regularly showed, I'd like to see it.

I've already put up Lebedev v G Jones for comparison with Marciano v Moore. To my naked eye Lebedev appeared faster, more skilled and had more movement and a better work rate.

And it a very fair point being raised here - was Rocky flattered by the level of opposition. There's four main names on his record, who are on the face of it impressive. But delve a bit deeper and you can see Jersey Joe Walcott was having the last two fights of his career. He was 38 the first time he fought Rocky and 39 on the next occasion. Ezzard Charles had lost 2 of his last 4 fights going in with Rocky. He was 33/34 and his best days were behind him. Joe Louis was clearly past it, that's never in dispute. And Archie Moore was in his early forties. And he may have been ageless, but he was also a light-heavy. There is no evidence on his record that he could have coped with the young, modern, motivated heavyweight or cruiserweight champion. What is record consists of is the classic younger, up and coming fighter notching up 'names' of faded fighters and champions past their best. In modern terms this is more the process a young fighter goes through BEFORE he becomes a world champion. It strikes me that Rocky was fortunate with his timing, and that he lacked credible challengers from his own generation.