BoxRec

scartissue wrote:OK, here's a fun one that can involve our friends across the pond. England vs. Calif.

Chris Finnegan v. Yaqui Lopez
John Stracey v. Armando Muniz
Pat Cowdell v. Tury Pineda
Mark Kaylor v. Mike Nixon
Alan Rudkin v. Rogelio Lara
Billy Walker v. Joey Orbillo

Damn, I shoulda been a matchmaker. I'm looking at these and most of them are damn close. I'll have to really think on these.

Scartissue

Finnegan gave Conteh two hard fights whereas Lopez was easily outboxed by Conteh, so I go for Finnegan in a close, exciting, bloody one.
Stracey was lucky that he got to Napoles after Muniz, so I lean towards Armando in a war.
Cowdell was a great boxer while Pineda was tough and brave but not consistently world class. Cowdell wins a decision.
I must admit I don't know enough about Rudkin or Lara - sadly - to offer a view.
Walker was limited but gutsy and always capable of pulling out a big one as he showed in the first fight with Johnny Prescott. However, I feel that Orbillo's toughess would have earned him the points in front of a giant crowd.

The Lonsdale Belt.

Rick Farris wrote:Art Aragon vs. Jimmy McLarnin - 15 rds

Jimmy Mc. would outbox Artie, Art had trouble with boxer's, stand in front of him and you were in deep sh*t, don't think Jimmy Mc. would do that....

Rick Farris wrote:

scartissue wrote:OK, here's a fun one that can involve our friends across the pond. England vs. Calif.

Chris Finnegan v. Yaqui Lopez
John Stracey v. Armando Muniz
Pat Cowdell v. Tury Pineda
Mark Kaylor v. Mike Nixon
Alan Rudkin v. Rogelio Lara
Billy Walker v. Joey Orbillo

Damn, I shoulda been a matchmaker. I'm looking at these and most of them are damn close. I'll have to really think on these.

Scartissue

Lopez
Muniz
Cowdell
Kaylor
Lara
Walker

Agree.....

bennie wrote:

The Lonsdale Belt.

My butt was in the seats in Hawaii in Nov of 75 when Bobby Chacon sort of went through his destructive routine on Fel Clemente
I was also present at Veterans Memorial Coliseum when Salvadore Sanchez introduced himself to Danny Lopez (and the world) for what would be a brief visit to the top before his untimely death.

Some great memories! I know this conversation has likely already taken place, but it occurs to me to ask some questions here.


1. Seems Fels job was to be an "opponent". Though I do remember him giving it a great try. It didn't seem that he was interested in just taking a paycheck on that day. Though I heard different when he faced Lopez. Any memories of this guy?

2. Limon,Sanchez, Lopez, Chacon, Edwards. Would you mind taking a crack at rating these guys each at their peak? What would you have thought of the outcome of a Sanchez Chacon fight each at their best? I think in real time I'd favor Sanchez due to age. But at their best? IMHO Danny at his best was not the fighter Bobby was. Could he have bested Sanchez? I used to think not. But I now believe I badly underrated Bobby. I sort of thought of him as sort of a Gatti. A guy who could give a great account on heart, but might not be elite. After watching many of his fights which are now available, I'm changing my opinion.

kikibalt wrote:

bennie wrote:

The Lonsdale Belt.

Still the finest & most honorable belt to have fixed round a boxers waist it puts all the plastic crap in the shade

Is this a different version of the same honor, via a different actual belt?

BoxBuzz wrote:My butt was in the seats in Hawaii in Nov of 75 when Bobby Chacon sort of went through his destructive routine on Fel Clemente
I was also present at Veterans Memorial Coliseum when Salvadore Sanchez introduced himself to Danny Lopez (and the world) for what would be a brief visit to the top before his untimely death.

Some great memories! I know this conversation has likely already taken place, but it occurs to me to ask some questions here.


1. Seems Fels job was to be an "opponent". Though I do remember him giving it a great try. It didn't seem that he was interested in just taking a paycheck on that day. Though I heard different when he faced Lopez. Any memories of this guy?

2. Limon,Sanchez, Lopez, Chacon, Edwards. Would you mind taking a crack at rating these guys each at their peak? What would you have thought of the outcome of a Sanchez Chacon fight each at their best? I think in real time I'd favor Sanchez due to age. But at their best? IMHO Danny at his best was not the fighter Bobby was. Could he have bested Sanchez? I used to think not. But I now believe I badly underrated Bobby. I sort of thought of him as sort of a Gatti. A guy who could give a great account on heart, but might not be elite. After watching many of his fights which are now available, I'm changing my opinion.

Boxbuzz, to be fair, there were two Bobby's. As a fighters career evolves or winds down there are dramatic changes to a fighter. Like an Ali who could no longer dance all night, he sat down on his punches more but began taking a few in return. This was Bobby as well. Most people hear the name Bobby Chacon and think "blood and guts fighter". But this wasn't the case earlier in his career. I remember when he had an immaculate, hard jab, could box and after the 1st Olivares fight, learned the rudiments of body-punching. And yes, he could duck and slip. His 126 lb. peak would have been the Kurosawa-Lopez-Marcano-Estrada fights and he was awesome in those days. Whatever attributed to his moving up in weight could have been a growing body, partying lifestyle or like his manager Joe Ponce would complain, not enough time in the gym. Whatever, he wasn't the same force anymore. About '77, I think it was a bout against a non-descript Miguel Estrada, I saw him make an absolute meal of the fight. He was awkward and his reflexes were crap. I sat there saying, "What's wrong with Bobby?" Little did I know I was looking at the next phase of his career. The blood and guts warrior. Only twice more did I actually see a remnant of the old Bobby. That was the Arguello fight and the second Bazooka Limon fight. Both fights ended in 7 and IMO Bobby was ahead in both fights (he was). Arguello stopped him on a cut and the Limon fight was a tech. draw due to a butt I believe that left Limon unable to continue (in Calif. a fighter receiving the butt can get no worse than a draw). I prefer to think of the 126 lb. Bobby who could do it all. He would not be fighting the counter-punching master Sanchez like Lopez did. Danny was made for Sanchez. But Bobby could box when he wanted to and I would give him an excellent shot at decisioning Sanchez over 15 in a close fight.

Scartissue

bennie wrote:

scartissue wrote:OK, here's a fun one that can involve our friends across the pond. England vs. Calif.

Chris Finnegan v. Yaqui Lopez
John Stracey v. Armando Muniz
Pat Cowdell v. Tury Pineda
Mark Kaylor v. Mike Nixon
Alan Rudkin v. Rogelio Lara
Billy Walker v. Joey Orbillo

Damn, I shoulda been a matchmaker. I'm looking at these and most of them are damn close. I'll have to really think on these.

Scartissue

Finnegan gave Conteh two hard fights whereas Lopez was easily outboxed by Conteh, so I go for Finnegan in a close, exciting, bloody one.
Stracey was lucky that he got to Napoles after Muniz, so I lean towards Armando in a war.
Cowdell was a great boxer while Pineda was tough and brave but not consistently world class. Cowdell wins a decision.
I must admit I don't know enough about Rudkin or Lara - sadly - to offer a view.
Walker was limited but gutsy and always capable of pulling out a big one as he showed in the first fight with Johnny Prescott. However, I feel that Orbillo's toughess would have earned him the points in front of a giant crowd.

Scar . . . You are likely right on the Finnigan-Lopez match. In this match, I picked my favorite but not with confidence that he'd leave the ring with a win. I see Armando beating up Stracey, especially late in the fight. Not cut on the Brit, but I don't see him as lucky with the Armando as he was with the way past prime Napoles. As for Cowdell. I agree, he has boxing skills and Pineda is easy to hit, and also has a soft chin. Pineda would have to lay a lot of fury on Cowdell early and land a big one to get the win. I saw enough of Rudkin up close (at the end of his career) to know that he'd have had a tough time with Lara. I worked a lot with Rogelio prior to his title fight with Romeo Anaya. Lara was robbed in that one at the Forum. I don't see one British or Europen bantamweight in history capable of competing with any of the Mexican crop of the 60's-70's.
I can say the same thing for bantamweights from any part of the world during that era, including the USA. As for Kaylor & Nixon, Kaylor isn't that much, but Nixon wasn't either. Take your pick, but I'd never bet on Nixon's chin. Orbillo was a good one, too bad they didn't have the cruiserweight division back then. Joey was fast, boxed nice, hit hard, but just too small for the heavyweights. He might have a chance with Walker, who was a nice looking fella but not competitive among the creme of the 60's crop.

telboy66 wrote:

kikibalt wrote:

bennie wrote:

The Lonsdale Belt.

Still the finest & most honorable belt to have fixed round a boxers waist it puts all the plastic crap in the shade

Amen, tellboy! Of the World Championship belts, Mando Ramos was the last boxing champion to receieve the coveted "The Ring Magazine" belt, which he proudly displays to Dan Hanley and I during his very last video interview. Today belts are more common than trophies. I know a 12-year-old junior with a half dozen huge belts hanging in his closet. Damn . . . I'm sure Jack Blackburn passed having never been given one belt.

Davey Moore vs. Salvador Sanchez

A Trophy Room?

I was thinking back to the 60's and early 70's, when the Baltazar boys were active in the L.A. Jr. Golden Gloves program.
Junior matches were common back then, sometimes a weekly event.
Win or lose, most of the kids receieved a trophy. In those days, the Baltazar boys didn't do much losing, which meant they would usually take home a larger trophy for winning. There were three Baltazar brothers fighting, Frankie Jr., Tony and Bobby.

Frank, where did you put all the trophies? Your boys had to be winning two or three dozen trophies a year?
Today I have a big box in storage that contains the remains of several dozen of my own trophies. Just parts today. Old junk.
The Baltazar's must have had a couple hundred trophies or awards at home?

Where did you put them, Kiki? Where are they today?

Rick Farris wrote:Davey Moore vs. Salvador Sanchez

For the record, Sanchez was brilliant, but in this one I'll pick Davey Moore.
What do you think, Frank? You saw Moore up close, and you know who he was fighting.
I talked with Vince Delgado about Davey Moore, but he doesn't remember much.

bennie wrote:

The Lonsdale Belt.

Rick Farris wrote:

bennie wrote:

scartissue wrote:OK, here's a fun one that can involve our friends across the pond. England vs. Calif.

Chris Finnegan v. Yaqui Lopez
John Stracey v. Armando Muniz
Pat Cowdell v. Tury Pineda
Mark Kaylor v. Mike Nixon
Alan Rudkin v. Rogelio Lara
Billy Walker v. Joey Orbillo

Damn, I shoulda been a matchmaker. I'm looking at these and most of them are damn close. I'll have to really think on these.

Scartissue

Finnegan gave Conteh two hard fights whereas Lopez was easily outboxed by Conteh, so I go for Finnegan in a close, exciting, bloody one.
Stracey was lucky that he got to Napoles after Muniz, so I lean towards Armando in a war.
Cowdell was a great boxer while Pineda was tough and brave but not consistently world class. Cowdell wins a decision.
I must admit I don't know enough about Rudkin or Lara - sadly - to offer a view.
Walker was limited but gutsy and always capable of pulling out a big one as he showed in the first fight with Johnny Prescott. However, I feel that Orbillo's toughess would have earned him the points in front of a giant crowd.

Scar . . . You are likely right on the Finnigan-Lopez match. In this match, I picked my favorite but not with confidence that he'd leave the ring with a win. I see Armando beating up Stracey, especially late in the fight. Not cut on the Brit, but I don't see him as lucky with the Armando as he was with the way past prime Napoles. As for Cowdell. I agree, he has boxing skills and Pineda is easy to hit, and also has a soft chin. Pineda would have to lay a lot of fury on Cowdell early and land a big one to get the win. I saw enough of Rudkin up close (at the end of his career) to know that he'd have had a tough time with Lara. I worked a lot with Rogelio prior to his title fight with Romeo Anaya. Lara was robbed in that one at the Forum. I don't see one British or Europen bantamweight in history capable of competing with any of the Mexican crop of the 60's-70's.
I can say the same thing for bantamweights from any part of the world during that era, including the USA. As for Kaylor & Nixon, Kaylor isn't that much, but Nixon wasn't either. Take your pick, but I'd never bet on Nixon's chin. Orbillo was a good one, too bad they didn't have the cruiserweight division back then. Joey was fast, boxed nice, hit hard, but just too small for the heavyweights. He might have a chance with Walker, who was a nice looking fella but not competitive among the creme of the 60's crop.

Rick, actually that was Bennie who made those predictions. My own picks would actually mirror yours. I cannot see Lopez losing to Finnegan, but Chris was all heart and would be there at the end. No doubt in my mind that Muniz would stop Stracey. Pineda could rock with that left hook to either body or head, but Cowdell had a good set of whiskers and was a good boxer with a lot of experience over 15 rounds. Gotta go with Pat here. Kaylor and Nixon is really close. Nixon had some nice wins over Rossman and Gert Steyn, but Kaylor was no mug himself and showed real resiliency against Sibson and his knock down drag out with Errol Christie. Like you, it's Kaylor by a chin. It's still in my menory of Art and George Davis taking Nixon out. The Rudkin-Lara match would be razor close. Rudkin was in with Olivares, Harada, Rose, McGowan. While Lara was in with Castillo, Martinez, Sanchez, Anaya. They both fought at the very top and being shaded for the title. It's so close but Lara by a nose. The last one could be fought 10 times and they could go 5-5 with one another. Walker by a shade.

Scartissue

Rick Farris wrote:A Trophy Room?

I was thinking back to the 60's and early 70's, when the Baltazar boys were active in the L.A. Jr. Golden Gloves program.
Junior matches were common back then, sometimes a weekly event.
Win or lose, most of the kids receieved a trophy. In those days, the Baltazar boys didn't do much losing, which meant they would usually take home a larger trophy for winning. There were three Baltazar brothers fighting, Frankie Jr., Tony and Bobby.

Frank, where did you put all the trophies? Your boys had to be winning two or three dozen trophies a year?
Today I have a big box in storage that contains the remains of several dozen of my own trophies. Just parts today. Old junk.
The Baltazar's must have had a couple hundred trophies or awards at home?

Where did you put them, Kiki? Where are they today?

Rick...Shown here on our fireplace mantel are some of the many trophies we USED to have, don't have them any more, what happened to them? don't know.
On the photo...Connie, me, my sister Annie and Tony in front...Circa 1973

Rick Farris wrote:

Rick Farris wrote:Davey Moore vs. Salvador Sanchez

For the record, Sanchez was brilliant, but in this one I'll pick Davey Moore.
What do you think, Frank? You saw Moore up close, and you know who he was fighting.
I talked with Vince Delgado about Davey Moore, but he doesn't remember much.

No, I don't think Vince D would remember much, and I don't think he wants to remember..

I seen both Moore and Sanchez up close, I would pick Moore in a hard fought fight by D. Moore imo is one of the most underrated fighter in the history of the sport....

kikibalt wrote:

Rick Farris wrote:

Rick Farris wrote:Davey Moore vs. Salvador Sanchez

For the record, Sanchez was brilliant, but in this one I'll pick Davey Moore.
What do you think, Frank? You saw Moore up close, and you know who he was fighting.
I talked with Vince Delgado about Davey Moore, but he doesn't remember much.

No, I don't think Vince D would remember much, and I don't think he wants to remember..

I seen both Moore and Sanchez up close, I would pick Moore in a hard fought fight by D. Moore imo is one of the most underrated fighter in the history of the sport....

Frank, as I have written before, Dwight Hawkins was a sparring partner for Davey Moore before his fights with Hogan Kid Bassey and Sugar Ramos.
Just as my hero was Dwight Hawkins, Hawkins' hero was Davey Moore.
The last time I spoke with Hawkins in 1995, he said the same thing you just did, Frank.
He believed that Davey Moore was one of the ring's most under rated world champs.

Davey Moore vs. Vicente Saldivar . . .

In 1963, as one career ended tragically, the other was just taking shape.
Saldivar had been pro more than two years when Davey Moore died, following his KO loss to Sugar Ramos.
A month after Ramos KOed Moore to win the featherweight title, Saldivar, 21-years-old, KOed Dwight Hawkins in Monterrey, Mexico.
The following year he'd defeat Ismael Laguna, and then stop Sugar Ramos for the featherweight title.

Had Moore and Saldivar fought in real time, it would have been an aged Davey Moore facing a brilliant young southpaw.
Had they fought at their respective personal bests?

How do you see this one?

Vicente Saldivar vs. Salvador Sanchez . . .


With all respect to Sanchez, even the brilliant Azuma Nelson was not in the class of Saldivar.
Wifredo Gomez and Danny Lopez could knock over a house, but were lost in the ring with a technician like Sanchez.
Vicente Saldivar? Saldivar was a southpaw cutie, and a master technician who had KO power on both sides.
I saw Saldivar live when he KOed Raul Rojas at the Coliseum in '65. Ater 15 rounds, both fighters faces busted up.
Sanchez moved nicely, he knew how to control the direction of a match, the key to beating a southpaw.
But Saldivar was not just any southpaw, which he proved in his easy handling of Laguna.
Saldivar could out box the best boxers, and nullify the hardest hitters.

My pick Saldivar via close decision.

D

kikibalt wrote:

Rick Farris wrote:A Trophy Room?

I was thinking back to the 60's and early 70's, when the Baltazar boys were active in the L.A. Jr. Golden Gloves program.
Junior matches were common back then, sometimes a weekly event.
Win or lose, most of the kids receieved a trophy. In those days, the Baltazar boys didn't do much losing, which meant they would usually take home a larger trophy for winning. There were three Baltazar brothers fighting, Frankie Jr., Tony and Bobby.

Frank, where did you put all the trophies? Your boys had to be winning two or three dozen trophies a year?
Today I have a big box in storage that contains the remains of several dozen of my own trophies. Just parts today. Old junk.
The Baltazar's must have had a couple hundred trophies or awards at home?

Where did you put them, Kiki? Where are they today?

Rick...Shown here on our fireplace mantel are some of the many trophies we USED to have, don't have them any more, what happened to them? don't know.
On the photo...Connie, me, my sister Annie and Tony in front...Circa 1973

Raul Rojas . . .

Long over looked by the WBHOF, time to induct L.A. legend and former two-time world champ, Raul Rojas.
Today's voting membership is ignorant of the world boxing scene during the 60's in Los Angeles.
Rojas has been on the ballot, but most voting members have limited knowledge of Rojas and the L.A. market.
We didn't have cable TV in those days, but we did have a weekly local broadcast. Rojas was a star of the era.

Raul has been in bad health for years. He has always participated in WBHOF events when invited, signed autographs.
We are all going to pass one day, and before Raul Rojas' last day he should take the stage and receieve his bronze.
He earned it!

If the votes don't tally, then educate the world by using "Historic Privledge" and just putting him in.
We do not have educated voters, and history should not be held hostage by the ignorant.


-Rick Farris

Ernie "Indian Red" Lopez vs. L.C. Morgan . . .

This is a match that should have happened. However, they never fought.
Mid-60's this would be a good fight!
I watched Adolph Pruitt school Ernie in Las Vegas.
L.C. and Red would have been a great match, IMO.