BoxRec

Busting The Modern Myth! Part 1

By: Monte D. Cox


What makes people believe everything new is better?

Go to a store, everything’s “new and improved”, “now with added,” and blah, blah, blah… Some products have improved taste and texture. Mostly, it’s the same ol’, same ol’.

Filtered cigarettes were supposed to reduce health risks. More smoke and mirrors, but they’ve been the biggest sellers since they were introduced.

Boxing’s just as fallible. Jake Wegner, a boxing historian and researcher, wrote in the IBRO Journal # 82 in June 2004 about the difference between a boxing fan and a boxing historian: ‘A boxing fan is content with just watching fights; a boxing historian needs much more. He needs to get access to the fighters and get inside accounts. Historians ask questions.

‘A fan will read that Willie Pep once won the third round of his fight with Jackie Graves without throwing a punch and believe the myth. A historian will read through the reels of newspaper microfilm from the city where the fight took place, interview spectators when possible and compare newspaper accounts.

‘This is important because history becomes heresy if the facts are not reported and spoken of in an accurate manner.

‘Would it make a difference if you knew that the newspapers of the time never reported a story about Pep winning a round in such a manner and that the fable did not emerge until decades later? Or would it matter that the actual newspaper accounts state that the third round was the most rabid of the night, saying, “A clicker couldn’t count the blows.” Would you still believe the tale? You would if you were a person eager to spread legend and predisposed to accepting stories because they agree with your particular ideas. You wouldn’t if you are a historian. You would want to know the truth and once presented with the facts would accept them as such.

The myth most often foisted today is: Fighters are “bigger, faster, stronger and better” than ever. Do they have superior fundamentals? Do they throw more punches? Are they “new and improved” and better than the legends?

The new breed spouts off about the sport’s “evolution” But the old-time greats were just as skilled in the lower weight classes as the moderns.

A swarmer then is a swarmer today, and they were much better at in-fighting. The slick boxers of that era had an even bigger bag of tricks than the TV darlings. They were better at feinting, trapping, and glove blocking.

What makes a complete fighter? Speed, power, precision punching, combinations, footwork, toughness, durability, endurance, and boxing skill. In the last 60 years of “evolution,” how many fighters have been better overall than “Sugar” Ray Robinson?

There are many myths perpetuated on boxing boards about the great fighters of the past.

“No fighters before 1980 were any good.”

“No fighters before 1970 were any good.”

“No fighters before 1960 were any good.”

“No fighters before WW2 were any good.”

“No fighters before 1930 were any good.”

“They didn’t throw sustained combination punches before 1920.”

“All fighters from the early 20th century were crude, with no semblance of skill.”

“The old-time fights were very slow-paced.”

“Because of superior nutrition and training, today’s fighters are better than those of the past.”

Why not add: The world is flat – all are myths!

Boxing training hasn’t changed much in over 100 years. Jogging, jumping rope, medicine balls, bag work, sparring, and even rowing machines have been around since the late 19th century. While there have been advances in nutrition and supplements, this hasn’t helped today's crop fight as many rounds or as often as those of the past.

One often sees fighters – especially heavyweights now -- tire before the 12th round.

Training hasn’t improved. If anything there are less qualified trainers than ever before. Joe Frazier commented in KO Magazine, March 1999, ‘These guys aren’t trained by real champions, by great ex-fighters.”

The best trainers in history were fighters who knew all the ins-and-outs of the game. Rocky Marciano's trainer, Charley Goldman, claimed to have had over 300 pro fights. Jack Blackburn, Joe Louis’ trainer, was one of the great fighters of the turn of the century and had over 160 pro fights. He fought the likes of Joe Gans, Sam Langford, and Harry Greb.

Ray Arcel, who learned from some of the greats, like Benny Leonard and Whitey Bimstein, noted shortly before his death, ‘Boxing is not really boxing today. It’s theater. Some kids might look good. But they don’t learn their trade. If you take a piece of gold out of the ground, you know its gold. But you have to clean it. You have to polish it. But there aren’t too many guys capable (today) of polishing a fighter.”

The only significant change in the game is fighters box fewer rounds. Styles have remained consistent

By the early 20th century, there were four basic styles: the out-boxers, like Jim Driscoll, Abe Attell, Philadelphia Jack O’Brien, and Benny Leonard; the well-balanced boxer-punchers, like Joe Gans and Sam Langford; swarmers, like Battling Nelson, and crude sluggers like Stanley Ketchel.

Early 20th century boxers were much better infighters than the current breed. This is due, in part, to Muhammad Ali, who rarely went to the body, and amateur rules that don’t give sufficient weight to body blows

Busting The Modern Myth! Part 2

By: Monte D. Cox


Some modern referees will separate fighters as soon as they get close. The John Ruiz-Roy Jones fight is an example: Every time Ruiz got close, the referee broke them, stymieing Ruiz’s ability to deal with the much-faster Jones.

With the disparity in talent, it may not have made any difference.

Boxing historian Michael Hunnicut is an avid collector of vintage fight films. He used to trade films with Jimmy Jacobs of Big Fights Inc. He’s painstakingly researched and studied the punch stats of the earliest fights available on film.

Here are some of the surprising results that will be published in a future issue of the IBRO journal:

The notion that fighters of the early 20th century fought at a slow place and their punch stat numbers were not equal to those of modern fighters can be verifiably proven false. It’s a myth!

Take a look at a well-known modern-era classic: Ray Leonard versus Roberto Duran, June 20, 1980 Montreal, Ca. Duran averaged 90-92 punches for 15 rounds -- a sizzling pace – a classic war.

A recent, more familiar fight, Gatti-Ward three in 2003, Arturo averaged 71 punches a round, according to Compubox, which is still a very fast pace.

In comparison, Henry Armstrong’s Nov 15, 1938 welterweight title defense against Ceferino Garcia, Hammerin’ Hank averaged 70 punches a round, to earn a 15-round decision.

His punch output was very good, but fell short of the torrid pace he set at his peak.

Shane Mosley threw an average of 41 punches a round in his return 12 with Oscar De La Hoya that he won by a shade in 2003. ODLH, who some ringsiders had ahead, averaged 51 a round.

Did past greats fight slower than moderns? Consider the following: One of the most action-packed battles of recent memory was the 2003 Fight-of-the-Year candidate, Vassily Jirov versus -James Toney. Jirov lost a hotly contested nod, but was the busier man, averaging 86 punches for all 12 rounds.

There have been fights in the past just as heated over greater distances.

The Battling Nelson and Ad Wolgast lightweight championship held on Feb 22, 1910 was called “for concentrated viciousness... the most savage bout I have ever seen” wrote W.O. McGeehan in the New York Herald Tribune.

Michael Hunnicut agrees, saying it is “the best fight I have ever seen on film.” They fought to the 42nd round. Nelson, a swarmer, like Ricky Hatton, averaged 85 punches a round. He threw 90 in the 30th round.

They slowed in the 39th. Nelson, the loser, threw 70. These guys threw just as many punches-a-round as one sees in a 12-rounder today, but they did it for over 40!

Here’s another myth buster. The Willie Ritchie-Joe Rivers July 4, 1913 lightweight championship match, featured a whopping 95 punches-a-round from Ritchie -- 3-5 punch combinations – before stopping Rivers in the 11th – clear evidence, he could match the intensity of anybody currently.

The final myth: fighters back-in-the-day didn’t punch as hard or as cleanly, and scored fewer early-round KO’s. Not true.

Three things must be considered. The vintage fighters fought more scheduled rounds, so the average fight lasted longer.

Fights are stopped much more quickly now. The Joe Gans-Battling Nelson fight in Goldfield would have ended in the 15th round under modern conditions. Nelson had been down twice, was bleeding and was careening around the ring, hands down, like a drunken sailor.

No way that fight would have continued today. We don’t allow people to take that kind of a beating.

Now, if a fighter half staggers when asked to walk forward after a knockdown, the fight is stopped. That’s why there weren’t as many early stoppages.

There were plenty of great punchers and boxer-punchers in the early 20th century. It was the norm, not the exception.

-Terry McGovern knocked out 10 men in a total of 17 rounds, the victims included top ranked contenders like Pat Haley, Harry Forbes and bantamweight champion Pedlar Palmer, who was undefeated.

-Joe Gans was one of the greatest fighters of any time. The San Francisco Chronicle, Sep. 28, 1904 wrote of his marvelous speed and skills, “Those who have watched Gans go through his work every day are amazed at his wonderful agility, his speed and his clean hitting ability.”

In his career, Gans scored 70 knockouts that were 10 rounds or less, and 27 knockouts that were three rounds or less, and the victims included hard hitting left-hook artist Dal Hawkins, lightweight champion Frank Erne, and the usually durable Elbows McFadden.

-Bob Fitzsimmons had 47 knockouts in his 54 wins, and although not much more than a middleweight, he knocked out heavyweight contenders Gus Ruhlin in six, Peter Maher in one, and Tom Sharkey, whom some old-timers compared favorably to Rocky Marciano, in two rounds.

-Stanley Ketchel was a murderous puncher, who scored 50 knockouts in his 54 wins, 19 were three rounds or less, and the victims included top men, like Mike “Twin” Sullivan and Philadelphia Jack O’Brien.

- Sam Langford had more knockouts than Mike Tyson and George Foreman combined. His 138 career knockouts (research by historian Tim Leone) are second only to Archie Moore on the all-time list.

These guys could punch cleanly, and with great fundamental mechanics. One can’t score so many knockouts otherwise.

To under-estimate them because they weren’t on HBO or ESPN does them a disservice. To say men are are “better” because its now, instead of then, doesn’t hold water. It’s a myth!

I recently watched a very good technician Winky Wright struggle with Sam Solimon. Soliman looked goofy on modern zoom-lensed HBO cameras. Can you imagine how funny he'd look filmed with 1910 technology? Don't look at the speed of those hand cranked films and get mislead. And most of those guys were much better at infighting than the tough Aussie, who showed how guys with amazing stamina like toughman Battling Nelson had such success.

Legendary fighters could compete with the moderns. They could fight at just as fast a pace for more rounds. This is fact.

On any playing field, the legendary fighters are the equal, or better, than modern ones. Just keep thinking Ray Robinson.
__________________

Been out of town and just noticed on here that Tony was injured in an accident.
It sounds like hes going to be ok though. Thank God. All the best and get well soon Tiger.

bennie wrote:


Lew Tendler

Good photo of Tendler.. he looks hard as a rock

Panzerfaust wrote:

bennie wrote:


Lew Tendler

Good photo of Tendler.. he looks hard as a rock

I believe Lew is one of the first southpaws ever to fight for a world title.

Its a beautiful morning in AZ.....

kikibalt wrote:Its a beautiful morning in AZ.....

Made all the better just knowing your son is alright (relatively speaking). I can sense the relief.

Randy

The Tiger

kikibalt wrote:To all the fellows with Cawcb" The Tiger Baltazar is out of commision, But I am going to be alright" First of all I want to thank My Brother Bobby And His Family who have been My saving Grace. Thank you Bobby and your familiy. I love you all so much. Now guys from the cawcb" God bless you and thank you for your best wishes and just so you know that it will take alot more then a car or truck to keep the tiger down. but i hope inever go through this ever again. it really does hurt! Thank you once again and God bless you Tony The Tiger Baltazar.

Tony, I hope one day to shake your hand, have been a fan of yours since I first saw you fight vs Howard Davis, and thankfully I also have gotten to know your dad through CAWCB, get well soon, sincerely Paul Zappulla.

kikibalt wrote:Its a beautiful morning in AZ.....

The Valley of the Sun . . .


I remember this time of year in Phoenix, after the heat of summer had subsided.
It was my favorite time of year in AZ.
With the Baltazar's in the Valley of the Sun, it brings back memories of my living there a few years back.

I'd come to Phoenix in early 1999. I didn't expect to stay three years, but I was at a crossroads in life and living day-to-day.
I didn't know anybody in Arizona, so on my first Sunday in town I drive from where I was staying in Chandler to dowtown Phoenix.
I was looking for something familiar, something I could relate to. I was 47-years-old, and I was lost.
I actually remember saying a little prayer as I drove thru the State Capitol. "Dear Lord, please help me find a boxing gym . . ."
Less than a minute after I prayed, my prayer was answered. This is a true story.

As I drive down Van Buren Street, near 18th Ave. I see an old brick building standing by itself.
There was a big sign hanging above the front door, "The Madison Square Garden Boxing Gym'.
It was Sunday morning and there weren't many people on the street, just one car parked in the lot next to the gym.
I drove past the building and then made a quick U-turn into the parking lot.
I was excited when I stepped out of my car. I didn't expect there would be anybody in the gym, but I'd found what I was looking for.

The building had been a boxing gym for years, likely one of the oldest establishments in the area.
Although I hadn't seen the inside of the gym, something gave the feel of an "old school" boxing gym.
I firgured I'd go in, introduce myself, and offer to help work with their boxers in exchange for a place to workout.
I knew what to do in a boxing gym, I was at home, even if I didn't know the people, I felt in a comfortable place.

As I approached the front door it suddenly opened and a heavy set man stepped out, locked the door, and turned to leave.
I called out to the man as he walked toward his car in the lot.
"Hey, do you work here?" I asked.

The man, a stocky Latino with a full head of silver hair and a beard, about sixty-years old, turned to face me.
He looked me up and down and then answered, "Yes. This is my gym." He reminded me of my first trainer, Manuel Diaz.
I extended my hand, "Hi, I'm Rick Farris. I used to box professionally out of Los Angeles."
The man shook my hand and introduced himself as Richard Rodriguez. "I can tell you were a boxer by the way you walk."
I didn't know how to take that, I didn't know you could spot a boxer by his walk, but I took that as a compliment.

"What can I do for you?" Rodriguez asked.
I told him that I was looking for a place to workout. That I'd be willing to help him work with his boxers, amateurs or pros, in exchange for a place to hit the bags, etc. Without blinking an eye, Richard Rodriguez answered, "OK. Be here tomorrow at 4pm."

The nex day I showed up before 4pm. I came in workout gear but I was focused on working with the boxers.
When I stepped inside the gym for the first time I truly felt I was in the right place. I was.
Richard immediaty led me over to a 12-year-old kid, "This is Juan, today is his first day. Teach him." He then just walked away.

I looked at the skinny 12-year-old, a good looking kid whose head came up to my shoulders.
It was his first day in the gym and Richard Rodriguez had turned him over to my care.
The boy's father, Rogelio, walked over to me and introduced himself. I could smell alcohol on his breath.
I could tell the man loved his son, and he loved boxing. He and I began to talk boxing, he told me he had once lived in L.A.
After ten minutes of talk about L.A. boxing, Rogelio was confident his son was in good hands. I wanted to prove him right.

I took Juan up into the ring and we started with some talk. "Are you right or left-handed?
I then put him thru exact same paces that Johnny Flores had put me thru more than three decades earlier.
The kid was smart, repsectful, and I would soon learn, blessed with a pair of heavy hands.
Some guys are "born punchers". Everybody who has boxed learns this.
It has a lot to do with technique, timing, etc. but real punchers are born that way.

When we finished, Juan's dad and I agreed to meet the next day at the same time.
I felt good, I could now give back some of the things that a few special men had shared with me.
This is what I owed boxing, what I owed myself.

As I left the gym that day I stopped into Rodriguez office in the front of the gym.
"How'd he do?" Rodriguez asked.
"He did good. I like that kid, he's going to be a good of he continues." I believed that.

As I sat talking with Rodriguez, he introduced me to his youngest son, Ricky Ricardo Rodriguez, who was also a trainer. Ricky was about ten years younger than me. Like his father, he so reminded me of the men that worked with kids back when I was starting out. I thought of Johnny Flores, Frank Baltazar, Jake Horn, and so on. Something told me I was in the right place. For what? I don't know, but I belonged there.

Sitting in front of Richard's desk I looked at all the boxing memorabelia hanging on the walls, photos, gloves, posters. I looked over some ancient posters of bouts that had taken place in Phoenix during the fifties, featuring boxers such as Don Fullmer, Manny Elias and . . . wait a minute, Tony "The Tiger" Baltazar!

Right behind Rodriguez's desk was a poster advertising a main event that had taken place about five years previous in Phoenix . . . Tony "The Tiger" Baltazar vs. Jose Roberto Lopez.

When I saw the name Tony Baltazar, I got excited and told Richard that I knew the enitre Baltazar family in L.A.
Richard smiled and remembered the fight featured on the poster, "Oh yeah, he flattened Lopez in less a round. Big left hook"

When I asked Richard if he knew Tony, his son Ricky Ricardo spoke up, "I know Tony. He used to train with Danny Carbajal at the 16th St. Gym in the barrio".

As I left the gym that day I thanked God for answering my prayers, and doing so as quickly and magicaly has possible.
I felt an instant friendship with the Rodriguez, and to assure me I was in the right place, had been placed before an old boxing poster that connected me with my beginning days in boxing.

In due course, I'll continue this memory. Reading about the Baltazar's in Phoenix, brought it to mind.


-Rick Farris

Thanks for that great post, Rick ....I got on my blog....

Great stuff Rick.A great boxing gym and one with great people in it is something that just feels right.
There arent too many things in this world that capture that emotion.Its something special that you guys out there have and its kept this Chicago guy interested(more than interested)and has created friendship.

Expug wrote:Great stuff Rick.A great boxing gym and one with great people in it is something that just feels right.
There arent too many things in this world that capture that emotion.Its something special that you guys out there have and its kept this Chicago guy interested(more than interested)and has created friendship.

Brian . . . It was once great here in Los Angeles, especially in the years before I was born.
What I experienced during my time was great, something still alive from the past.
By the time I left L.A. for AZ, things were different. I was no longer in touch with boxing in L.A. It no longer existed.
In Phoenix, I found this gym. It felt like old LA gyms. I didn't mention that this was where Mike Tyson was training.
Tyson had just been released from his last prison sentence, and I was in Richard's office the day they first weighed him.
Mike had stopped by the gym, along with Tommy Brooks, Stacey McKinley and his advisor, Shelly Finkle.
I'd never seen Mike Tyson in person before, man, he was short and fat! In Rodriguez' office he weighed 298lbs.!!!
After a couple weeks in a fat farm, Mike began training at Madison for his fight with Orlin Norris.
Mike liked Madison. Floyd Mayweather Jr. also used it, as did Oscar DLH.
In the 50's, Madison Gym also catered to wrestlers.
In Phoenix, they also had an arena called Madison Square Garden, where they'd promote boxing & wrestling in days gone by.
That is now a warehouse.

Yeah Brian, you'd have liked this place.

The Tiger & Kalvin

Tony with his two beautiful daughters, Chanelle & Nakojua

kikibalt wrote:

The Tiger & Kalvin

He's going to be alright.

The Valley of the Sun (Part-2) . . .


The Madison Gym was one of several boxing in the central Phoenix area. It was located about a block from the State Capitol.
Less than a couple miles away, an abandoned church had been converted into a boxing gym by former world champ Michael Carbajal.
Michael Carbajal's "16th Street Gym" the Phoenix barrio located directly across the street from where the former Olympic & World Champion had grown up in the Phoenix barrio. Michael's older brother, Danny, ran the gym. I heard that it has been closed.

Surprisingly, the majority of gyms in the Phoenix area are backyard gyms.
During my free time, I'd drive thru the barrios, and occasionally find a sign tacked up to a palm tree.
"Gonzalez Boxing Club" read one sign I found on a cul-de-sac in South Phoenix.

I parked, walked around to the back of the house, came upon a make-shift boxing ring, heavy bags, etc.
A dozen kids shadow boxed, punched bags, skipped rope. All of them were watched over by a middle-aged coach, a father.
I stood and watched, he invited me step into the yard. I introduced myself, we talked, and I wrote a story about his club for the CBZ.

That's the way it is. Lots of miles seperate boxers from gyms in Arizona.
Madison Gym owner, Richard Rodriguez, told me he and his brother Al, began in a backyard gym in Eloy.

kikibalt wrote:

Tony with his two beautiful daughters, Chanelle & Nakojua

Frank, I hope Tony has a shotgun, he is gonna need one to keep the guys away, they are gorgeous.

Paul, I don't think Tony needs a shotgun, he still has his left hook....

Jimmy Braddock visits Jersey Joe Walcott, in training for his second fight with Marciano.

kikibalt wrote:Paul, I don't think Tony needs a shotgun, he still has his left hook....

Haha! I could see that coming from a mile away...I have just enough boxing stuff out around the house for my two daughters would be suitors to get a hint...
Frank, glad to see Tony is doing better, I'm sure the accident gave you and the rest of the family quite a scare, we're all pulling for his speedy recovery.
Bruce

Bobbin & Weavin wrote:

kikibalt wrote:Paul, I don't think Tony needs a shotgun, he still has his left hook....

Haha! I could see that coming from a mile away...I have just enough boxing stuff out around the house for my two daughters would be suitors to get a hint...
Frank, glad to see Tony is doing better, I'm sure the accident gave you and the rest of the family quite a scare, we're all pulling for his speedy recovery.
Bruce

Ya! daughters!, I'm so glad that we only had one, she, Linda, been the oldest of the kids.

Thanks Bruce, we got a scare alright, but Tony will be okay in due time.

kikibalt wrote:

Bobbin & Weavin wrote:

kikibalt wrote:Paul, I don't think Tony needs a shotgun, he still has his left hook....

Haha! I could see that coming from a mile away...I have just enough boxing stuff out around the house for my two daughters would be suitors to get a hint...
Frank, glad to see Tony is doing better, I'm sure the accident gave you and the rest of the family quite a scare, we're all pulling for his speedy recovery.
Bruce

Ya! daughters!, I'm so glad that we only had one, she, Linda, been the oldest of the kids.

Thanks Bruce, we got a scare alright, but Tony will be okay in due time.

Beautiful granddaughters Frank. I raised four girls. That's why I always look tired!

Bruce, good to see you on the thread.

Randy

You post great pictures Bennie. Many I never seen before and they are not the usual standard shots,but more intimate, personal perspectives of the fighters. Much appreciated by me and the rest of the gang here at CWCB.
You are and have been a great source for these shots ! Thanks.

The CAWCB stream should hit 30,000 posts this weekend that's some achievement for you guys well done, long may it continue