BoxRec

Kalan wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

jbizzle20 wrote:
I won't argue that his quality of opposition wasn't that great, except for Lewis. I'm basing it on a more subjective approach, namely his fighting style. His jab was nasty and opponents just couldn't get inside on him. His chin was hardcore. Lewis proved that. Vitali should've been knocked out by that epic uppercut near the end.

I find that to be more speculation than subjective. The two best fighters he faced beat him. He has no wins of note and while he certainly passes the eye test, anybody that rates fighters historically on their own predictions is doing it wrong. Two things going against him are his limited power and punch variety. Watch the Kevin Johnson fight, a fat dude laying on the ropes and Vitali can barely touch him. He has certainly proven to be superior to the Manuel Charr's of history. Gotta give him that. His resume is inferior to Byrd, Ruiz and Rahman. So ATG? Not even close.

SaadOff is used toilet paper that's full of Bullcrap.. Vitali fought tremendous opponents and was never out-boxed or out-punched. He was never or behind on points or floored by an opponent... Here's 13 of the better opponents who Vitali easily outboxed.

Kirk Johnson had only one loss in 36 fights, and that was by DQ ... Danny Williams knocked out Mike Tyson in his previous fight, and was in the best form of his career... Larry Donald was only stopped once in his career, by Vitali Klitschko .. Juan Carlos Gomez was 44-1 ... Tomasz Adamek was 43-1 and a 2-Division World Champion. VK was the first fighter to stop Adamek ... Herbie Hide was a 31-1 World Heavyweight Champion when he was flattened in 2 rounds. Hide outboxed Bowe for 3 rounds ... Sam Peter was 30-1 and knocked out Oleg Maskaevwho knocked out Hasim Rahman twice; and obviously Rahman leveled Lewis with one shot ... Timo Hoffman was 22-0 ... Chris Arreola was 28-0 ... Kevin Johnson was undefeated in 23 fights ... Corrie Sanders was a dangerous southpaw puncher and 39-2 ... Ed Mahone was undefeated in 23 fights... Vitali was beating Chris Byrd by a mile in their fight. He only lost because his rotator cuff was completely severed in a freak injury. VK had problems with the shoulder in training camp and it came apart in the fight... Vitali was beating Lewis on all scorecards at the end of their fight. He only lost because of foul induced cuts, and would have smashed Lewis right through the canvas in a rematch.

You can go home now Kalan, it's over

Kalan wrote:... Vitali fought tremendous opponents ...

nope. he didn't. just because numerous
of his opponents had few losses means
squadouche, since so did peter mcneely.

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:The two best fighters he faced beat him.

byrd won the fight, but didn't beat
vitali. you can make a point that
vitali could or should have continued
despite the injury, but you cannot
imply byrd was the better fighter.

Byrd has a better resume than vitali. Nothing to imply, that is a fact. It's not remotely debatable. Better opposition and a h2h victory. Vitali leads the league in apologists and what it's. That's about it.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:The two best fighters he faced beat him.

byrd won the fight, but didn't beat
vitali. you can make a point that
vitali could or should have continued
despite the injury, but you cannot
imply byrd was the better fighter.

Byrd has a better resume than vitali. Nothing to imply, that is a fact. It's not remotely debatable. Better opposition and a h2h victory. Vitali leads the league in apologists and what it's. That's about it.

i am not disputing that byrd has in
a way the "better" record, meaning
he faced and did indeed beat better
opposition, but you wrote regarding
vitali:

"The two best fighters he faced beat him."

and no, one of these two best fighters
did not "beat" him, but won on injury
while being significantly behind on all
cards.

Byrd was a very good boxer with no punching power. He was a southpaw Jimmy Young who outboxed the very slow David Tua for his best win, but he never won a round off Wladimir Klitschko in 2 tries and took horrendous beatings... He was smashed by Ike Ibeabuchi who was ripping him apart in the 5th round of his 20th fight. Ibeabuchi actually landed more punches than Byrd in that fight -- and with a few more fights for experience would have owned the division.

Byrd ended up with tons of losses... BAD LOSSES... So if losses are the only thing you look at Vitai officially had 2 losses -- less than half the losses of other Heavyweights who fought into their 40's, such as Foreman, Holmes, and Wladimir Klitschko---and unlike all 3 of them he's never been knocked off his feet -- or ever ended ANY fight behind on ANY judge's scorecard.

As I said before about VK's victim list: ... "Kirk Johnson had only one loss in 36 fights, and that was by DQ ... Danny Williams knocked out Mike Tyson in his previous fight, and was in the best form of his career... Larry Donald was only stopped once in his career, by Vitali Klitschko .. Juan Carlos Gomez was 44-1 ... Tomasz Adamek was 43-1 and a 2-Division World Champion who never won a single round off Vitali. VK was the first fighter to stop Adamek ... Herbie Hide was a 31-1 World Heavyweight Champion when he was easily flattened in 2 rounds. Hide outboxed Bowe for 3 rounds ... Sam Peter was 30-1 and knocked out Oleg Maskaevwho, who knocked out Hasim Rahman twice; and obviously Rahman leveled Lennox Lewis with ONE (1) shot ... Timo Hoffman was 22-0 ... Chris Arreola was 28-0 ... Kevin Johnson was undefeated in 23 fights ... Corrie Sanders was a dangerous southpaw puncher and 39-2 ... Ed Mahone was undefeated in 23 fights... Vitali was beating Chris Byrd by a mile in their fight. He only lost because his rotator cuff was completely severed in a freak injury. VK had problems with the shoulder in training camp and it came apart in the fight... Vitali was beating Lewis on all scorecards at the end of their fight. He only lost because of foul induced cuts, and would have smashed Lewis right through the canvas in a rematch" ... and those performances puts Vitali well above any retired Heavyweight and probably the #2 Heavyweight of all time.

Indeed.
Both Vitali's losses were due to injuries - but that's boxing.
However, no professional boxer ever outpointed him, knocked him out or even knocked him down!

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

man wrote: byrd won the fight, but didn't beat
vitali. you can make a point that
vitali could or should have continued
despite the injury, but you cannot
imply byrd was the better fighter.

Byrd has a better resume than vitali. Nothing to imply, that is a fact. It's not remotely debatable. Better opposition and a h2h victory. Vitali leads the league in apologists and what it's. That's about it.

i am not disputing that byrd has in
a way the "better" record, meaning
he faced and did indeed beat better
opposition, but you wrote regarding
vitali:

"The two best fighters he faced beat him."

and no, one of these two best fighters
did not "beat" him, but won on injury
while being significantly behind on all
cards.

Lol, word it however you wish. He lost to the two best fighters he faced. That's factual. They weren't bad losses like his brothers, but you can't make them wins. They're his two best results!

Kalan wrote:... those performances puts Vitali well above any retired Heavyweight and probably the #2 Heavyweight of all time.

you right good things and then end
with such nonsense.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Lol, word it however you wish. He lost to the two best fighters he faced. That's factual. They weren't bad losses like his brothers, but you can't make them wins. They're his two best results!

... he lost on two injuries being ahead
on all cards. the only two losses in his
career.

but i get it, you are as biased against
the ks as kalan is in their favor.

You have your top 2... Probably very beatable guys from former era's... I have my top 2.

And Vitali's losses weren't bad losses like Wladimir's. They also weren't bad losses like LEWIS'S losses... Lewis got knocked out with one shot twice... And in fact many (including most of the fans in attendance who cheered Vitali and booed Lewis) believe Vitali was ROBBED BLIND vs Lewis. After Lewis was beaten and almost knocked out in the first 2 rounds he started fouling like crazy early in the 3rd.. Emanuel Steward was even heard telling Lewis to foul.. They were desperate and they knew they had a friendly referee.

This wasn't the ONLY fight Lou Moret ignored foul blows... Moret ignored over 100 fouls in the Guerrero-Berto fight... In fact while Guerrero was holding and hitting Berto with Moret looking straight at the fouls -- Max Kellerman shouted "SHADES OF LENNOX LEWIS" to loud laughter from the HBO crew.

I’m not too concerned about who got the most public acclaim of any Heavyweight in history. The most acclaimed were Sullivan, Dempsey, Louis, Ali, and Tyson. I’m approaching it more from who actually were the best at winning rounds and winning fights if they had to face all the others in “time tunnel” fights.

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Lol, word it however you wish. He lost to the two best fighters he faced. That's factual. They weren't bad losses like his brothers, but you can't make them wins. They're his two best results!

... he lost on two injuries being ahead
on all cards. the only two losses in his
career.

but i get it, you are as biased against
the ks as kalan is in their favor.

His losses were both caused by injuries, but it doesn't help his standing in All Time Heavyweights lists that those 2 losses also happened to be against the 2 best fighters he ever faced by a huge margin. The best opponent he ever beat who is...Corrie Sanders or maybe Sam Peter I guess? Those 2 guys would've lost to Chris Byrd 10 times out of 10 every time they fought him, and Chris Byrd is the lesser of the 2 guys with a win over Vitali, and wouldn't crack any Heavyweight all time Top 40 list.

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Lol, word it however you wish. He lost to the two best fighters he faced. That's factual. They weren't bad losses like his brothers, but you can't make them wins. They're his two best results!

... he lost on two injuries being ahead
on all cards. the only two losses in his
career.

but i get it, you are as biased against
the ks as kalan is in their favor.

That isn't bias, it's 100% truth. You're certainly not proving to be objective with constant semantics about two fights he lost. If he had big wins it wouldn't matter a bit. Those losses are his biggest accomplishments. At least Wlad fought the top guys of a weak era, you can rate him somewhat historically on that. Vitali has nothing but talent. Accomplishments make ATG's.

Edit: I have no issue crediting fighters I don't like. In this discussion, I was firmly behind Vitali against Lewis. In fact, I think he was originally scheduled to face Razor Ruddock for the Byrd fight. Not only do his two losses evidently not count, but he's undefeated against originally scheduled opponents! Yay for Vitali!

Vitali falls way short of Lewis because 1) he lost to Lewis and 2) Lewis beat all of the elite of his era and two sure-fire HOFers, Vitali beat no sure HOFers (I don't consider Adamek to be a lock.)

Kalan wrote:You have your top 2... Probably very beatable guys from former era's... I have my top 2.

And Vitali's losses weren't bad losses like Wladimir's. They also weren't bad losses like LEWIS'S losses... Lewis got knocked out with one shot twice... And in fact many (including most of the fans in attendance who cheered Vitali and booed Lewis) believe Vitali was ROBBED BLIND vs Lewis. After Lewis was beaten and almost knocked out in the first 2 rounds he started fouling like crazy early in the 3rd.. Emanuel Steward was even heard telling Lewis to foul.. They were desperate and they knew they had a friendly referee.

This wasn't the ONLY fight Lou Moret ignored foul blows... Moret ignored over 100 fouls in the Guerrero-Berto fight... In fact while Guerrero was holding and hitting Berto with Moret looking straight at the fouls -- Max Kellerman shouted "SHADES OF LENNOX LEWIS" to loud laughter from the HBO crew.

They booed because the fight ended, having nothing to do with supposed fouls. It started as soon as the doctor called it, without even knowing how the decision would be made. People booed when the ref stopped the Tszyu-Chavez fight despite Chavez getting killed. It's called bloodthirsty fans want to see someone carried out on a stretcher.

Williams beat a Tyson that suffered the worst beating of his career, by Lewis, two years prior. Also, Tyson's knee went out on him in the middle of the Williams fight. Mike was actually fighting fairly well prior to that injury.

gilgamesh wrote:

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Lol, word it however you wish. He lost to the two best fighters he faced. That's factual. They weren't bad losses like his brothers, but you can't make them wins. They're his two best results!

... he lost on two injuries being ahead
on all cards. the only two losses in his
career.

but i get it, you are as biased against
the ks as kalan is in their favor.

His losses were both caused by injuries, but it doesn't help his standing in All Time Heavyweights lists that those 2 losses also happened to be against the 2 best fighters he ever faced by a huge margin. The best opponent he ever beat who is...Corrie Sanders or maybe Sam Peter I guess? Those 2 guys would've lost to Chris Byrd 10 times out of 10 every time they fought him, and Chris Byrd is the lesser of the 2 guys with a win over Vitali, and wouldn't crack any Heavyweight all time Top 40 list.

So gilgamesh.... By your reasoning Ali would not make the top 40 because Norton and Spinks wouldn't??? ... And Lewis wouldn't make the top 40 because Rahman and McCall wouldn't??? And Louis wouldn't make the top 10 by because Schmeling wouldn't??? And their losses all went away because they were afforded rematches and Klitschko WASN'T??? ... In that case I think you should take the nature of Vitali's losses into consideration -- because although he was half blinded in one loss and suffered a disabled left arm in his other loss, ALL of the judges had him winning both contests on points at the conclusion of those contests.

Besides... Larry Holmes and George Foreman lost to Michael Spinks and Jimmy Young respectively and NEVER avenged their losses... You can't undo a loss---but you CAN say "Alright..he lost. But he was beating the guys he lost to when the fights were stopped because of injuries... I also do NOT think the American boxers given the top spots by old fart American "experts" come without a great deal of national bias and generational prejudice.

jbizzle20 wrote:Williams beat a Tyson that suffered the worst beating of his career, by Lewis, two years prior. Also, Tyson's knee went out on him in the middle of the Williams fight. Mike was actually fighting fairly well prior to that injury.

Mike just wasn't prepared for any kind of tough competition at that point in his career he wanted to win by 1st or 2nd round KO or he wanted to get his check and go home.

Kalan wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

man wrote: ... he lost on two injuries being ahead
on all cards. the only two losses in his
career.

but i get it, you are as biased against
the ks as kalan is in their favor.

His losses were both caused by injuries, but it doesn't help his standing in All Time Heavyweights lists that those 2 losses also happened to be against the 2 best fighters he ever faced by a huge margin. The best opponent he ever beat who is...Corrie Sanders or maybe Sam Peter I guess? Those 2 guys would've lost to Chris Byrd 10 times out of 10 every time they fought him, and Chris Byrd is the lesser of the 2 guys with a win over Vitali, and wouldn't crack any Heavyweight all time Top 40 list.

So gilgamesh.... By your reasoning Ali would not make the top 40 because Norton and Spinks wouldn't??? ... And Lewis wouldn't make the top 40 because Rahman and McCall wouldn't??? And Louis wouldn't make the top 10 by because Schmeling wouldn't??? And their losses all went away because they were afforded rematches and Klitschko WASN'T??? ... In that case I think you should take the nature of Vitali's losses into consideration -- because although he was half blinded in one loss and suffered a disabled left arm in his other loss, ALL of the judges had him winning both contests on points at the conclusion of those contests.

Besides... Larry Holmes and George Foreman lost to Michael Spinks and Jimmy Young respectively and NEVER avenged their losses... You can't undo a loss---but you CAN say "Alright..he lost. But he was beating the guys he lost to when the fights were stopped because of injuries... I also do NOT think the American boxers given the top spots by old fart American "experts" come without a great deal of national bias and generational prejudice.

I would have Vitali in the Top 40 even though I wouldn't have Byrd there because I do think Vitali is better than Byrd in spite of his loss to him, but the fact remains he never was able to beat a fighter that was more accomplished than Byrd.

gilgamesh wrote:

jbizzle20 wrote:Williams beat a Tyson that suffered the worst beating of his career, by Lewis, two years prior. Also, Tyson's knee went out on him in the middle of the Williams fight. Mike was actually fighting fairly well prior to that injury.

Mike just wasn't prepared for any kind of tough competition at that point in his career he wanted to win by 1st or 2nd round KO or he wanted to get his check and go home.

Yeah, that's why he just sat there after that last knockdown. He was still with it but his knee was shot and he wasn't interested in fighting any longer.

jbizzle20 wrote:Williams beat a Tyson that suffered the worst beating of his career, by Lewis, two years prior. Also, Tyson's knee went out on him in the middle of the Williams fight. Mike was actually fighting fairly well prior to that injury.

Tyson had a knee in the Williams fight... But before that injury his punches weren't having a big effect on the much larger Williams... In his his last fight Tyson fought the 271-pound McBride and couldn't hurt him. It was a joke. Lewis, Williams, and McBride averaged over 260 pounds and Tyson was a small Heavyweight.. I think he found out how small in the Buster Douglas fight because he was only 23 and gave up height, weight, reach, speed and skill.. Tyson was 38 when he fought Williams and McBride -- but I also don't think Mike gave himself the best chance to win in some of his fights and he needs to get dinged for losing 6.. Wladimir looked very slow and unsure of himself in his last fight. He was afraid to punch. Let's see if he can compensate for whatever age related problems he has by being more aggressive, committing to a more intense preparation, or figuring something else out. It would elevate him if he won at his age, but I think he's toast.

jbizzle20 wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

jbizzle20 wrote:Williams beat a Tyson that suffered the worst beating of his career, by Lewis, two years prior. Also, Tyson's knee went out on him in the middle of the Williams fight. Mike was actually fighting fairly well prior to that injury.

Mike just wasn't prepared for any kind of tough competition at that point in his career he wanted to win by 1st or 2nd round KO or he wanted to get his check and go home.

Yeah, that's why he just sat there after that last knockdown. He was still with it but his knee was shot and he wasn't interested in fighting any longer.

I bet a whole room of people at the end of round one. As soon as Williams survived that onslaught, it was over.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Lol, word it however you wish. He lost to the two best fighters he faced. That's factual. They weren't bad losses like his brothers, but you can't make them wins. They're his two best results!

... he lost on two injuries being ahead
on all cards. the only two losses in his
career.

but i get it, you are as biased against
the ks as kalan is in their favor.

That isn't bias, it's 100% truth. You're certainly not proving to be objective with constant semantics about two fights he lost. If he had big wins it wouldn't matter a bit. Those losses are his biggest accomplishments. At least Wlad fought the top guys of a weak era, you can rate him somewhat historically on that. Vitali has nothing but talent. Accomplishments make ATG's.

Edit: I have no issue crediting fighters I don't like. In this discussion, I was firmly behind Vitali against Lewis. In fact, I think he was originally scheduled to face Razor Ruddock for the Byrd fight. Not only do his two losses evidently not count, but he's undefeated against originally scheduled opponents! Yay for Vitali!

i am not claiming vitali is a legendary
ATG. i am saying he gave a fading but
still not that bad ATG10 lennox lewis
a very tough fight and it is clear as
daylight that he wins 10 out of 10
against chris byrd if he is not injured.

the view of "the two best fighters he
faced beat him" is true only on a very
superficial level.

i agree he didn't face good enough
competition and unlike wlad made
too easy defences. i am not big fan
of his career, but i give credit where
credit is due.

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

man wrote: ... he lost on two injuries being ahead
on all cards. the only two losses in his
career.

but i get it, you are as biased against
the ks as kalan is in their favor.

That isn't bias, it's 100% truth. You're certainly not proving to be objective with constant semantics about two fights he lost. If he had big wins it wouldn't matter a bit. Those losses are his biggest accomplishments. At least Wlad fought the top guys of a weak era, you can rate him somewhat historically on that. Vitali has nothing but talent. Accomplishments make ATG's.

Edit: I have no issue crediting fighters I don't like. In this discussion, I was firmly behind Vitali against Lewis. In fact, I think he was originally scheduled to face Razor Ruddock for the Byrd fight. Not only do his two losses evidently not count, but he's undefeated against originally scheduled opponents! Yay for Vitali!

i am not claiming vitali is a legendary
ATG. i am saying he gave a fading but
still not that bad ATG10 lennox lewis
a very tough fight and it is clear as
daylight that he wins 10 out of 10
against chris byrd if he is not injured.

the view of "the two best fighters he
faced beat him" is true only on a very
superficial level.

i agree he didn't face good enough
competition and unlike wlad made
too easy defences. i am not big fan
of his career, but i give credit where
credit is due.

I'm not interested in repeating the same stuff over and over. I'll just leave you with this, it's also clear as day that he'd beat Lewis 10 out of 10 if Lewis promised not to hit him hard. Byrd is 1-0, superficial, disingenuous, biased, blah, blah, blah. It wasn't a bad decision that doesn't deserve recognition. Vitali could not continue and as easy as you want to make it out to be, he was never looking for a rematch.