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Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 19:14
by Giancarlo
yancey wrote:"Il Duce, What you write is factual
To people who live in an alternate reality.

Like you, Nance.

How many times have you posted that garbage that Foreman only beat Frazier because he cheated?

I think you actually believe it; you daft old bugger!

:lol:

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 20:09
by yancey
Giancarlo wrote:
yancey wrote:"Il Duce, What you write is factual
To people who live in an alternate reality.

Like you, Nance.

How many times have you posted that garbage that Foreman only beat Frazier because he cheated?

I think you actually believe it; you daft old bugger!

:lol:

Attn Mods....

Please check to see if Loaded Gloves and Penal Colony Puke are from the same IP address.

Thank you.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 21:20
by Giancarlo
yancey wrote:
Giancarlo wrote:
yancey wrote:"Il Duce, What you write is factual
To people who live in an alternate reality.

Like you, Nance.

How many times have you posted that garbage that Foreman only beat Frazier because he cheated?

I think you actually believe it; you daft old bugger!

:lol:

Attn Mods....

Please check to see if Loaded Gloves and Penal Colony Puke are from the same IP address.

Thank you.

Hey Nance, I don't believe that you and the Duchess and angry old beaujerk are just one nutter with three accounts.

I subscribe to the theory that you are three nutters who the internet has allowed to meet up in cyber space to spout nonsense.

It must be fantastic for lonely old shut-ins like you three to 'communicate' with like-minded individuals. Very therapeutic I would think.

Keep taking the pills.

:TU:

Jesus Bless.

:lol:

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 21:27
by ThatOne
There is an undue amount of acrimony in this thread.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 21:45
by Giancarlo
ThatOne wrote:There is an undue amount of acrimony in this thread.
Have you seen an Il Duce one that doesn't end up that way?

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 21:48
by ThatOne
Giancarlo wrote:
ThatOne wrote:There is an undue amount of acrimony in this thread.
Have you seen an Il Duce one that doesn't end up that way?
Reminds me of the granner but Duce seems to have a sense of humor.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 21:50
by ThatOne
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about Joe Frazier as the first anniversary of his death (November 7, 2011) approaches.

I met Joe at the Sahara Hotel in Las Vegas on December 1, 1988. I’d just signed a contract to become Muhammad Ali’s official biographer. Two days of taping were underway for a documentary entitled Champions Forever that featured Ali, Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, and Larry Holmes. I was there to conduct interviews for my book.

On the first morning, I sat at length with Foreman; the pre-lean-mean-grilling-machine model. George was twenty months into a comeback that was widely regarded as a joke. Six more years would pass before he knocked out Michael Moorer to regain the heavyweight throne.

“There was a time in my life when I was sort of unfriendly,” George told me. “Zaire was part of that period. I was going to knock Ali’s block off, and the thought of doing it didn’t bother me at all. After the fight, for a while I was bitter. I had all sorts of excuses. The ring ropes were loose. The referee counted too fast. The cut hurt my training. I was drugged. I should have just said the best man won, but I’d never lost before so I didn’t know how to lose. I fought that fight over in my head a thousand times. Then, finally, I realized I’d lost to a great champion; probably the greatest of all time. Now I’m just proud to be part of the Ali legend. If people mention my name with his from time to time, that’s enough for me. That, and I hope Muhammad likes me, because I like him. I like him a lot.”


Then I moved on to Ken Norton, who shared a poignant memory.

“When it counted most,” Norton reminisced, “Ali was there for me. In 1986, I was in a bad car accident. I was unconscious for I don’t know how long. My right side was paralyzed; my skull was fractured; I had a broken leg, a broken jaw. The doctors said I might never walk again. For a while, they thought I might not ever even be able to talk. I don’t remember much about my first few months in the hospital. But one thing I do remember is, after I was hurt, Ali was one of the first people to visit me. At that point, I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to live or die. That’s how bad I was hurt. Like I said, there’s a lot I don’t remember. But I remember looking up, and there was this crazy man standing by my bed. It was Ali, and he was doing magic tricks for me. He made a handkerchief disappear; he levitated. I said to myself, if he does one more awful trick, I’m gonna get well just so I can kill him. But Ali was there, and his being there helped me. So I don’t want to be remembered as the man who broke Muhammad Ali’s jaw. I just want to be remembered as a man who fought three close competitive fights with Ali and became his friend when the fighting was over.”

Larry Holmes held out for cash, so our conversation was short: “I’m proud I learned my craft from Ali,” Larry said. “I’m prouder of sparring with him when he was young than I am of beating him when he was old.”

End of conversation.

That left Joe.

Frazier wouldn’t talk with me because I was “Ali’s man.” But at an evening party after the second day of taping, Joe approached me. He’d been drinking. And the vile spewed out:

“I hated Ali. God might not like me talking that way, but it’s in my heart. First two fights, he tried to make me a white man. Then he tried to make me a person. How would you like it if your kids came home from school crying because everyone was calling their daddy a gorilla? God made us all the way we are. He made us the way we talk and look. And the way I feel, I’d like to fight Ali-Clay-whatever-his-name-is again tomorrow. Twenty years, I’ve been fighting Ali, and I still want to take him apart piece by piece and send him back to Jesus.”

Joe saw that I was writing down every word. This was a message he wanted the world to hear.

“I didn’t ask no favors of him, and he didn’t ask none of me. He shook me in Manila; he won. But I sent him home worse than he came. Look at him now. He’s damaged goods. I know it; you know it. Everyone knows it; they just don’t want to say. He was always making fun of me. I’m the dummy; I’m the one getting hit in the head. Tell me now; him or me, which one talks worse now? He can’t talk no more, and he still tries to make noise. He still wants you to think he’s the greatest, and he ain’t. I don’t care how the world looks at him. I see him different, and I know him better than anyone. Manila really don’t matter no more. He’s finished, and I’m still here.”

Twenty-one months later, when I finished writing Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times, I journeyed to Ali’s home in Berrian Springs, Michigan. Lonnie Ali (Muhammad’s wife), Howard Bingham (Ali’s longtime friend and personal photographer), and I spent a week reading every word of the manuscript aloud. By agreement, there would be no censorship. Our purpose in reading was to ensure the factually accuracy of the book.

In due course, Lonnie read Frazier’s quote aloud.

There was a silent moment.

"Did you hear that, Muhammad?" Lonnie asked.

Ali nodded.

"How do you feel, knowing that hundreds of thousands of people will read that?”

"It's what he said," Muhammad answered.

Ali’s thoughts ended that chapter of the book.

“I’m sorry Joe Frazier is mad at me. I’m sorry I hurt him. Joe Frazier is a good man. I couldn’t have done what I did without him, and he couldn’t have done what he did without me. And if God ever calls me to a holy war, I want Joe Frazier fighting beside me.”

On the final day of our reading, Muhammad, Lonnie, Howard, and I signed a pair of boxing gloves to commemorate the experience. I took one of the gloves home with me. Howard took the other.

The following spring, I was in Philadelphia for a black-tie gala celebrating the twentieth anniversary of the historic first fight between Ali and Frazier. This was Joe’s night. It was a fight he’d won. But his hatred for all things Ali was palpable.

Early in the evening, Howard suggested that I pose for a photo with Muhammad and Joe. I stood between them. Joe wrapped his arm around my waist in what I thought was a gesture of friendship. Then, just as Howard snapped the photo, Joe dug his fingers into the flesh beneath my ribs.

It hurt like hell.

I tried to pry his hand away.

You try prying Joe Frazier’s hand away.

When Joe was satisfied that he’d inflicted sufficient pain, he smirked at me and walked off.

Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times was published in June 1991. Joe decided that I’d treated him fairly. In the years that followed, when our paths crossed, he was warm and friendly. A ritual greeting evolved between us.

Joe would smile and say, “Hey! How’s my Jewish friend?”

I’d smile and say, “Hey! How’s my Baptist friend?”

Fast-forward to January 7, 2005. Joe was in my home. We were eating ice cream in the kitchen.

Three boxing gloves were hanging on the wall. The first two were worn by Billy Costello in his victorious championship fight against Saoul Mamby. That fight has special meaning to me. It’s the subject of the climactic chapter in The Black Lights, my first book about boxing.

The other glove bore the legend:

Muhammad Ali

Lonnie Ali

Howard L. Bingham

Thomas Hauser

9/10 - 9/17/90

Joe asked about the gloves. I explained their provenance. Then he said something that surprised me.

“Do you remember that time I gave you the claw?”

“I remember,” I said grimly.

“I’m sorry, man. I apologize.”

That was Joe Frazier. He remembered every hurt that anyone ever inflicted upon him. With regard to Ali, he carried those hurts like broken glass in his stomach for his entire life.

But Joe also remembered the hurts he’d inflicted on other people. And if he felt he’d done wrong, given time he would try to right the situation.

There’s now a fourth glove hanging on the wall of my kitchen. It bears the inscription:

Tom, to my man

Right on

Joe Frazier


http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/art ... azier.html

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:01
by p4p1
inb4 making fun of Ali's condition was OK because he called Frazier a gorilla.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:06
by Giancarlo
Image

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:08
by Giancarlo
Image

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:09
by Giancarlo
Image

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:13
by ThatOne
p4p1 wrote:inb4 making fun of Ali's condition was OK because he called Frazier a gorilla.

That's not really why I posted that. I thought his relationship with Tom Hauser was interesting.

___________________________

One of the joys in covering a big fight is that I never know what “extras” fight night will bring. On October 18, 2008, I was in the press room at Boardwark Hall in Atlantic City readying for Kelly Pavlik vs. Bernard Hopkins when Joe Frazier came in.

There was a time when Frazier regarded me as an adversary. I was Muhammad Ali’s biographer and thus “Ali’s man.” But in recent years, Joe and I have developed a friendship of our own.

Joe and I sat at a table in the press room and talked for an hour. “How the heavyweights got the way they are now, I couldn’t tell you,” he lamented. “But it’s sad. There’s one world. How can there be four heavyweight champions of the world? When I fought, people wouldn’t put up with two heavyweight champions. There was me and Jimmy Ellis; so we fought and there was one. Then Ali came back and we fought and there was one. Boxing is the best sport in the world and they messed it up.”

Joe talked fondly of George Foreman. “Big George beat up on me two times,” he said. “Someday, I’m gonna walk over to him, kiss him on the cheek, slip to the side, and hit him with the hook . . . Not really,” he added. “George is a good man. He came from a place that’s just as hard as the place I came from. And he could fight.”

Then Joe uttered a thought that isn’t often heard from him. “Muhammad could fight too.”

I thought back to Hugh McIlvanney’s words: "Mentioning nobility in connection with boxing is chancy, but exposure to men like Joe Frazier encourages such boldness."

Now Joe was rooted in the past. “That night at Madison Square Garden,” he reminisced. “Fifteenth round when I put Ali down. A fight like that. I stood where no one else ever stood.”

The conversation sequed to Joe’s childhood. “I grew up fast,” he recalled. “I became a man early, so there wasn’t much time for games. But I played a little baseball around the time I was twelve, thirteen years old. My position was catcher. I was always afraid the ball would tip off the bat, come up fast, and hit me in the face. I liked the hitting part of the game more.”

And we talked about the music we’d listened to when we were young. Elvis Presley, Little Richard, the Motown revolution.

“Don’t forget Fats Domino,” Joe offered. And he began to sing.

“I found my thrill . . . on Blueberry Hill . . .”

I joined in.

“On Blueberry Hill . . . when I found you . . .”

Neither of us knew all the words. But we muddled through the wind in the willow, love’s sweet melody, and all of those vows we made that were never to be.

In everyone’s life, there are moments that have no meaning to the world at large but are special to the person who experienced them. I’ll always smile when I think back on sitting with Joe Frazier and singing Blueberry Hill.


http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/art ... auser.html

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:13
by Giancarlo
Image

In defence eh?

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:14
by ThatOne
Giancarlo wrote:Image
What is the provenance of that photo?

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:19
by Giancarlo
ThatOne wrote:
Giancarlo wrote:Image
What is the provenance of that photo?
I think it might be photo-shopped because there doesn't seem to be the dislike and acrimony that the duchess uses to justify her existence.

They seem like a couple of guys who are comfortable with each other's foibles.

Who'd have thought it?

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:28
by ThatOne
Giancarlo wrote:
ThatOne wrote:
Giancarlo wrote:Image
What is the provenance of that photo?
I think it might be photo-shopped because there doesn't seem to be the dislike and acrimony that the duchess uses to justify her existence.

They seem like a couple of guys who are comfortable with each other's foibles.

Who'd have thought it?
You can not discuss the relationship between the two of them without discussing the politics of the time but even with that caveat most people have moved past it, ergo:

Image

Not only is John McCain a conservative Republican but he did spend five years in the Hanoi Hilton.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:36
by p4p1
ThatOne wrote:
p4p1 wrote:inb4 making fun of Ali's condition was OK because he called Frazier a gorilla.

That's not really why I posted that. I thought his relationship with Tom Hauser was interesting.

___________________________

One of the joys in covering a big fight is that I never know what “extras” fight night will bring. On October 18, 2008, I was in the press room at Boardwark Hall in Atlantic City readying for Kelly Pavlik vs. Bernard Hopkins when Joe Frazier came in.

There was a time when Frazier regarded me as an adversary. I was Muhammad Ali’s biographer and thus “Ali’s man.” But in recent years, Joe and I have developed a friendship of our own.

Joe and I sat at a table in the press room and talked for an hour. “How the heavyweights got the way they are now, I couldn’t tell you,” he lamented. “But it’s sad. There’s one world. How can there be four heavyweight champions of the world? When I fought, people wouldn’t put up with two heavyweight champions. There was me and Jimmy Ellis; so we fought and there was one. Then Ali came back and we fought and there was one. Boxing is the best sport in the world and they messed it up.”

Joe talked fondly of George Foreman. “Big George beat up on me two times,” he said. “Someday, I’m gonna walk over to him, kiss him on the cheek, slip to the side, and hit him with the hook . . . Not really,” he added. “George is a good man. He came from a place that’s just as hard as the place I came from. And he could fight.”

Then Joe uttered a thought that isn’t often heard from him. “Muhammad could fight too.”

I thought back to Hugh McIlvanney’s words: "Mentioning nobility in connection with boxing is chancy, but exposure to men like Joe Frazier encourages such boldness."

Now Joe was rooted in the past. “That night at Madison Square Garden,” he reminisced. “Fifteenth round when I put Ali down. A fight like that. I stood where no one else ever stood.”

The conversation sequed to Joe’s childhood. “I grew up fast,” he recalled. “I became a man early, so there wasn’t much time for games. But I played a little baseball around the time I was twelve, thirteen years old. My position was catcher. I was always afraid the ball would tip off the bat, come up fast, and hit me in the face. I liked the hitting part of the game more.”

And we talked about the music we’d listened to when we were young. Elvis Presley, Little Richard, the Motown revolution.

“Don’t forget Fats Domino,” Joe offered. And he began to sing.

“I found my thrill . . . on Blueberry Hill . . .”

I joined in.

“On Blueberry Hill . . . when I found you . . .”

Neither of us knew all the words. But we muddled through the wind in the willow, love’s sweet melody, and all of those vows we made that were never to be.

In everyone’s life, there are moments that have no meaning to the world at large but are special to the person who experienced them. I’ll always smile when I think back on sitting with Joe Frazier and singing Blueberry Hill.


http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/art ... auser.html
I am sure you didn't, But I am also sure a few in this thread will try to justify speaking of someone like that.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:38
by Giancarlo
ThatOne wrote: You can not discuss the relationship between the two of them without discussing the politics of the time but even with that caveat most people have moved past it
There are still a few dinosaurs in here who yearn for the 'good old days' when Jim Crow laws kept people in 'their place'.

The internet has given a virtual soapbox to all these nutters.

What I don't understand is why they peddle their nonsense in a forum that has no more than a couple of dozen active posters.

The Duchess is on here 24/7.

Surely his time would be more 'productive' preaching his message of hate on forums that cater for that sort of stuff?

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 22:45
by ThatOne
I don't see why it's not possible to elevate your favorite boxer or boxers without denigrating other boxer or boxers.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 23:03
by Giancarlo
Il Duce wrote:Very Odd,

Riddle Me This,

Why does Giancarlo complain about my thread, yet post '9' responses to it within 1-Hour.

Kind of like that Australian Midget-Dwarf that complains about smelling 'foul-odor' all the time,
then rides a 'crowded' Elevator all day long with a smile.
You been having a nap Duchess?

Hey, did you like those photos?

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 23:19
by Giancarlo
Il Duce wrote:
Giancarlo wrote:
Il Duce wrote:Very Odd,

Riddle Me This,

Why does Giancarlo complain about my thread, yet post '9' responses to it within 1-Hour.

Kind of like that Australian Midget-Dwarf that complains about smelling 'foul-odor' all the time,
then rides a 'crowded' Elevator all day long with a smile.
You been having a nap Duchess?

Hey, did you like those photos?
They are very nice........That Muhammad Ali chap, looks like a very nice man.
All 3 of them look like nice men.

The sort of men who excelled in the hardest sport of all.

Anyway, now that is sorted, I guess it's back to you and the other 2 nutters to start ranting again.

Over to you, Duchess.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 10 Oct 2013, 00:10
by Giancarlo
Il Duce wrote:Hardest Sport,

I always though 'Javelin Catching' was the most difficult.
Your jokes are crap, Duchess.

Stick to posting over and over and over again what you imagine to be 'evidence' that Ali was a very bad fellow.

Actually, do you have any sort of life? Wife, children, friends (Nancey and beaujerk don't count), pet gold fish? It's quite hard to imagine you interacting with other living creatures outside of cyber space...

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 10 Oct 2013, 10:37
by yancey
Giancarlo wrote:
ThatOne wrote: You can not discuss the relationship between the two of them without discussing the politics of the time but even with that caveat most people have moved past it
There are still a few dinosaurs in here who yearn for the 'good old days' when Jim Crow laws kept people in 'their place'.

The internet has given a virtual soapbox to all these nutters.

What I don't understand is why they peddle their nonsense in a forum that has no more than a couple of dozen active posters.

The Duchess is on here 24/7.

Surely his time would be more 'productive' preaching his message of hate on forums that cater for that sort of stuff?

Giancarlo,

Joking/insults aside, you are not as perceptive as you think you are.

My problem with Ali has not one thing to do with race. I think the same with the other Ali critics.

My problem with Ali is how he shamefully belittled his opponents, mainly my favorites Frazier followed by Patterson, but others as well.

I also detested how he try to steal from Frazier's honest victory in the FOTC by mounting a drumbeat that he (Ali) had actually won the fight and had been cheated by "The Man". Very, very unsporting to detract from Frazier's win. I also think Duce is right in that a real mean streak existed there.

As for this forum, yes, yes, of course it draws next to nothing in participation. I like to use it because I've gotten accustomed to a few of the characters here. (even a fellow like you)

btw, I'm quite successful in my personal and professional life. I happen to have a profession where I'm on the internet a good bit and am able to check things out here during down time. I loved the heavyweight era from the '60s and '70s and like to discuss it here.

I really wish you would come correct and not always attribute a racial angle to things.

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 10 Oct 2013, 14:31
by yancey
Il Duce wrote:Giancarlo, cannot post anything but 'sarcasm'.

It's not in his 'mental makeup' to post anything of substance.

Word has it, is that he's from the Northern Territory, a 'Top Ender'.

A vicious sort, who are more likely to 'scavenge' off of dead carcasses,
than actually running them down while alive.

In other words, a Penal Colony Punk.

:D

Re: Cassius Clay, "I'm Fighting Uncle Tom Patterson'

Posted: 10 Oct 2013, 15:23
by BoxBuzz
any chance of everyone smoking the peace pipe?

Or engaging in empirical positivery?

Or....perhaps practicing some old corny "if you aint got somethin' nice to say you ain't sayin' nothin'isms?"