BoxRec

Decagon wrote:Thomas was as shot as JFK by the time Holyfield and he fought. We have no idea if Holyfield had the mental strength he did in the 1980s that he did in the 1990s.

well judging by the way he fought that gruelling 15 rounder vs qawi, i think he had the mental strength.

did u see holyfield-dokes, that was a tough fight for both men, holy had to dig deep

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

evndrbsn wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:silk,


lately i been watching a lot of late 80s/early 90s holyfield and let me say im very impressed with evander. he looked awesome in the late 80s, a lot better than the version who fought lennox.

A lot better than the version that fought Tyson, too. Now do you agree that Holyfield was not in his prime when he fought Tyson?

yes i agree,

however holyfield put on an incredible preformance vs tyson, one of the best of his career. holy looked better in tyson fight than lewis fight. i also think tyson was just as past his prime but far more mentally screwed up and more rusty than evander holyfield. i do think prime for prime, based on styles tyson wins. however prime holyfield beats lennox. holyfield looked damm good in the late 80s, i mean damm good. much faster and better boxer. i think the 200lb version of holyfield was as good as any heavyweight version of holyfield.

i was very impressed with a peak holyfield! i havnt studied holyfield in the late 80s enough, im glad i have now.

Imo Evander would always have beaten Tyson because he was the mentally stronger fighter and would have broken even a prime 80s Tyson... Tyson may have been the more explosive and powerful fighter at his peak but boxing is as much about mentality and spirit as it is about the physical attributes... there was no way that Ali should have beaten Foreman in '74 but he did it with spirit and mental strength and also a damn good chin... Holyfield had simular advantages over Tyson and in his Prime Holyfield would have matched Mike for speed and pace as well... Evander wins every time...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Decagon wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i think tyson and holyfields best was the late 80s. not 1990s

Holyfield didn't beat anyone in the 1980s. How do you know he was at his best.

faded pinklon thomas, faded quick tillis, peak michael dokes, alex stewart


notice how in 89, holyfield beats stewart pretty conviningly by KO, and then in 93 holy struggled more and allows stewart to take him the distance? i think holy was a better fighter in late 80s.


i think holyfield looked much faster, quicker rexlexes in late 1980s

I always thought that when Holyfield lost to Bowe the first time, he made a major mistake by adding even more extra muscle. He looked horrid against Stewart in the rematch right after Bowe and he never again looked like the Holyfield of old in any subsequent fight. Holyfield was at his best in the 202-210 range. He had great stamina, speed, and a pretty good workrate. So to me, Holyfield's prime ended the night he lost to Bowe. He was in his prime when he lost the fight, he just fought a stupid fight to try to KO Bowe because he thought he was getting unfairly criticized in the press for not knocking people out. That extra muscle might have helped him beat Bowe in the rematch, but it effectively ended his most entertaining days and in my opinion, his peak days as a heavyweight.

I totally agree. I said in another post that Holyfield beat himself against Bowe by listening to the media saying a" good biggun will always beat a good smallun". But Tyson is always tailored made for Holyfield. No way he would ever beat him. Holyfield not only had the boxing ability more importantly he wasn't scared, had heart, could take a punch and was mentally a tough bast**d!

Holyfield V Lewis is always close. I don't think either would stop the other although Lewis would be more likely to. Both great boxers. It would all come down to what fighters turned up on the night. If Lewis was in shape, took it seriously and used his jab he would win. If Holyfield set a very high tempo he could outbox Lewis. But for me I would still go for Lewis most times.

BB –

Holy beat a PEAK Dokes!!! Are you serious?? You think Dokes was at his peak when he fought Holyfield?

And I do agree that Holyfield looked better against Tyson than he did against LL and it’s partly due to the fact that Holy was a bit farther over the hill against LL, but it was more likely due to the fact that LL’s style presented many more problems for Holy than Tyson’s style. In general, Holfield had more problems with guys with a good jab than guys who wanted to fight in the trenches, and the Holyfield-Tyson and Lewis-Holyfield fights are perfect examples of this. If they were both in their primes, I think Holyfield still beats Tyson because he was a much smarter and creative fighter than Tyson. And I also think that Lewis would still have presented a prime Holyfield with problems because of his long jab, and deference to direct engagement.

silkov wrote:

Decagon wrote:No, that's an opinion. Holyfield wasn't coming off three years of inactivity and Dempsey was. That is a fact.

Your telling me that after all his wars and his losses to Bowe and Moorer, Evander was still at his peak against lewis?... watch Holyfield vs Lewis 1 or 2 and then watch some of Evanders fights from the late 80s to early 90s and tell me that he hadn't slowed down a mighty lot... a peak Holyfield would have outworked Lewis... as it was both fights were mighty close... all the controversy about the 1st fight has made people forget that it was a very close fight and the 2nd fight was even closer...

I agree silkov, Holyfeield was definetly not in his prime when he fought Lewis.....and Holyfield still gave Lewis a hell of a time in the rematch and in my opinion Holyfield won. During the 80's Holyfield was unstoppable and his heart is up there with fellow legendary Heavyweight Larry Holmes in that era. A prime Holyfield of the Douglas, Dokes, Foreman etc fights wipes out Lewis in 3 rounds max. I just cannot see Lewis take Evander's agression.

Decagon wrote:So, Holyfield goes the distance with a 43-year-old Foreman, but knocks out Lewis? That makes no sense.

You seem to forget that old Foreman has never been knocked out much less floored. Old Foreman also never ONCE sat on his stool through out all his fights. Its an insult to compare Lewis to a legenadary fighter like Foreman.

Decagon wrote:So, Holyfield goes the distance with a 43-year-old Foreman, but knocks out Lewis? That makes no sense.

While I disagree mostly with what RazorKO says, he isn't too far off the mark here. I think that if Holyfield would have fought Lennox Lewis instead of Riddick Bowe in fall of 1992, Holyfield emerges as a TKO victor, probably around rounds 3-6. Prime vs. prime, though, I think Lewis gives Holyfield a fit but Holyfield still scores a stoppage.

Comparing Foreman's chin (43 years old or not) to Lennox Lewis' is not really fair. Foreman had one of the better chins of the last half decade in the heavyweight division while Lewis had basically an adequate chin. I think Lewis takes a better shot than he's given credit for, but his chin doesn't compare to Foreman's, age 23 or 43. Same goes for Larry Holmes.

Prime Holyfield (1989-1992) TKO 10 Prime Lewis (1997-2000)
1992 Holyfield TKO 3 1992 Lewis
1995 Holyfield W 12 1995 Lewis
1997 Holyfield W 12 1997 Lewis
*1999 Lewis W 12 1999 Holyfield

*I feel Lewis won the first fight 117-111, I think the second fight was dead even at 114-114. There really should have been a third fight, and there would have been, if Joe Cortez correctly ruled the body punch KO against Ruiz in round 10 of the second fight instead of calling it foul. Probably would have helped if Lewis didn't get KO'd a month later, also.

Decagon wrote:

RazorKO wrote:You seem to forget that old Foreman has never been knocked out much less floored. Old Foreman also never ONCE sat on his stool through out all his fights. Its an insult to compare Lewis to a legenadary fighter like Foreman.

Foreman was an old fart who threw two good punches in his second career. All he did was cover up round after round. Heck, in his prime, he was sent to the canvas by light-hitting Jimmy Young.

In all fairness, it was more exhaustion that sent Foreman to the ground in round 12 against Jimmy Young. Young more or less just guided him there.

evndrbsn wrote:

Decagon wrote:

RazorKO wrote:You seem to forget that old Foreman has never been knocked out much less floored. Old Foreman also never ONCE sat on his stool through out all his fights. Its an insult to compare Lewis to a legenadary fighter like Foreman.

Foreman was an old fart who threw two good punches in his second career. All he did was cover up round after round. Heck, in his prime, he was sent to the canvas by light-hitting Jimmy Young.

In all fairness, it was more exhaustion that sent Foreman to the ground in round 12 against Jimmy Young. Young more or less just guided him there.

It was definetly exhaustion Evndrbsn, I recently rewwatched the fight and Young didnt even connect his right on Foreman. Young's right grazly hit Foreman and Foreman fell on one knee and was up before the count of 1. You could see Foreman's left arm trying to hand on the ropes to keep his balance.

Decagon wrote:

RazorKO wrote:

Decagon wrote:You seem to forget that old Foreman has never been knocked out much less floored. Old Foreman also never ONCE sat on his stool through out all his fights. Its an insult to compare Lewis to a legenadary fighter like Foreman.

Foreman was an old fart who threw two good punches in his second career. All he did was cover up round after round. Heck, in his prime, he was sent to the canvas by light-hitting Jimmy Young.

Hey Decagon, Your usually pretty credible, but that is one interesting take. Both Ali and Young sent him down, and I guess your going to say that these guys powered him out, but thats not my take. I think most people would agree that these happened as a result of him wearing himself out against two of the most elusive HW's to ever lace on the gloves. They didnt "knock him out" as much as simply get out of his way, as he fell from foolishly chasing these guys.

I'm a big Ali and Young fan but often they did not KO' there victims as much as let the clock run out on their victims stamina supply. Chess players as boxers both of them. But to just say they KO'd him is leaving a pretty important part of the story out of the discussion. Especially in light of him later on not getting knocked down again. I'd say his "chin" was granite, even if he didn't always have the wisdom to pace himself correctly.

Holy beat a PEAK Dokes!!! Are you serious?? You think Dokes was at his peak when he fought Holyfield?

yep,


i believe dokes was drug free at the time. all i know is dokes looked better on film vs holyfield than in any other fight in his career. it was dokes best fight

Decagon wrote:So, Holyfield goes the distance with a 43-year-old Foreman, but knocks out Lewis? That makes no sense.

Lennox Lewis was hardly George Foreman for christsake... its ridiculous to even compare the two...

Decagon wrote:

RazorKO wrote:

Decagon wrote:You seem to forget that old Foreman has never been knocked out much less floored. Old Foreman also never ONCE sat on his stool through out all his fights. Its an insult to compare Lewis to a legenadary fighter like Foreman.

Foreman was an old fart who threw two good punches in his second career. All he did was cover up round after round. Heck, in his prime, he was sent to the canvas by light-hitting Jimmy Young.

George Foreman an old fart?... what you been watching man?... I think you've read Lewis' biography too many times...

Decagon wrote:I'm no fan of the old version of Foreman. He lost nearly every round of every fight he had against someone in the top 15 or so.

i agree i think the 90s foreman is overated

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Holy beat a PEAK Dokes!!! Are you serious?? You think Dokes was at his peak when he fought Holyfield?

yep,


i believe dokes was drug free at the time. all i know is dokes looked better on film vs holyfield than in any other fight in his career. it was dokes best fight

Dokes was in his prime when he fought Coetzee. Dokes was past it and hooked on drugs when he fought Holyfield. That doesnt say that Dokes was crap when he fought Holy, Aaron Pryor was on drugs when he fought Arguello and Pyror peformed remarkably.

But Coetzee whooped a prime Dokes where 6 years later, gave a great HW in Evander one of his toughest fights of his career.

Decagon wrote:

evndrbsn wrote:There really should have been a third fight, and there would have been, if Joe Cortez correctly ruled the body punch KO against Ruiz in round 10 of the second fight instead of calling it foul. Probably would have helped if Lewis didn't get KO'd a month later, also.

Even if it had been ruled a punch, Ruiz was waaaaay ahead in that fight. Ruiz has shown a great ability to recover from being hurt, and to survive nearly anything. He probably would have gotten up before 10 and held on for dear life until the round was over.

Ruiz was not waaaaay ahead in the fight going into the 10th. Holyfield lost a point in the 10th and got knocked down in the 11th, which put him really far behind. If Cortez started counting, Ruiz would have stayed on the canvas and complained it was a low blow all the way up to the count of 10.

i think dokes was better vs holyfield than when he fought coetzee

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i think dokes was better vs holyfield than when he fought coetzee

Dokes was in pretty good shape against Holyfieild and was clean I believe at the time, but he had lost quite a bit of speed especially from his legs and was certainly not as mobile as he had been in the early 80s...

Decagon wrote:

evndrbsn wrote:Ruiz was not waaaaay ahead in the fight going into the 10th. Holyfield lost a point in the 10th and got knocked down in the 11th, which put him really far behind. If Cortez started counting, Ruiz would have stayed on the canvas and complained it was a low blow all the way up to the count of 10.

The first half of your post was good, but the last half wasn't. Ruiz was fouled all over the place against Golota, but he kept getting up.

He might have been getting up against Golota because he was really getting hit low (and his protector would have blocked a lot of the force). He wouldn't have gotten back up against Holyfield (and didn't before the toll of 10) because he was KO'd by a great left hook to the body and the wind was sucked out of him. Ruiz had it set in his mind he was going to act if he could to fool Joe Cortez and he did.