1970-1977 Middleweight Division The Monzon Era

[scorpio83]

I always felt that 'Bad Bennie' would have been a great Light-Middleweight. Bennie was really a small 5' 8" Middleweight.

Bennie probably could have held the 154 lb. Title anywhere from {1966 thru 1973} without a problem, and still challenged
for the Middleweight Championship a few times.

How about a Bennie Briscoe vs. Jose Napoles {anywhere from 1970 thru 1973} for the Light-Middleweight Championship.

I disagreed Il Duce. If you say that Bennie was a small middleweight standing at 5'8", then Harry Greb, Tony Zale, Marcel Cerdan, Jake La Motta, Gene Fullmer and Dick Tiger were small middleweights as well because they stood at the same height as Briscoe.

Most of the fans including me acknowledged "Bad" Bennie as an accomplishment middleweight who fought nearly everybody in his era and duck no one. Bennie outgrew the junior middleweight division and was more comfortable in the middleweight division. He might have weight problems struggling to make the junior middleweight limit in the 60s and would be weight drained in 1973. Also, he might have not being interested in the 154 lb title. I respect your opinion and I will not change your opinion. Thanks.

[scorpio83]

I disagreed Il Duce. If you say that Bennie was a small middleweight standing at 5'8", then Harry Greb, Tony Zale, Marcel Cerdan, Jake La Motta, Gene Fullmer and Dick Tiger were small middleweights as well because they stood at the same height as Briscoe.

Most of the fans including me acknowledged "Bad" Bennie as an accomplishment middleweight who fought nearly everybody in his era and duck no one. Bennie outgrew the junior middleweight division and was more comfortable in the middleweight division. He might have weight problems struggling to make the junior middleweight limit in the 60s and would be weight drained in 1973. Also, he might have not being interested in the 154 lb title. I respect your opinion and I will not change your opinion. Thanks.

[BoxBuzz]

Mr. Scorpio

I tend to disagree here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtMV44yoXZ0&feature=kp

[scorpio83]

Thanks Il Duce for the debate whether if "Bad" Bennie Briscoe was a great uncrowned middleweight champion or not. However, I agree with you that Emile Griffith would have been a great junior middleweight champion and would whip Kim, Mazzinghi, Wajima and other great junior middleweights in his time.

[scorpio83]

Il Duce, I would please like to know how good Tony Licata was like I always ask?

[scorpio83]

How good was Licata's left jab, left hook, right hand, power punch even though he didn't have a big punch, body attack, strength, stamina, durability, ring general, defense and chin?

[BoxBuzz]

I do appreciate this thread. And I have very little that I have found to counter your info thus far.

Though I am hesitant to simply accept it all. I do follow up and verify what I can...and so far so good.


Your objective "goodness" scale is always a hoot. Some really disrespected Licata.....and thought he had no business in there with Monzon. Despite his unique record (equal to Monzon's ) of defeating every man he ever faced...hmm maybe there was a draw that he did not settle....so let's say that he either beat or fought to a draw every man he ever faced (to that point in time) Can I be considered an expert if my butt was in the seats that night? If so...I'd be happy to comment on this fight sometime. Based on my very faulty memory.

The main theme of my memory was that Monzon was a rather cruel fighter. And once in charge, he had the persona of someone experimenting with a laboratory mouse. Far more interested in enjoying the fight, and the attention of the crowd, than ending the fight. Which seemed easily within his reach to do so in this case.

With Griffith and Briscoe and maybe Napoles I suspect he was actually in a fight. But on the night with Licata, no matter how you interpret the film he was not stressed at anytime. In fact I was shocked at the impression I got being there, vs what I saw/see on film in this fight. It does not capture the full feeling of just how robotic, mechanical, non emotional Monzon was. When he got hit, it was as if it meant nothing to him. And each and every strike he delivered appeared to be with lightening speed thought and typical precision. You could see the wheels turning in this guys head. And whether you can tell our not by the film it took him about 3 minute to completely figure this guy out, and he just went about disassembling him. Like a toy he was putting away for later use. lol. He seemed willing to accept some nonsense from his opponent in the spirit of almost enjoyment. It was a bit freakishly odd. Maybe it's jusy my eccentricity, but I was not surprised to find that he had the ability to murder someone.

This is where I learned best the HUGE difference between being at a fight, and watching a film.

Eyewitness accounts, when given from a disinterested viewpoint far far outweigh what the films tell us IMHO.

[scorpio83]

Thanks Il Duce I appreciate it. BTW, Emile Griffith was 36 not 34 when Tony Licata beat him 2 days after Griffith's 36th birthday. Also, why Monzon took 8 months after slaughtering Napoles until he finally defended his title against Mundine?

[BoxBuzz]

Dr. Box Buzz

I appreciate your contribution.

But we should stay within the 'Time Frame' here, as to not confuse.

One may ask >
What was the real reason that Carlos Monzon did not want to fight Rodrigo Valdes in May/June 1974 ?

An Argentinian 'Sex Pot'

Not sure she trumps Ursula...but she just might lol

Il Duce....you use the term "as not to confuse".....when did this value become a priority for you?

I thought confusion was pretty much the core of your mission statement. Did I get this wrong?)

[elmersalsa]

That is a pretty woman. The great Carlos Monzon was one of boxing's greatest giggolos. He had a way with the ladies.

[bodyblow999]

Butter face

[scorpio83]

Il Duce, I would please like to know how good was Gratien Tonna in the following category:

Style
Skills
Left jab
Left hook
Right hand
Power
Power Punch
Strength
Stamina
Durability
Footwork
Body Attack
Ring General
Defense
Chin

[elmersalsa]

Oh my goodness, with a woman like that, King Carlos had it made.

[elmersalsa]

February 1, 1975

Caracas, Venezuela

A very thin Carlos Monzon {Age; 32 years, 6 months} and girl-friend - Argentinian Sex-Post - Susana Giminez {Age; 31}

Carlos was 'globe-trotting' all over South America at this time, as Susana was very popular with the growing South American
Variety Television Show circuit.

Damn, he must feel like the luckiest middleweight in the planet right there.

[elmersalsa]

Susana 'Su' Giminez

The most popular woman in Argentinian Television.

And 'Brains' too....... Supposedly by 1998, she had a Net Worth of $180,000,000.

Wow, King Carlos was a BLESSED man.

[scorpio83]

That's great Il Duce about writing on Carlos Monzon's love life, but before you carry away, I could please tell me how good was Gratien Tonna? Style, skills, left jab, left hook, right hand, power, power punch, strength, stamina, durability, footwork, ring general, body attack, defense and chin.

[DaveyMac]

The Name of the film was "Mi Novia El..." which translates into "My Girlfriend". The original title was going to be "My Girlfriend the Transvestite" but it was changed.
In the film people believe that the Susana Gimenez character is a transvestite, but she isn't, she is actually a woman.

[scorpio83]

Thanks for the response Il Duce. Before you carry away with other subjects like Monzon's love life and the signing of his title defense against Tony Licata, could please tell me how good was his middleweight rival Rodrigo Valdez? What was his style? How good was his skills, left jab, left hook, right hand, power, power punch, strength, body attack, footwork, stamina, durability, speed, ring general, defense and chin?

[Giancarlo]

Thanks for the response Il Duce. Before you carry away with other subjects like Monzon's love life and the signing of his title defense against Tony Licata, could please tell me how good was his middleweight rival Rodrigo Valdez? What was his style? How good was his skills, left jab, left hook, right hand, power, power punch, strength, body attack, footwork, stamina, durability, speed, ring general, defense and chin?

[Tomasino]

Thanks for the response Il Duce. Before you carry away with other subjects like Monzon's love life and the signing of his title defense against Tony Licata, could please tell me how good was his middleweight rival Rodrigo Valdez? What was his style? How good was his skills, left jab, left hook, right hand, power, power punch, strength, body attack, footwork, stamina, durability, speed, ring general, defense and chin?

Is he for real? I can't help burst out laughing when he posts

[scorpio83]

Thanks for the response Il Duce. Before you post Monzon's title defense against Tony Licata, could please tell me how good was his middleweight rival Rodrigo Valdez? What was his style? How good was his skills, left jab, left hook, right hand, power, power punch, strength, body attack, footwork, stamina, durability, speed, ring general, defense and chin?

[scorpio83]

Il Duce I don't want to be demanding, but could you please tell me how good was Rodrigo Valdez? What I have read and watch, Valdez was the aggressive boxer-puncher and had an excellent right hand. He had a good defense and speedy punches.

He also had an excellent chin. Please tell me how good was his skills, left jabs, left hook, strength, body attack, stamina, durability, footwork and ring general.

[scorpio83]

Thanks Il Duce I appreciate it and sorry to bother you. Now let's get back to the Monzon vs. Licata fight in round 5.

[Tomasino]

Thanks Il Duce I appreciate it and sorry to bother you. Now let's get back to the Monzon vs. Licata fight in round 5.

[scorpio83]

Gratien Tonna looks like a French slugger/puncher version of Monzon. When you look at their fight in black and white, don't you feel confuse between the two except Monzon was the taller of the two?