Classic American West Coast Boxing

[THEHAMMER321]

I finally got to see a movie that I always wanted to see, requiem for a heavyweight it was on what our cable company calls freezone, anyway I enjoyed it got to see a lot of exfighters in the cast like JACK Dempsey, Willie Pep, Barney Ross and many others.

[kikibalt]

I finally got to see a movie that I always wanted to see, requiem for a heavyweight it was on what our cable company calls freezone, anyway I enjoyed it got to see a lot of exfighters in the cast like JACK Dempsey, Willie Pep, Barney Ross and many others.

That's a great flick Paul....

[Panzerfaust]

McCoy had a "back-to-the-future" approach. Fighters from Jeffries era kept their weight on the back foot too (although these old-timers were more radical about it. Look at photos of Fitz, Johnson, etc. and you can see how they shifted their weight to the back foot.). That changed during the Dempsey era. My personal opinion is that keeping the weight distributed evenly allows better foot movement, so perhaps there is a trade-off.

i usually take the fighters psycholoogical dispostiotion and his physical into consideration
and theres definatly a slight tradeoff, I teach a 40-60 split of the weight. personaly i prefer to lean back on it and to the right a bit.
Im very interested in Franks oppinion here as was mentioned has trained word level fighters(hint hint Frank )

I got alot of old boxing manuals in pdf format found alot of interesting things in them

Psychological make up? what if they are crazy?...

That's all I am saying on this....

I bet Ray White's trainer had his hands fulll
anyone know if theres any film of White by the way?

[kikibalt]

i usually take the fighters psycholoogical dispostiotion and his physical into consideration
and theres definatly a slight tradeoff, I teach a 40-60 split of the weight. personaly i prefer to lean back on it and to the right a bit.
Im very interested in Franks oppinion here as was mentioned has trained word level fighters(hint hint Frank )

I got alot of old boxing manuals in pdf format found alot of interesting things in them

Psychological make up? what if they are crazy?...

That's all I am saying on this....

I bet Ray White's trainer had his hands fulll
anyone know if theres any film of White by the way?

Don't know about flim on White. Btw, he is getting inducted into the Calif. boxing hall of fame next year.

[Panzerfaust]

He gonna show up in person?

[kikibalt]

He gonna show up in person?

Yes, he just lives north of L.A.

[Rick Farris]

He gonna show up in person?

Yes, he just lives north of L.A.

David Martinez crossed paths with Ray near Santa Barbara last week.
Windmill is a great induction, so is Hawkins.

[Rick Farris]

"A Broken Windmill"


A Saturday morning at the Main Street Gym, late 60's . . .

Jerry Quarry is sparring with Ray "Windmill" White, just warming up with the cautious 175 pounder.
There was no hint of a clown from Windmill in the early moments of this sparring session.
Jerry was just bouncing around, flicking light jabs, picking off White's tentative, jerky jab.

Ray was wide-eyed, I couldn't tell if he was scared or crazy, likely both.
Suddenly, as Quarry drags a lazy jab back low, White jumps forward, somehow wrapping his left arm around the back of Jerry's head.
He then corks Quarry in the nose with a clowning behind-the-back right. White quickly slid off to the side.

Dumb bastid! You can't imagine the rage in Jerry's face. He charges White, picks him up and tosses him in a corner.
Jerry digs a left hook to Windmill's side. I can still hear the thud of the blow slamming against Ray's body.
Windmill sunk to the canvas, paralyzed, hugging his side and moaning. Ribs were cracked.

I'll never forget that. It was never good to piss off Jerry Quarry.
I hope to ask Ray about that when we meet again.


-Rick Farris

[Chuck1052]

As far as I know, Ray "Windmill" White still lives in a small unincorporated town of Oakview, which is located north of Ventura and south of Ojai on Highway 33.

- Chuck Johnston

[CNorkusJr]

I finally got to see a movie that I always wanted to see, requiem for a heavyweight it was on what our cable company calls freezone, anyway I enjoyed it got to see a lot of exfighters in the cast like JACK Dempsey, Willie Pep, Barney Ross and many others.

Certainly this one was a Classic ! Here is a picture of my dad with Jackie Gleason and Mickey on the set. My father, a former heavyweight, was a good friend of Gleason who also put him in "The Hustler" .
In "Requiem...." my father is the referee of the midget wrestlers at the end of the movie when Mountain (Anthony Quinn) becomes a indian wrestler.
My father told me the scene was filmed in the old St.Nicks Arena which was slated to renovated in 1962 after the movie was filmed to become what is now ABC-TV studios in New York (on 66th St). Who was the famous wrestling star that Mountain was to wrestle in the ring ? (scroll down)





540 lbs Haystacks Calhoun

[bennie]

Billy Papke and son

[raylawpc]

Billy Papke and son

A rather poigant photograph. Billy Jr. never went beyond the ranks of a prelim fighter, and Billy murdered his wife and turned the gun on himself in 1936. Very sad.

[kikibalt]

As far as I know, Ray "Windmill" White still lives in a small unincorporated town of Oakview, which is located north of Ventura and south of Ojai on Highway 33.

- Chuck Johnston

I think you're right Chuck. David Martinez and White ran into each other in Solvang over the weekend at a youth boxing boxing show, they both had kids boxing at said boxing show.

[Panzerfaust]

I finally got to see a movie that I always wanted to see, requiem for a heavyweight it was on what our cable company calls freezone, anyway I enjoyed it got to see a lot of exfighters in the cast like JACK Dempsey, Willie Pep, Barney Ross and many others.

Certainly this one was a Classic ! Here is a picture of my dad with Jackie Gleason and Mickey on the set. My father, a former heavyweight, was a good friend of Gleason who also put him in "The Hustler" .
In "Requiem...." my father is the referee of the midget wrestlers at the end of the movie when Mountain (Anthony Quinn) becomes a indian wrestler.
My father told me the scene was filmed in the old St.Nicks Arena which was slated to renovated in 1962 after the movie was filmed to become what is now ABC-TV studios in New York (on 66th St). Who was the famous wrestling star that Mountain was to wrestle in the ring ? (scroll down)








540 lbs Haystacks Calhoun

Heres something found on the web:
The entertainer Jackie Gleason used to tell this story from his stand-up comedy days. It seems he was playing a joint in New Jersey where he was being unmercifully heckled by a fat, beer guzzling, middle aged, bald jerk smoking a cigar. Finally, Gleason had had enough. He invited the obnoxious patron to step outside. Gleason swore he never saw anyone move so fast to take him up on his offer. The two went out into the street and Gleason next remembered coming to in his dressing room. Gleason had two questions: "What happened?", and "Who was that guy?". What happened was that he was knocked out cold. The guy that did it was Tony Galento.

[CNorkusJr]

Panzerfaust wrote[/quote]
Heres something found on the web:
The entertainer Jackie Gleason used to tell this story from his stand-up comedy days. It seems he was playing a joint in New Jersey where he was being unmercifully heckled by a fat, beer guzzling, middle aged, bald jerk smoking a cigar. Finally, Gleason had had enough. He invited the obnoxious patron to step outside. Gleason swore he never saw anyone move so fast to take him up on his offer. The two went out into the street and Gleason next remembered coming to in his dressing room. Gleason had two questions: "What happened?", and "Who was that guy?". What happened was that he was knocked out cold. The guy that did it was Tony Galento.[/quote]

I dont know if that happened, but it sure sounds like Tony Galento to me.
One of Jackie Gleason's hangouts was Toots Shors. It was there that he rubbed (lifted) elbows with sports greats along with owner "Toots".
When the fighters were done training in Stillmans Gym for the day, Jackie sent word up to the gym that he was at Toots Shors (or PJ Clarkes too on the eastside). Most of the fighters dressed and went up to see him hold court, my father included. Jake LaMotta was usually there ahead of the crowd. It made for high times.
Old tale - Jackie and Toots Shor bet $1,000 on who could walk around the block in Manhattan faster.Toots thought this would be a lock as Jackie would be bogged down by his fans. Each would go in opposite directions when exiting the bar (surmising to pass each other on the next block up). Both started out with fifty patrons looking on. When Toots turned the block, Jackie backtracked to the bar and awaited his arrival. Toots realized this after spending 15 minutes to get to the next block up and not seeing Jackie. After 25 minutes passed, Toots circled the block and walked into his place with lots of laughter. Jackie handed him his $1,000.

[kikibalt]

Charlie Sawyer
Sawyer was best known for his fight with Art Aragon



division middleweight

country United States
residence Los Angeles, California, United States

won 33 (KO 21) + lost 11 (KO 2) + drawn 4 = 48
rounds boxed 287 KO% 43.75


1960-11-22 Bill Bailey 9-2-0
Portland, Oregon, United States L PTS 8 8

1959-04-29 147½ Gerald Gray 147½ 23-3-2
Sabina Park, Kingston, Jamaica W UD 10 10

1959-01-31 149 Art Aragon 149½ 84-17-6
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States L KO 4 10
~ time: 2:39 | referee: Tommy Hart ~
"In round 4, when he got his quietus, Sawyer was severely punished, finally dropped with a booming left-hook, right-cross combo, and was trying to struggle to his feet when (the referee) counted him out. There was no doubt about THOSE knockdowns." (The Ring, April 1959, page 41) The fight was called into question because Sawyer went down three times in round one, apparently from light blows.

1958-11-24 149 Willie Dillon 146 13-12-3
Midwest Gymnasium, Chicago, Illinois, United States W TKO 7 8

1958-10-27 149 Willie Dillon 147 13-12-2
Midwest Gymnasium, Chicago, Illinois, United States D PTS 8 8

1957-12-19 147 Ramon Buffalo Hernandez 149 10-4-0
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W TKO 7 10
~ time: 1:57 | referee: Jimmy Wilson ~

1957-09-05 146 Mel Ferguson 147 12-4-2
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W TKO 8 12
~ time: 2:14 | referee: George Latka ~
California State Welterweight Title Eliminator
Ferguson was knocked down twice in the 6th round, and once in the 7th round.

1956-09-15 145 Virgil Akins 146½ 38-14-1
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W UD 10 10
~ referee: George Latka 96-88 | judge: Tommy Herman 97-93 | judge: Reggie Gilmore 95-90 ~
Sawyer was knocked down for a nine-count in the 1st round.

1956-06-14 147 Charley Smith 145½ 16-3-0
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States L SD 12 12
~ referee: Dynamite Jackson 113-115 | judge: Tommy Hart 107-110 | judge: Mushy Callahan 115-112 ~
Vacant Calfornia State Welterweight Title Eliminator

1956-04-21 151 Neal Rivers 155¼ 26-3-1
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States L TKO 1 12
~ time: 1:53 | referee: Charley Randolph ~
~ USA California State middleweight title ~
Sawyer was knocked down twice.

1955-11-05 147½ Pat Manzi 147½ 28-10-5
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W UD 10 10
~ referee: Frankie Van 58-52 | judge: Jimmy Wallace 58-52 | judge: Charley Randolph 58-52 ~

1955-08-25 146 Isaac Jenkins 146 19-27-0
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W TKO 6 10
~ time: 0:40 | referee: Dynamite Jackson ~
Jenkins was knocked down once in the 6th round.

1955-07-07 146¾ Rafael Gutierrez 147¼ 29-12-4
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W TKO 8 10
~ time: 0:51 | referee: Reggie Gilmore ~

1955-06-09 147 Alex Amador 146½ 35-15-5
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W TKO 2 10
~ time: 2:15 | referee: Charley Randolph ~
Amador was knocked down twice in the 2nd round.

1955-05-19 145 Ernie Greer 148½ 24-20-11
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W TKO 8 10
~ time: 1:59 | referee: Reggie Gilmore ~
Sawyer was knocked down twice in the bout, Greer once.

1954-12-11 148½ Bobby Morales 153 0-1-0
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W KO 2 10
~ time: 2:11 | referee: Abe Roth ~

1954-08-13 Charley Smith 4-1-0
San Diego, California, United States W KO 9

1954-07-26 149 Maurice Harper 150 20-3-0
Auditorium, Oakland, California, United States L PTS 10 10

1954-04-03 151 Milo Savage 157 29-27-7
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States L UD 10 10
~ referee: Frankie Van ~

1953-12-26 153 Roy Daniels 152 21-14-4
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W TKO 9 10
~ time: 0:25 | referee: Mushy Callahan ~
Daniels was knocked down once in the 9th round.

1953-12-12 Earl Turner 56-34-11
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W KO 6 10

1953-10-10 150 Ray Acosta 146 19-17-7
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W TKO 6 10

1953-06-29 145½ Ray Acosta 147½ 19-17-6
Arena, South Gate, California, United States D PTS 10 10

1953-06-08 147 Boston Wilson 152 5-4-1
Arena, South Gate, California, United States W PTS 6 6

1953-02-28 145½ Joe Gilmer 145 12-8-3
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W PTS 6 6

1952-11-29 146 Leon Spencer 143½ 16-9-0
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W TKO 3 6
Sawyer was knocked down earlier in the bout.

1952-09-20 145¼ Russell Johnson 146
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W KO 3 6
~ referee: Dynamite Jackson ~

1952-05-23 147 Charley Salas 150 112-38-11
Phoenix, Arizona, United States L UD 10 10

1952-05-03 147 Woody Winslow 146 13-19-6
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W UD 6 6

1952-03-29 148½ Oscar Reyes 146½ 19-5-4
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States D PTS 6 6

1951-03-16 147 Hank Davis 150 20-7-5
Phoenix, Arizona, United States W PTS 10 10

1951-03-06 147½ Lou Joseph 152 13-1-3
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States L PTS 6 6
Joseph was knocked down for no-count in the 2nd round.

1951-01-16 149 Lou Joseph 150½ 10-0-3
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W SD 6 6

1951-01-05 149½ Cisco Saenz 145 46-11-9
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W TKO 4 4

1950-12-08 146 Baby Ike 145¾ 25-10-3
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W TKO 4 6
~ referee: Lee Grossman ~
Baby Ike was knocked down once in the 4th round.

1950-10-23 145 Bobby Terrance 144½ 26-22-17
Arena, Ocean Park, California, United States W PTS 4 4

1950-10-17 148½ Bobby Terrance 146½ 26-22-16
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States D PTS 4 4

1950-09-08 145 Oscar Reyes 148 11-2-2
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W PTS 4 4

1950-08-28 144 Lonnie Hudson 147½ 14-10-3
Arena, Ocean Park, California, United States W TKO 4 4

1950-08-15 145 Rudy Martinez 147
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W PTS 4 4

1950-08-11 145 Tello Cruz 137½ 26-15-5
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W TKO 2 4

1950-07-21 143½ Bobby Brewer 143¾ 2-6-2
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W KO 3 4

1950-06-23 145 Joe Kezele 148¼ 17-16-1
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W PTS 4 4

1950-06-02 146 Manuel Mendoza 139 14-4-1
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W KO 3 4

1950-05-29 143 Ray Acosta 145½ 11-12-4
Arena, Ocean Park, California, United States L PTS 4 4

1950-05-22 144 Bobby Terrance 147 16-19-13
Arena, Ocean Park, California, United States L PTS 4 4

1950-05-15 144 Manuel Hampton 141 0-1-0
Arena, Ocean Park, California, United States W TKO 2 4

1950-05-05 143½ Gil Chavez 144 11-1-4
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States L PTS 4 4

[Rick Farris]

Heres something found on the web:
The entertainer Jackie Gleason used to tell this story from his stand-up comedy days. It seems he was playing a joint in New Jersey where he was being unmercifully heckled by a fat, beer guzzling, middle aged, bald jerk smoking a cigar. Finally, Gleason had had enough. He invited the obnoxious patron to step outside. Gleason swore he never saw anyone move so fast to take him up on his offer. The two went out into the street and Gleason next remembered coming to in his dressing room. Gleason had two questions: "What happened?", and "Who was that guy?". What happened was that he was knocked out cold. The guy that did it was Tony Galento.[/quote]

I dont know if that happened, but it sure sounds like Tony Galento to me.
One of Jackie Gleason's hangouts was Toots Shors. It was there that he rubbed (lifted) elbows with sports greats along with owner "Toots".
When the fighters were done training in Stillmans Gym for the day, Jackie sent word up to the gym that he was at Toots Shors (or PJ Clarkes too on the eastside). Most of the fighters dressed and went up to see him hold court, my father included. Jake LaMotta was usually there ahead of the crowd. It made for high times.
Old tale - Jackie and Toots Shor bet $1,000 on who could walk around the block in Manhattan faster.Toots thought this would be a lock as Jackie would be bogged down by his fans. Each would go in opposite directions when exiting the bar (surmising to pass each other on the next block up). Both started out with fifty patrons looking on. When Toots turned the block, Jackie backtracked to the bar and awaited his arrival. Toots realized this after spending 15 minutes to get to the next block up and not seeing Jackie. After 25 minutes passed, Toots circled the block and walked into his place with lots of laughter. Jackie handed him his $1,000.[/quote]

----------------------------[-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charlie . . . That was a great story.
My last trainer, Mel Epstein, gave me a book in 1972. "Toots" was about Toots Shor. He insisted that I read it, which I did.
What a great story. Your father really lived the era, what a life. Toots Shor, the name reminds me of Mel.

[Chuck1052]

I made an error on my last post. It is Oak View, not "Oakview."

- Chuck Johnston

[Chuck1052]

Billy Papke, Jr. fought in quite a few main events in Pasadena, but appeared on undercards at the major boxing venues for the most part. It does seem that he could not get over the hump when facing better fighters, including Gorilla Jones, Frank Rowsey, Jimmy Hanna and Tom Patrick. But he did decently when facing prelim fighters and at least one over-the-hill fighter, Tiger Johnny Cline.

Looking at U.S. Census records, I found that Billy Papke, Jr. had two brothers. During 1930, Billy Papke, Sr. was listed as a manager on a fruit ranch. At the time, the family was living in a home that was valued at fifteen thousand dollars. Based on such information, it appears that the family did quite well on the economic front in 1930.

According to ancestry records on Ancestry.com, Billy Papke, Jr. had a wife and at least one child. In addition, it appears that he joined the army when World War II was almost over.

- Chuck Johnston

[CNorkusJr]

Thanks Rick- That era was filled with those characters and I am thrilled my father told me the stories that go with it.

I know this is West Coast Boxing forum- but I must insist on this book recommendation. I know the readers of this forum loves Boxing as much as I do and if you want to get a great read on boxing history and the places in the New York area and its sporting life from the early 1900 to 1960, Try to purchase "East Side West Side, Tales of New York Sporting Life 1910-1960"
by Lawrence S. Ritter 1998 Hardcover 8 x 11 Published by Total Sports Pub., 445 Park Ave, 19th floor NY,NY 10022
It covers the history of all of New York's Boxing gyms, Boxer's restaurants & Bars they owned, Baseball fields etc etc Lots of great pictures. 210 pages filled with history I know you guys will love. Though listed for $35.00 US
I found mine on the sale shelf of Barnes & Noble for $15.00. Worth the $35.00 if you have to pay it though. Great stories & history of the great eras.

[Rick Farris]

Thanks Rick- That era was filled with those characters and I am thrilled my father told me the stories that go with it.

I know this is West Coast Boxing forum- but I must insist on this book recommendation. I know the readers of this forum loves Boxing as much as I do and if you want to get a great read on boxing history and the places in the New York area and its sporting life from the early 1900 to 1960, Try to purchase "East Side West Side, Tales of New York Sporting Life 1910-1960"
by Lawrence S. Ritter 1998 Hardcover 8 x 11 Published by Total Sports Pub., 445 Park Ave, 19th floor NY,NY 10022
It covers the history of all of New York's Boxing gyms, Boxer's restaurants & Bars they owned, Baseball fields etc etc Lots of great pictures. 210 pages filled with history I know you guys will love. Though listed for $35.00 US
I found mine on the sale shelf of Barnes & Noble for $15.00. Worth the $35.00 if you have to pay it though. Great stories & history of the great eras.

I'll buy it.

[CNorkusJr]

Great You will enjoy it Rick !

[bennie]

Billy Papke and son

A rather poigant photograph. Billy Jr. never went beyond the ranks of a prelim fighter, and Billy murdered his wife and turned the gun on himself in 1936. Very sad.

Is Tom 136 years old?

[bennie]

Freddie Steele admires himself in the mirror, and why not.

[Rick Farris]

Billy Papke, Jr. fought in quite a few main events in Pasadena, but appeared on undercards at the major boxing venues for the most part. It does seem that he could not get over the hump when facing better fighters, including Gorilla Jones, Frank Rowsey, Jimmy Hanna and Tom Patrick. But he did decently when facing prelim fighters and at least one over-the-hill fighter, Tiger Johnny Cline.

Looking at U.S. Census records, I found that Billy Papke, Jr. had two brothers. During 1930, Billy Papke, Sr. was listed as a manager on a fruit ranch. At the time, the family was living in a home that was valued at fifteen thousand dollars. Based on such information, it appears that the family did quite well on the economic front in 1930.

According to ancestry records on Ancestry.com, Billy Papke, Jr. had a wife and at least one child. In addition, it appears that he joined the army when World War II was almost over.

- Chuck Johnston

Thanks for the info on Papke, Chuck.